Another potential danger/risk for talking to MHP's (Mental Health Professionals)

[TAW122]

In so many of my threads lambasting and criticizing therapy, psychiatry, and even the mental health system (especially in the US and even around the world in general), I have just recently thought of yet another potential risk and danger for going there, especially going back to the days when I visited mental health professionals and attended counseling sessions. The potential risk and danger is that even if think you are safe just by tip-toeing around issues or the questions they ask you, you may be in for a (potential) rude awakening. This is because they are really adept at manipulation and even putting you at ease in order to siphon information out from you to potentially use against you. You think you could outsmart them or push their buttons but ultimately, they have power over you and can ruin your life in many ways (mainly involuntary force and treatment) resulting in financial hardship, loss of profession, loss of certain rights and privileges, etc.

Let's use a different example to illustrate my point. Remember when you sometimes get telemarketer ads and other potential scammers on the other end of the line (maybe not even telemarketing scams but just other kinds of scams) and you think "Nah, I'll never fall for them because I'm too smart to do so." Well, you may think that, but scammers and other manipulative people are getting more and more creative in their ways to scam their victims so while first they won't outright go from 1-100 in a second, they will gradually put you ease, which then your guard goes down and you lose your inhibitions and are more easily mentally and psychologically manipulated. After your defenses and senses are compromised and weakened, they go in (slowly most of the time) for the kill, like a hunter stalking its' prey before pouncing on said prey. When you are in a state of a false sense of security, comfort, and trust, you are more likely to slip up and admit to things or make mistakes. These 'mistakes' would then end up costing you your freedom, a hefty medical bill for treatment you never agreed or asked for (as a consequence of involuntary treatment and hospitalization). In other words, it is NOT a good idea to try to outsmart the scammer in this case, you are always playing with fire and one day in the future, you will (inevitably) get burned when your luck runs out.

So back to the point about mental health professionals. So whenever you talk to one, they parse everything you say and basically treat each of your statements like a cache of potential juicy information for them (to later diagnose and even force treatment on you). The more you talk, the more chances they have to extract (even through deception and trickery, manipulation, mental games and what not) information from you to potentially use against you. Sometimes, when you don't cooperate, they apply pressure to get a specific answer or reaction from you so they could use that as ammo against you and build a case on you. It's almost similar to being in an interrogation and the interrogator (police detective) decides to put you at ease and into a false sense of security and trust so that you would (almost) voluntarily do their job for them by incriminating yourself.

I want to emphasize two points in regards to their intentions by the way.
First off, they don't care for the person's misery, solving said person's problems, but see you as a patient/client to financially milk you for every penny (again not all MHP's but most of them, at least by standard). It's their goal to fulfill the interests of society and government (as well as their selfish values) and then put you on a cycle of therapy (that leads nowhere) and medication (some of which have nasty side effects). They don't care that your situation sucks, or made worse due to their meddling and actions.

The secondary intention and/or goal on their agenda is redirect and reindoctrinate your beliefs and view of the world so that you would become another number in the collective (paying taxes, getting shafted & treated like shit, injustice, getting your issues dismissed and more). I cannot remember which person said this, but it was back many years ago when Yahoo! Answers was popular (the Reddit/twitter of the times), there was someone who compared how therapy is useless, doesn't provide a solution, but rather just a list and set of tools of coping with problems. He stated to the effect that therapy and counseling is like a mine cart that has gone awry, derailed, and what not, and the therapist (railroad worker/maintenance worker) only seeks to put the mine cart back on track, regardless of the reasoning, the background, and the cost. Imho it's quite disturbing and damaging but rarely does anyone do or say anything about it (except people who are pro-choice or similar to us). They simply fail to and cannot accept that not everyone is a mine cart wanting to go back on the rail line (which the rail line consists of the daily grind and indocrinated path as well as society and government's expectations of a working wageslave, consumer, etc.).

Somewhere in another thread somewhere I have also talked about how therapy is bullshit in a 3-step process, which I'll mention briefly. The 3-step process of what a therpaist or MHP does is:
1) First, they invalidate and dismiss the person's claim as absurd, too high standard, invalid.
2) Then second, afterwards gaslight (sow seeds of doubt) and guilt & shame as to put you down, weaken you further.
3) Finally (3rd step) is to redirect your problems (after dismissing them) and re-indoctrinate you into what society and government thinks you should be. The third step is basically when they force their values on you and even go as far as to use threats to get you to oblige (in some cases, not all).

Other threads I have made criticizing and lambasting therapy, mental health system

Therapy isn't for everyone

My experiences with therapy and counseling

Sick and tired of people and society always advocating therapy and counseling

Reclarification of why therapy/counseling isn't for me

Does anyone else have similar thoughts or experiences?

 

[faust]

As usual, I see a useful post! My comment, of course, will not be so long and comprehensive, but I will try to explain everything that is in my head.
This whole system is very similar to the school days, when we knew the answers to the tests, but it was necessary to adjust the solution. So going to a psychiatrist is nothing more than an adjustment to a specific diagnosis. First, they listen to you, and then try to create a dynamic stereotype of what is happening. If a healthy person comes to a psychiatrist, then they are likely to leave with some kind of diagnosis. I will not undertake to assert that psychiatrists have any requirements for the sale of certain drugs, although this is also not excluded. As we say, any caprice for your money. That is their bread.

 

[disabledandhopeless]

The reasons why I don't like therapists. Thanks for the post.

 

[262653]

Hah, I was about to leave a short comment about this topic, on your previous post about self-incrimination. Wanted to compare the manipulation tactics that mental health workers employ, to that of detectives and prosecutors, but you described it (and so much more) better that I ever hoped for. I agree with you on so many points here... but I don't know how to talk properly. I struggle for 10-20 minutes trying to find the proper words to fill a sentence or two, so I'll stop here, in compassion to my well-being.

*I guess I could just compare life enforcement with law enforcement systems, to point out at the substantial aspects of mental health systems that are commonly overlooked. They have power, and priorities higher than the well-being of their "clients/patients". Treat/tread with caution.

 

[Steve Vermont]

I guess my view of MHPs is the same as my view of sex workers. I don't expect them to see me as a person or deeply empathize with me: I expect them to do what we agreed to do for pay in a professional and responsible manner. But a sex worker is not your boy/girlfriend and a MHP is not your buddy or super secret confidante. MHPs also have to judge, for example, if you represent a threat to others. That is part of their job. They have real consequences they face if things go tits up. You shouldn't expect them to be otherwise. That said, I have found that they have helped me more often than not.

 

[ygornimoy]

My experience with a psychiatrist goes as follows:

I was raised in a family of lunatics. For example, when I was a child, I broke my nose playing. To this day, I still have the fractured nose because they refused to take me to a doctor. I also had a difficulty pronouncing certain letters, including R and the S. They refused to take me to a speech therapist until I rebelled against them at 17. They believed that God, the Virgin Mary, and saints would heal me, and that resulted in the abuses I described.

I was in Orlando, Florida, as an international student from Panama. I got there when I was 18, and left when I was 30. Around the age of 21, I started pacing from one place to another, couldn't stay still. My mom and sister lived with me, and since I was an international student, and they were not, they had no business being in Orlando in the first place. I complained about my lack of concentration and pacing issues, and my mom refused me to let me see a shrink because she believed prayer would solve all my issues. I couldn't do it on my own because international students cannot work, and she was exploiting her father, treating him like a cash cow in order to be in Orlando with me and my sister. That explains how manipulative my family is. They didn't allow me to be on my own at all.

Let's make a story short, when I was 48, (in Panama, not the US) I went to see a psychiatrist because of too much pacing, constant daydreaming, and inability to stay still. I told her about how crazy my family is. I spent way too much time talking about them, and she immediately noticed my preoccupation with them. She prescribed two medications: Olanzapine and Klonopin (for anxiety).

Olanzapine made me sleep for 12 hours each day, and Klonopin made me sleep for another two hours. That's 14 hours sleeping. Other than that, I started seeing the world with different eyes. The world became a "hippie"-fied version of itself, where everything is flowers and rainbows.

After two sessions, she told me she wanted me to talk to a shrink because she wanted a psychological profile. The psychologist gave me this stupid questionnaire with dozens of questions that took me like 90 minutes to fill (Spanish translation of a questionnaire developed in the US). And she noticed I was too preoccupied with my family. She also noticed I have weird hand gestures with stereotyped speech (whatever that means), and she managed to make me say I have never had a girlfriend, and I rarely talk about relationships, if ever.

In both cases, they asked me if I heard voices. In both cases I said "no", which is true; I have never heard voices or seen things that aren't there.

I got diagnosed with schizotypal personality disorder, severe anxiety, repressed anger, and severe childhood traumas.

I never went back because those medications did nothing for me except making me sleep way too much. Fortunately I got the psychological report from the psychiatrist. She gave me a copy. According to her, I have had substance abuse issues (not true), and problems with the law (not true). She also seemed to believe that I had imagined most of the horrors I had endured with my crazy family (BS). Even my cousins told me to stop going because if something bad happened, they would think it was me, which is dumb, given the fact that Panama has no serial killers, or mass shootings (our crime is mostly gang-related), but I agreed with them, perhaps it was a good idea to stop going there.

I could go on and on and on, but this post is not about me. :)

 

[TAW122]

@Burzolog I agree with your sentiments and last sentence. Yes, this is why I treat them no different than if I was interacting with law enforcement because they too, have the power to determine the fate and/or affect an individual's personal freedom, civil liberties.

@Steve Vermont What you said is definitely true. MHP's do have a guideline and legal requirements that they are bound by (not just civil but also criminal penalties if they violate them or fail to act in a situation that they should have - legal liabilities even for inaction). I'm glad that you are able to find them helpful and I wish you the best in your future.

@ygornimoy I'm sorry to hear about your upbringing and situation, it is horrible. Also, all the horrors in the medical and psychiatric industry did not help at all, but only wasted your time and money. I applaud and agree with your decision to turn around never go back. Sometimes, there is simply just no solution or help for certain problems and that is something that most people find hard to believe, let alone respect.

 

[TimeToBiteTheDust]

Psych therapists only care about money. They don't give a fuck about our mental health.

 

[Steve Vermont]

I dunno. The drugs I am taking and the conversations I am having with my psychiatrist seem to be doing more harm than good. But Inhave had some truly horrible therapists, too, and others who just wanted to drug me.
Therapists, sex workers and priests are all pretty much the same: you're spending money and you shouldn't fool yourself about what you're spending it for or why the other person does what they do. They don't do it because they care about you.

And yet, what they do can be enough on some cases. You most definitely have to shop around.

 

[Xunnsu]

I've never had any issues with the therapists I've spoken to, including the ones in the psyche ward. Actually, they're typically the only people I like to talk to when it comes to mental health. Psychiatrists, I've never gotten to spend much time with, because they've always been too busy at the sliding scale places I've been to. And physicians typically don't know much about the meds you need or anything about you.

 

[darkhorse256]

Yes, this is exactly what I think about therapy. My therapist constantly tries to make me feel guilty for worrying about things or having high expectations of myself. Ultimately, my main issue is that I was sexually assaulted and have PTSD from it but she seems to think that my PTSD is caused by stress from school so she keeps aiming to reduce my school stress when that isn't the issue at all. I mean, I do hate university but even then, she keeps telling me to continue it. She thinks I'll do fine just because I've always done well in uni but man, uni is the most draining thing out there. I think she just wants me to get my degree and find a job just so I can be a "model citizen" and pay taxes. But to me, that's not a life worth living.

 

[BitterlyAlive]

I just want to say I always enjoy reading your posts. They're always very informative and relevant. Thank you.

 

[TAW122]

@Xunnsu Interesting experiences you had with the therapists and as for psychiatrists, well they are the medicine prescribers and are the ones writing prescriptions. They do go through medical school and the whole gamut of requirements before they are able to practice unlike therapists who go through a Bachelor's, then a Master's as well as getting a license to practice.

@darkhorse256 Yeah, I hate it when MHP's think they know what's best while ignoring the actual causes and problems of the patient. I think most of them (not all) do that and similar to the mine cart analogy, they don't want to solve problems, but rather dismiss it, gaslight you, and then redirect/reindoctrinate you to correctthink.

@BitterlyAlive Thanks for your support, I'm glad to have helped people understand things on a deeper level as well as critically think of things.

 

[darkhorse256]

@Xunnsu Interesting experiences you had with the therapists and as for psychiatrists, well they are the medicine prescribers and are the ones writing prescriptions. They do go through medical school and the whole gamut of requirements before they are able to practice unlike therapists who go through a Bachelor's, then a Master's as well as getting a license to practice.

@darkhorse256 Yeah, I hate it when MHP's think they know what's best while ignoring the actual causes and problems of the patient. I think most of them (not all) do that and similar to the mine cart analogy, they don't want to solve problems, but rather dismiss it, gaslight you, and then redirect/reindoctrinate you to correctthink.

@BitterlyAlive Thanks for your support, I'm glad to have helped people understand things on a deeper level as well as critically think of things.

I wish more people could understand that therapy isn't about helping you. It's under the guise of helping you but it's to just turn you into a functioning citizen. But if I don't go for therapy, my loved ones get mad because they think I'm not trying to get better. I actually prefer my psychiatrist because at least he does not pretend to care. I'll tell him my issues and he'll just say "mmm, ok, how about this drug instead?" I've been on medication for 6 years and nothing has changed the way I feel about life. It just helps me "function" better so my parents don't get pissed.

 

[Xunnsu]

I think one problem with people (including the medical community), is they are wired and sold on the idea that every problem has a solution. So in their mind, if you want to ctb, then it's not because their methods don't work, it's because you're fucking up. In their mind, as long as you do what they say, you won't try to ctb. People that try to ctb and/or aren't functioning properly are being lazy or disobedient. Because to them, there is always an answer, you're just choosing not to acknowledge it.

Another issue I see with people, in general, is that they don't comprehend anything that is not a relatable and/or typical human behavior. If you are dealing with severe mental health issues that are *weird* then you might as well tell them you're being raped by a ghost. Because they will treat you like someone crying wolf. It is completely beyond their comprehension, that a human being might be experiencing something out of the ordinary that is causing them to not make money or want to ctb. It just doesn't compute.

There is definitely a connection between believability vs functioning as a member of society. People actually believe in a lot of weird shit, like religion. If you tell them God helped you win a football game, they may be inclined to believe you. But any mention of an invisible mental health disorder, that prevents you from succeeding and/or wanting to live, immediately seems implausible to them. You're being overly dramatic or making things up.

 

[IrRegularjoe]

Buy your medical file. They lie and are very unprofessional and biased to their own agenda.

 

[TAW122]

I wish more people could understand that therapy isn't about helping you. It's under the guise of helping you but it's to just turn you into a functioning citizen. But if I don't go for therapy, my loved ones get mad because they think I'm not trying to get better. I actually prefer my psychiatrist because at least he does not pretend to care. I'll tell him my issues and he'll just say "mmm, ok, how about this drug instead?" I've been on medication for 6 years and nothing has changed the way I feel about life. It just helps me "function" better so my parents don't get pissed.

The first two sentences are spot on. I believe that it fits the third step in their process of treatment or the session, which is redirection of perspective, values, and interests as well as reindoctrination of the patient into a functioning citizen (wageslave, a cog in the machine). I'm sorry that your parents and other people in your life don't understand and are making you seek help against your choice (by pressure and guilt).

I think one problem with people (including the medical community), is they are wired and sold on the idea that every problem has a solution. So in their mind, if you want to ctb, then it's not because their methods don't work, it's because you're fucking up. In their mind, as long as you do what they say, you won't try to ctb. People that try to ctb and/or aren't functioning properly are being lazy or disobedient. Because to them, there is always an answer, you're just choosing not to acknowledge it.

Another issue I see with people, in general, is that they don't comprehend anything that is not a relatable and/or typical human behavior. If you are dealing with severe mental health issues that are *weird* then you might as well tell them you're being raped by a ghost. Because they will treat you like someone crying wolf. It is completely beyond their comprehension, that a human being might be experiencing something out of the ordinary that is causing them to not make money or want to ctb. It just doesn't compute.

There is definitely a connection between believability vs functioning as a member of society. People actually believe in a lot of weird shit, like religion. If you tell them God helped you win a football game, they may be inclined to believe you. But any mention of an invisible mental health disorder, that prevents you from succeeding and/or wanting to live, immediately seems implausible to them. You're being overly dramatic or making things up.

The first paragraph is exactly on the spot, on point about the system itself as a whole. Hell, even questioning or doubting it results in a disorder according to them which is ridiculous. They would then be no better or different than religion, just a secular religion instead and that they believe they are absolutely right (even if they aren't). Kind of like the Bible where even questioning God is considered a 'sin' or wrong action (I digress a bit though). Good example in the 2nd paragraph because most people don't get it and aren't comfortable with it. As for your last point, yeah humans are strange in that regard. I think it is partly due to religion being around for much longer than modern psychiatry and also of course societal values and what not with stigma and mental health stuff (another topic/thread altogether) compounds the problem even further.

Buy your medical file. They lie and are very unprofessional and biased to their own agenda.

I have heard about that too and I don't think those people have our interests at heart, mostly money first and then whatever else later. It's sickening and disgusting. They would do anything they can (within their bounds of course) to siphon as much money as they can from the patient and if the patient doesn't have money, well according to them, they are cured, they are healthy, etc.

 

[MartyByrde]

My psychiatrist has kept me from killing myself, and perhaps others since 2011. My responses to medication haven't gone well, but he doesn't give up. I find his willingness to keep trying helps me to do so as well.

I pay my psychotherapist $20 per 1 hour session on a sliding scale. I seriously doubt she's in it for the money.

I know there are too many lousy practitioners of all kinds out there. However, there are some good ones too. Unfortunately, even the very best cannot fix everything. I could benefit from taking more initiative, breaking out of the routines and comfort zone I've developed, which I know aren't working for me.

 

[Secrets1]

Psych therapists only care about money. They don't give a fuck about our mental health.

sorry to break it to you but this comment is utter bullshit. They sure as hell aren't perfect nor are they like this either. Tough job, varying skill set. I blame myself more than anyone else for my own problems and that's what's approoriate. If it was all about $ they'd be in a different field.

 

[terry_a_davis]

I've had consultations with at a guess with 9 or 10 different psychiatrists over the years and met even more mental health nurses. None appeared to have any agenda, none appeared bad, I'd say I remember 1 being a bit stand off'ish, and a few were brilliant, I felt they genuinely cared.

I did for years think they weren't on my side and not to be trusted (although even then I didn't hate them or anything), and when I finally got on meds that worked my mental illness went into remission and i realised that all along they were on my side and were trying to help me. Literally saved my life and i'm forever grateful to them.

 

[MyStateKilledMe]

I'm cool with psychiatrists, because they at least give you medications to actually lift your mood, even if temporarily. I despise talk therapists, because they make money off your sadness, and don't actually help you. Rehashing your feelings to "process" them doesn't do jack! I just can't bring my self to trust them as an occupation. Occasionally, you may run into a compassionate soul or two who will cure your depression. But overall, they're as trustworthy as the police: a few individuals may be fine, but their occupation is not.

 

[TAW122]

@MartyByrde I'm happy to hear found someone that works for your situation. I fully agree with your second to last sentence and that is indeed true, I just wished more people would acknowledge and accept that fact (which sadly many don't nor are comfortable to face the reality of the situation, not all problems and no matter how good a professional is, sometimes some problems just have no solutions.).

@Secrets1 Well, to be fair, I believe a majority of them are mostly for the money and/or job security (doing and following their organization's protocol as well as the state law that they practice in), then patient's interests second or third. It might be more accurate to say that most of them are just doing their job and are jaded, wanting the dough to roll in, but of course there are a few gems out there. The only thing is that they are so far and few in between the many bad ones, that the average patient (or even prospective patient) simple doesn't have the time or money, not to mention the risk they take testing the waters with bad ones before they find a good one. Then, by stroke of luck or many dozens of MHPs later, thousands (or more) of money spent, and years even, they found that gem, there is still no guarantee that said gem (as good as he/she is) can solve the patient's problem. Finally, there is shitty society and general public as well as MHPs putting the onus of recovery solely on the patient, which I mean sometimes a patient's problems just simply have no solution and only death would free them of suffering. But of course, society nor MHPs are willing to acknowledge this very fact and instead blame the patient as well as holding an absolute stance of that every problem has a solution (which isn't universally true).

@terry_a_davis I'm glad that you found them helpful and while there are people who came out 'better' from their experiences with MHPs, there are so many more that have suffered greatly due to them, some even pushed over the edge.

I'm cool with psychiatrists, because they at least give you medications to actually lift your mood, even if temporarily. I despise talk therapists, because they make money off your sadness, and don't actually help you. Rehashing your feelings to "process" them doesn't do jack! I just can't bring my self to trust them as an occupation. Occasionally, you may run into a compassionate soul or two who will cure your depression. But overall, they're as trustworthy as the police: a few individuals may be fine, but their occupation is not.

Well said. As for psychiatrists, yes I could see that being helpful for some people who wish to get prescriptions for their conditions so fair point. I fully agree with you about the talk therapists (majority of them of course barring the one rare exceptional gem). Also your last sentence is spot on, I view them nothing more than just plainclothes civilian law enforcement sans actual arrest powers like actual police but yet have the authority to make the call for 'actual' detainment and confinement based on their "opinion" of the patient (whether he/she is a danger to him/herself or others). Scary nevertheless.

 

[Secrets1]

@MartyByrde I'm happy to hear found someone that works for your situation. I fully agree with your second to last sentence and that is indeed true, I just wished more people would acknowledge and accept that fact (which sadly many don't nor are comfortable to face the reality of the situation, not all problems and no matter how good a professional is, sometimes some problems just have no solutions.).

@Secrets1 Well, to be fair, I believe a majority of them are mostly for the money and/or job security (doing and following their organization's protocol as well as the state law that they practice in), then patient's interests second or third. It might be more accurate to say that most of them are just doing their job and are jaded, wanting the dough to roll in, but of course there are a few gems out there. The only thing is that they are so far and few in between the many bad ones, that the average patient (or even prospective patient) simple doesn't have the time or money, not to mention the risk they take testing the waters with bad ones before they find a good one. Then, by stroke of luck or many dozens of MHPs later, thousands (or more) of money spent, and years even, they found that gem, there is still no guarantee that said gem (as good as he/she is) can solve the patient's problem. Finally, there is shitty society and general public as well as MHPs putting the onus of recovery solely on the patient, which I mean sometimes a patient's problems just simply have no solution and only death would free them of suffering. But of course, society nor MHPs are willing to acknowledge this very fact and instead blame the patient as well as holding an absolute stance of that every problem has a solution (which isn't universally true).

@terry_a_davis I'm glad that you found them helpful and while there are people who came out 'better' from their experiences with MHPs, there are so many more that have suffered greatly due to them, some even pushed over the edge.


Well said. As for psychiatrists, yes I could see that being helpful for some people who wish to get prescriptions for their conditions so fair point. I fully agree with you about the talk therapists (majority of them of course barring the one rare exceptional gem). Also your last sentence is spot on, I view them nothing more than just plainclothes civilian law enforcement sans actual arrest powers like actual police but yet have the authority to make the call for 'actual' detainment and confinement based on their "opinion" of the patient (whether he/she is a danger to him/herself or others). Scary nevertheless.

I feel you.. the system is ridiculous. It's not fun for providers either with certain "industry standards" that aren't absolute truths. In my experience good ones are tough to find but it's doable with tact and sometimes luck. I see the problem with them is being booked, not hidden. Some therapists can help tremendously with certain issues but not others or their own personal life shit may interfere with their ability at a given time. It's not black and white.

 

[ygornimoy]

My psychiatrist has kept me from killing myself, and perhaps others since 2011. My responses to medication haven't gone well, but he doesn't give up. I find his willingness to keep trying helps me to do so as well.

I pay my psychotherapist $20 per 1 hour session on a sliding scale. I seriously doubt she's in it for the money.

I know there are too many lousy practitioners of all kinds out there. However, there are some good ones too. Unfortunately, even the very best cannot fix everything. I could benefit from taking more initiative, breaking out of the routines and comfort zone I've developed, which I know aren't working for me.

here in Panama, they charge like $60 per hour, and the average salary is around $700. I have seen programmers getting paid $600 per month, so charging that is crazy. In a way, you could say that "being crazy" is here is truly expensive.

 

[MartyByrde]

here in Panama, they charge like $60 per hour, and the average salary is around $700. I have seen programmers getting paid $600 per month, so charging that is crazy. In a way, you could say that "being crazy" is here is truly expensive.

Oh yeah, here in the states they generally run $120/HR. I felt so fortunate to finally be approved for the $20 sessions (took over 6 months waiting period). I got in 8 sessions with a reasonably decent therapist and felt slight progress. Then quarantine came and they closed the program for now. I hope I can get back in soon. I'm done trying to manage this on my own.

I hope you're able to get what you need as well.