Discussion An example of the hypocrisy of pro-lifers

[Daxter_87]

When debating about antinatalism, I have come across arguments like: "You don't have a right to impose your views on other people". But the fact is that I'm not imposing anything, I'm just making arguments. I'm not putting a gun to your head and telling you not to have children. If someone makes a video on antinatalism, the right to die, etc., absolutely nobody is forced to watch such video if they don't wish to.

And here comes the most hilarious part. They tell you not to impose your views on others, yet these same people are obnoxiously imposing life on their children without any kind of consideration whatsoever. They force people to live by not allowing them to CTB in a peaceful manner. They restrict relatively painless and reliable methods of suicide (just look at what happened recently with SN). And that is not imposing? Come on, you must be kidding now. Such hypocrisy.

 

[CTB Dream]

Hypcri species all see, prolif natal brainle, 8b brainle forcd natal nobod sY any but one say no rordct species think force. All no sns. This species ape Monky brainle no more know how this species injury damage me cuz hypcru ,ya species think no sns species poop mchn

 

[RatMaster250]

Exactly! My body my choice!

 

[FuneralCry]

Those people are just so incredibly delusional and hypocritical, but anyway no matter what it will always be inhumane to deny people the right to a peaceful, dignified death and procreation will always be disgusting and unacceptable. Selfishly forcing the burden that is existence onto other people and as a result creating unnecesary suffering in such a hellish reality could never be justified.

 

[Ambivalent1]

They are beasts of the field following instinct.

 

[leavingsoon99]

Well, for starters, debating a human is futile in and of itself. Humans are emotional, even when trying to be logical. They're not welcoming nor accepting of nearly ANY point of view that is different from theirs. This society has attached a negative connotation to death. Therefore, life becomes an inalienable truth and self-evident entity rather than what it actually is... an experience. So, life is good no matter what. Crippled? Be happy, it's life. Experiencing racism? Hey, it's life. Suck it up!!! Slavery? At least you're alive!!! Cancer? Hey, it's all part of "god's plan". Just leave it in his hands. IT'S LIFE!!! Abused? WE ALL experience bad things every once in a while. It's called LIFE!!!

See, life is seen as a self-evident good. Therefore, in this society, the human is going to do everything to protect it. Any deviation from what we're programmed with in this society is immediately weeded out and dealt with in the harshest of ways. It's why suicidality is now high up on the human agenda.

Don't take your life. NO!!! You have to go with one of the human approved ways to die. Stray bullet? Wrong place, wrong time. Car wreck? God has a plan. Suicide? HOW DARE YOU!?

 

[Rational man]

Well, for starters, debating a human is futile in and of itself. Humans are emotional, even when trying to be logical. They're not welcoming nor accepting of nearly ANY point of view that is different from theirs. This society has attached a negative connotation to death. Therefore, life becomes an inalienable truth and self-evident entity rather than what it actually is... an experience. So, life is good no matter what. Crippled? Be happy, it's life. Experiencing racism? Hey, it's life. Suck it up!!! Slavery? At least you're alive!!! Cancer? Hey, it's all part of "god's plan". Just leave it in his hands. IT'S LIFE!!! Abused? WE ALL experience bad things every once in a while. It's called LIFE!!!

See, life is seen as a self-evident good. Therefore, in this society, the human is going to do everything to protect it. Any deviation from what we're programmed with in this society is immediately weeded out and dealt with in the harshest of ways. It's why suicidality is now high up on the human agenda.

Don't take your life. NO!!! You have to go with one of the human approved ways to die. Stray bullet? Wrong place, wrong time. Car wreck? God has a plan. Suicide? HOW DARE YOU!?

Awesomely said..You are very.connected to understanding human mindset. I also want to.add the soundbiting of people ,.eg it.will get better, pain is part of life and the popular cliche adopted by some doctors, " be positive " when patients facing a serious illness..A metaanalysis of thousands of terminal patient's found that positive or negative mindset made little difference to survival...they all.died.

 

[MeltingBrain]

I find anti-natalism a bit silly but you are right "You don't have a right to impose your views on other people" is not an argument .

 

[Arihman]

That's like saying you have no right to impose on a rapist who is imposing sex on a victim for his gratification, as if the two actions are equivalent.

The two impositions are very different: one is meant to stop parents from exposing someone else to harm (whether intended or not is irrelevant, the result is what matters), the other one is about imposing harms and risks that also open the door to further imposition of harm and risks for future generations far onto the future. To quote a site on AN I follow, the imposition of stopping procreation is for a (part of a) generation only, the imposition of life can last until the sun burns out. And, eventually, the number of miserable people WILL exceeed the number of people who are happy to be alive today if procreation continues, even if we concede that these people are and will always be a relatively small minority (let's say 1 out of 10 individuals just for the sake of the argument).

Secondly, one imposition is just about NOT doing ONE thing, the other is about imposing serious risks, as well as a significant amount of addictions that might go unmet (and that can apply even to happy people, who despite being happy are unlikely to have all their wants satisfied), on top of creating torture victims who will hate their life for a variety of reasons in order to create the satisfied people who don't need to exist and who wouldn't have been deprived of anything if they didn't get created. So parents are ultimately throwing a significant number of people under the bus for the sake of creating satisfied addictions.

Therefore, the pro-lifers' comparison is a flawed one.

 

[Orbitc]

Well, for starters, debating a human is futile in and of itself. Humans are emotional, even when trying to be logical. They're not welcoming nor accepting of nearly ANY point of view that is different from theirs. This society has attached a negative connotation to death. Therefore, life becomes an inalienable truth and self-evident entity rather than what it actually is... an experience. So, life is good no matter what. Crippled? Be happy, it's life. Experiencing racism? Hey, it's life. Suck it up!!! Slavery? At least you're alive!!! Cancer? Hey, it's all part of "god's plan". Just leave it in his hands. IT'S LIFE!!! Abused? WE ALL experience bad things every once in a while. It's called LIFE!!!

See, life is seen as a self-evident good. Therefore, in this society, the human is going to do everything to protect it. Any deviation from what we're programmed with in this society is immediately weeded out and dealt with in the harshest of ways. It's why suicidality is now high up on the human agenda.

Don't take your life. NO!!! You have to go with one of the human approved ways to die. Stray bullet? Wrong place, wrong time. Car wreck? God has a plan. Suicide? HOW DARE YOU?!

Sometimes I try unsuccessfully to pull myself out of the darkness of despair by trying to use some of the arguments of such fans of life, but unfortunately I'm too smart and weak for it to work)) But I wildly like characters like Ivar Lodbrok who was disabled, but fought on equal terms with warriors and was a good strategist. This dude had big iron balls. All these thoughts hurt me even more because I start to think that I am too weak in spirit, not the world is so shitty and evil, but I am too weak(((

That's like saying you have no right to impose on a rapist who is imposing sex on a victim for his gratification, as if the two actions are equivalent.

Brilliant comparison

 

[Daxter_87]

Sometimes I try unsuccessfully to pull myself out of the darkness of despair by trying to use some of the arguments of such fans of life, but unfortunately I'm too smart and weak for it to work)) But I wildly like characters like Ivar Lodbrok who was disabled, but fought on equal terms with warriors and was a good strategist. This dude had big iron balls. All these thoughts hurt me even more because I start to think that I am too weak in spirit, not the world is so shitty and evil, but I am too weak(((

I don't think you are "weak" at all; I don't believe in the validity of such a term to begin with. It's just that you are more sensitive than the average person – the so-called "strong" people – and, therefore, your tolerance for suffering is lower. That's a good thing though, as sensitive individuals are usually way more compassionate and reasonable than the "strong", "resilient" and "stoic" ones.

 

[Orbitc]

I don't think you are "weak" at all; I don't believe in the validity of such a term to begin with. It's just that you are more sensitive than the average person – the so-called "strong" people – and, therefore, your tolerance for suffering is lower. That's a good thing though, as sensitive individuals are usually way more compassionate and reasonable than the "strong", "resilient" and "stoic" ones.

Yes, it is possible that tolerance for psychological pain varies greatly and levels vary greatly between individuals - some are almost indifferent to the death or suffering of their child, while others weep for weeks at the death of a cat. Having a low tolerance for pain doesn't make me more compassionate - I'm a psychopath and can understand other people's pain only logically. But considering this, I am often be shocked by how indifferent people are to someone - I have seen more than once how people use their sick children to beg and then buy drugs or alcohol with this money. Such things shock even autistic psychopaths like me.

 

[Daxter_87]

Yes, it is possible that tolerance for psychological pain varies greatly and levels vary greatly between individuals - some are almost indifferent to the death or suffering of their child, while others weep for weeks at the death of a cat. Having a low tolerance for pain doesn't make me more compassionate - I'm a psychopath and can understand other people's pain only logically. But considering this, I am often be shocked by how indifferent people are to someone - I have seen more than once how people use their sick children to beg and then buy drugs or alcohol with this money. Such things shock even autistic psychopaths like me.

Yeah, my family and I think I have autism as well, but doctors have never given me an official diagnosis. I also relate to that psychopathic-like indifference you mention; indeed, I'm not very attached to anyone either, since I'm as devoid of emotions as I can be – save for anger and sadness.

However, I don't think that, in our cases, such emptiness stems from a psychopathic mind, but from an exhausted one. For instance, I barely have any energy left to take care of myself, let alone other people. But I can acknowledge the importance of others' suffering thanks to honest observation and reasoning, as you point out. Besides, I don't think we should aspire to be saints – as it's impossible to begin with –, just cause as least suffering as possible.

Also, I don't think many humans care either emotionally or intellectually, yet everyone deems them as being good people. And, regardless of that, there's no such thing as a 100% altruistic individual anyway, because we are all selfish to some degree – some people more than others though.

 

[Orbitc]

Yeah, my family and I think I have autism as well, but doctors have never given me an official diagnosis. I also relate to that psychopathic-like indifference you mention; indeed, I'm not very attached to anyone either, since I'm as devoid of emotions as I can be – save for anger and sadness.

However, I don't think that, in our cases, such emptiness stems from a psychopathic mind, but from an exhausted one. For instance, I barely have any energy left to take care of myself, let alone other people. But I can acknowledge the importance of others' suffering thanks to honest observation and reasoning, as you point out. Besides, I don't think we should aspire to be saints – as it's impossible to begin with –, just cause as least suffering as possible.

Also, I don't think many humans care either emotionally or intellectually, yet everyone deems them as being good people. And, regardless of that, there's no such thing as a 100% altruistic individual anyway, because we are all selfish to some degree – some people more than others though.

Yes, i'm an open psychopath, but many people loved me at my last job, although I have a bad character - but you can be an honest and open person with those who treat you well and logically understand that someone is suffering and help him even if you are emotionally almost dead. I behaved well and honestly towards someone who treated me well, but turned off all the rules when it came to a bad person who caused me some kind of harm in order to expel him from that place of work))