Discussion A Working Theory of Survival Instinct - What's Your Take On It?

[GoodPersonEffed]

I came to some realizations about survival instinct.

I discovered there is a message for me in SI: "I just can't."

It happened when I first tried partial a couple years ago, pre-SS, and was going to bind my wrists behind me with zip ties so that I would be forced to commit. I had everything set up, including a bag over my head and the ligature around my neck and anchored. When it came time to pull tight the zip ties and commit, it was, "I just can't," and I aborted the attempt.

When I connected a hose to the propane in the oven, attached it to a garbage bag, and put the bag over my head, I was ready for a peaceful death and to be done. The CO buildup happened so fast, and it was so hot in the bag, I started hyperventilating, and thought "I just can't." I pulled it off of my head.

But here's the thing I realized.

I am terrified of heights because I do not have stereovision, so I don't see in 3-D or have decent depth perception. Jumping is not the method for me. However, if I were standing near a cliff and a band of terrorists was running toward me and I knew they would torture me, suddenly the survival instinct would be such that "I can't" would be in response to the greater threat, and I would jump. But if I had been in the World Trade Center, I think I would have been more likely to face the fire than to jump. At that extreme height, I might not even jump to escape imminent torture by a band of terrorists. For my body, that kind of height is an incomprehensible terror, and it just says, "No."

I have two peaceful methods lined up. If they fail, I will have to resort to SN. SN is a sure thing as far as I'm concerned, and I have a total aversion to dealing with doctors and being under their control, so calling emergency services is not an option. But I've already done tons of research and prep, and I know that there are certain symptoms I personally can't at this moment tolerate. I just can't. Somehow, I have to shift my mindset as if there is an immediate and far greater danger to avoid so that I can, something that will minimize my reaction to the symptoms, which I already am 100% certain I will experience from my testing the method (I have asthma, a tiny amount of SN got in my system because of a thoughtless move during blood testing, and the breathing issues kicked in). I go into a panic response when I feel suffocated. I have the same issue, but with a milder response, when wearing protective face masks. It's like the bag over my head: I just can't. With the masks, I can, but it's really fucking hard, and I have to work to not go into panic mode and rip it off. SN will take even more work, and with the additional symptoms, and knowing I'm going to die, for now, it's too much.

___________________________

I'm interested to hear responses to my working theory, which is:

Survival instinct is a message: "I just can't." Because of this message, one aborts an attempt, or never attempts certain methods at all.

The message may or may not be related to the method. If it is related to the method, one can conceivably suicide by a different method that is personally agreeable/non-fear inducing to them to attempt, and to experience without aborting, due to rapid loss of consciousness. If the message is motivated by pure survival instinct, it will arise in relation to any method, regardless of peacefulness, and one will be either prohibited from attempting or will abort any attempt.

An imminent threat that is worse than any fear of the method or its outcome will override the survival instinct, and change the message from "I just can't" to "I can." The threat must be perceived as worse than fear of the method and/or death, thus turnining suicide into an act of self-preservation and therefore survival.


Maybe there are already resources somewhere out there about this. I doubt it's an original idea. I wonder if there is any training that could relate to help make the kind of cognitive switch I'm suggesting, from can't to can, such as US Navy SEALs training.

 

[Living sucks]

Have you ever read the article deadly perfection on survival instinct and how to overcome it?
If you have already, sorry for redundancy.

Practice makes deadly perfection, FSU suicide researcher says

 

[Pryras]

That's a clearer way to put it. It's as if your mind is justifying your response to a situation and weighing your options. There are some methods that I know my survival instinct will prevent me from ever pursuing and that would be drowning/or/jumping.

My last attempt happened very fast. It was impulsive, but I was fearless. Flipping my car over a ledge near the mountains didn't induce any fear at all. I wanted to ESCAPE the panic which was enough of a threat to me to destroy my vehicle and hopefully myself in the process. Would I be able to do it now? Absolutely not. Reliability aside, I don't carry the same feelings of imminent danger and while I'm still hurting, there's nothing to run from anymore.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Have you ever read the article on survival instinct and how to overcome it?

I want to say I feel like I did and didn't retain any of it because it didn't resonate for me. But maybe not. Do you have a link?

 

[Living sucks]

I want to say I feel like I did and didn't retain any of it because it didn't resonate for me. But maybe not. Do you have a link?

Edited my previous post. I didn't think you would get to it so quickly.

 

[Iwantoutrightnow]

The message may or may not be related to the method. If it is related to the method, one can conceivably suicide by a different method that is personally agreeable/non-fear inducing to them to attempt, and to experience without aborting,

I think the method has an impact on SI. When I od'd (before I found ss), I was convinced that it would kill me, that I would drift off peacefully into everlasting sleep. I had a moment's hesitation but once I started popping the pills there was no hesitation and just relief - SI was not a problem.

With my current method hanging, SI is a big issue for me.I know it won't be as peaceful as I want it to be so I hesitate and ultimately decide 'I just can't'

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Edited my previous post. I didn't think you would get to it so quickly.

Thanks for sharing the link. Yes, I've read it several times. My criticism of that article is that it is limiting. The researcher was inspired by his father's situation, in which he felt a burden, etc. So it's one theory for how people overcome SI and follow through, but I don't think it's universal, I think it applies only to certain situations, and that there are many other situations in which ctb becomes possible. I definitely will be able to follow through, and I don't fit those criteria. I have a sense of belonging and purpose right here on SS, and could in other forums if I sought them out. I thrive in forum environments because by nature I'm a communicative extrovert.

I personally relate more to something I recently read, about women who threw their children into a chasm and them themselves when they were about to be attacked by military forces who they knew would rape and torture them before killing them, if killing them at all. These were acts of self-preservation in the face of imminent danger.

Another perspective is the person with a progressive illness who wants the option of a peaceful exit while they still have capacity and are not yet miserable. I think it's hard to make such a step when one knows the torture of what's coming but still has some quality of life. Until the torture is happening, it's hard to let life go, but once it starts, one may regret not having acted sooner, or may no longer have the capacity to act. It's that ideal moment I'm trying to reach with this theory, to say "I can" while things are still doable and be able to leave life when it's most rational and desirable to do so. I think it's more possible with a peaceful method in which one quickly drifts off, hence N, partial hanging for the blessed few who have willing cartoids, and maybe even the ReBreather (if it works), as gold standards. Any more stress than the commitment to take a minimum of small steps for a quick and peaceful exit, even the act of setting up an exit bag and tank, may be difficult without the right mindset, and that may take preparation and training, such as the Samurai had, for example. Training that makes the person feel more powerful than the act itself. There are other ancient warrior cultures where it was honorable to fall on one's sword and such an act was admired as virtuous and courageous. And that relates to Navy SEALs -- they have to have certain mindsets to even get through the training, which the vast majority don't complete, let alone to face the challenges of the work. Hence my wondering if there is a way to trick the mind into some perception that turns the act of ctb into an "I can," or even make the process desireable, which means one won't truly experience it as the agony of suffering.

I can't do full hanging, but if the torturing terrorists were outside my door, I could do it. I could power through with the attitude of a big fuck you, I'll be the one to kill me. In fact, I just realized, I was a total wuss about having my upper lip waxed, but when I do it myself, it barely hurts, and I feel fine. It's a totally different experience. I want that for ctb, especially if I have to resort to SN.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I came to some realizations about survival instinct.

I discovered there is a message for me in SI: "I just can't."

It happened when I first tried partial a couple years ago, pre-SS, and was going to bind my wrists behind me with zip ties so that I would be forced to commit. I had everything set up, including a bag over my head and the ligature around my neck and anchored. When it came time to pull tight the zip ties and commit, it was, "I just can't," and I aborted the attempt.

When I connected a hose to the propane in the oven, attached it to a garbage bag, and put the bag over my head, I was ready for a peaceful death and to be done. The CO buildup happened so fast, and it was so hot in the bag, I started hyperventilating, and thought "I just can't." I pulled it off of my head.

But here's the thing I realized.

I am terrified of heights because I do not have stereovision, so I don't see in 3-D or have decent depth perception. Jumping is not the method for me. However, if I were standing near a cliff and a band of terrorists was running toward me and I knew they would torture me, suddenly the survival instinct would be such that "I can't" would be in response to the greater threat, and I would jump. But if I had been in the World Trade Center, I think I would have been more likely to face the fire than to jump. At that extreme height, I might not even jump to escape imminent torture by a band of terrorists. For my body, that kind of height is an incomprehensible terror, and it just says, "No."

I have two peaceful methods lined up. If they fail, I will have to resort to SN. SN is a sure thing as far as I'm concerned, and I have a total aversion to dealing with doctors and being under their control, so calling emergency services is not an option. But I've already done tons of research and prep, and I know that there are certain symptoms I personally can't at this moment tolerate. I just can't. Somehow, I have to shift my mindset as if there is an immediate and far greater danger to avoid so that I can, something that will minimize my reaction to the symptoms, which I already am 100% certain I will experience from my testing the method (I have asthma, a tiny amount of SN got in my system because of a thoughtless move during blood testing, and the breathing issues kicked in). I go into a panic response when I feel suffocated. I have the same issue, but with a milder response, when wearing protective face masks. It's like the bag over my head: I just can't. With the masks, I can, but it's really fucking hard, and I have to work to not go into panic mode and rip it off. SN will take even more work, and with the additional symptoms, and knowing I'm going to die, for now, it's too much.

___________________________

I'm interested to hear responses to my working theory, which is:

Survival instinct is a message: "I just can't." Because of this message, one aborts an attempt, or never attempts certain methods at all.

The message may or may not be related to the method. If it is related to the method, one can conceivably suicide by a different method that is personally agreeable/non-fear inducing to them to attempt, and to experience without aborting, due to rapid loss of consciousness. If the message is motivated by pure survival instinct, it will arise in relation to any method, regardless of peacefulness, and one will be either prohibited from attempting or will abort any attempt.

An imminent threat that is worse than any fear of the method or its outcome will override the survival instinct, and change the message from "I just can't" to "I can." The threat must be perceived as worse than fear of the method and/or death, thus turnining suicide into an act of self-preservation and therefore survival.


Maybe there are already resources somewhere out there about this. I doubt it's an original idea. I wonder if there is any training that could relate to help make the kind of cognitive switch I'm suggesting, from can't to can, such as US Navy SEALs training.

It's just a personal belief of mine that you can achieve any ONE goal be it ctb , ctb with a particular method or a new career through daily repeated visualizations of that goal. But as in any difficult goal hard work, time, patience, persistence, repetition repetition etc. is required. You can't just repeat it once a day but several times per day is necessary imo. Of course also the goal has to be realistic in that many others have achieved it : and in ctb that is the case. Also space is limited here so i can't post the entirety of this technique as that would require a book but these are just some things off the top of my head.


"the human brain does not know the difference between reality and fiction. It doesn't know whether or not something is actually real. In other words, it can't tell the difference between something you're thinking about and something that's actually happening. "

The Human Brain Flaw that We All Can Take Advantage Of to Improve Life

The human brain is a powerful thing, but has one fundamental flaw that we can take advantage of to make vast improvements to just any area of our lives.

www.selfhelpgems.com

How Imagery and Visualization Can Improve Athletic Performance

Many elite athletes routinely use imagery, a visualization technique, as part of their training and competition. Learn how to use it for better sports performance.

www.verywellfit.com

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It's just a personal belief of mine that you can achieve any ONE goal be it ctb , ctb with a particular method or a new career through daily repeated visualizations of that goal. But as in any difficult goal hard work, time, patience, persistence, repetition repetition etc. is required. You can't just repeat it once a day but several times per day is necessary imo. Of course also the goal has to be realistic in that many others have achieved it : and in ctb that is the case. Also space is limited here so i can't post the entirety of this technique as that would require a book but these are just some things off the top of my head.


"the human brain does not know the difference between reality and fiction. It doesn't know whether or not something is actually real. In other words, it can't tell the difference between something you're thinking about and something that's actually happening. "

The Human Brain Flaw that We All Can Take Advantage Of to Improve Life

The human brain is a powerful thing, but has one fundamental flaw that we can take advantage of to make vast improvements to just any area of our lives.

www.selfhelpgems.com

How Imagery and Visualization Can Improve Athletic Performance

Many elite athletes routinely use imagery, a visualization technique, as part of their training and competition. Learn how to use it for better sports performance.

www.verywellfit.com

Thanks for sharing! I very much agree with this. This came up on the forum months ago, another member and I started talking about athlete preparation techniques like visualization at the same time (and clearly we weren't the first!). I've used it a lot and have made significant progress, but not daily as you recommend, and I think that's made a difference in me not being as ready as I'd like. And I've used for healing past traumas techniques that tell the brain a different story because it doesn't know the difference between fact and fiction, and I have been telling myself a different story about my ctb, I didn't put it together I've been using the same technique, I can more narrowly focus that now for effectiveness. I'll be sure to read that first link, I'm sure it's helpful stuff.

I think the method has an impact on SI. When I od'd (before I found ss), I was convinced that it would kill me, that I would drift off peacefully into everlasting sleep. I had a moment's hesitation but once I started popping the pills there was no hesitation and just relief - SI was not a problem.

With my current method hanging, SI is a big issue for me.I know it won't be as peaceful as I want it to be so I hesitate and ultimately decide 'I just can't'

I totally get this!!! Thanks for sharing! It was definitely easy for me to attempt when I thought it was peaceful, I only aborted when it turned out to not be so. If only ODs were effective, they are so much easier to approach. Much easier to approach going to sleep, which we already do all the time, than approach something that one perceives as an assault. I want to change that perception.

 

[suffering]

I have also faced the 'I just can't'. However, for me it was so strong that it made me believe I will never be able to do it. The failure to overcome my SI took such a psychological toll on me that it took me around 1 year to recover, although I'm not sure 'recovery' is the right word. I was barely able to get out of bed, I isolated myself etc.. I felt like a prisoner. If I try again and fail, I will be throwing away the mildly comfortable life I have managed to recreate (I now have a job again, etc). To live is hard and at sometimes even unbearable, but to go meet my SI again feels even harder. So I'm choosing a life a quiet misery, mediocrity, boredom, aging, whatever comes next. I just hope I can keep a sense of humor and maybe find some nice friends along the way.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I have also faced the 'I just can't'. However, for me it was so strong that it made me believe I will never be able to do it. The failure to overcome my SI took such a psychological toll on me that it took me around 1 year to recover, although I'm not sure 'recovery' is the right word. I was barely able to get out of bed, I isolated myself etc.. I felt like a prisoner. If I try again and fail, I will be throwing away the mildly comfortable life I have managed to recreate (I now have a job again, etc). To live is hard and at sometimes even unbearable, but to go meet my SI again feels even harder. So I'm choosing a life a quiet misery, mediocrity, boredom, aging, whatever comes next. I just hope I can keep a sense of humor and maybe find some nice friends along the way.

Thank you for sharing. I appreciate the validation that I got something right with the "I just can't," and I'm sorry it's had such a huge impact on you. Sending empathy and respect.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I had the revelations of the OP, and I haven't progressed any further in what I'm trying to solve, italicized in this quote from comment 7:


Another perspective is the person with a progressive illness who wants the option of a peaceful exit while they still have capacity and are not yet miserable. I think it's hard to make such a step when one knows the torture of what's coming but still has some quality of life. Until the torture is happening, it's hard to let life go, but once it starts, one may regret not having acted sooner, or may no longer have the capacity to act. It's that ideal moment I'm trying to reach with this theory, to say "I can" while things are still doable and be able to leave life when it's most rational and desirable to do so.

 

[Valsalva]

Very good post. Totally agree. Choose the right time!

 

[Soul]

I've had that "I just can't" in relation to episodes of acute respiratory distress from my illness - acute as in putting me in the hospital on a ventilator. I've never associated that with SI - just with the physical discomfort that makes me tell someone to call an ambulance. But now I'll be pondering how I could practice being able to continue despite the discomfort. All I have to do is lie there not puking, after all. It should be doable.

But isn't the real trouble my body's SI, which seems to operate on different tracks than my mind's SI? Bodies just plain want to live. They've got prehistoric orders to stay alive, vomit, tear masks off, open windows whether I'm conscious or not. Bodies can be very stubborn.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I've had that "I just can't" in relation to episodes of acute respiratory distress from my illness - acute as in putting me in the hospital on a ventilator. I've never associated that with SI - just with the physical discomfort that makes me tell someone to call an ambulance. But now I'll be pondering how I could practice being able to continue despite the discomfort. All I have to do is lie there not puking, after all. It should be doable.

But isn't the real trouble my body's SI, which seems to operate on different tracks than my mind's SI? Bodies just plain want to live. They've got prehistoric orders to stay alive, vomit, tear masks off, open windows whether I'm conscious or not. Bodies can be very stubborn.

Good post.

With regard to the second paragraph, I addressed the SI and what the body wants in comment 7 -- it depends on what the body is wanting to survive, and what it considers survival, especially if there are two forces that both lead to non-survival. There is an instinct that says jump when the fire is imminent, even if jumping would in all other scenarios be a full-on "I just can't." Yet instincts aren't totally in control, they can be reframed and overridden, whether by force or by will. Force acts more quickly.

Your first paragraph addressed a crucial point for me. The breathing issues, and how to ride them out. Personally, I can handle vomiting, it is familiar enough that it doesn't send me into panic, nor will the other symptoms. Breathing issues do send me into panic, and I know for a fact I will have respiratory distress with SN, otherwise I would do it now as it is guaranteed to cause death if done right and there's no outside interference, both of which I have covered. But if I can't handle respiratory distress, I'm concerned I'll reach out for help, no matter how committed I am to my goal and how much I want it; I may want the relief more because I will experience the distress so intensely. So if you can figure out how to override the message of the physical discomfort that tells you to call for help, I'd be very interested to know!

 

[Soul]

Do the breathing issues send us into panic or is it more at they feel like the physical element of panic? Can we learn to remind ourselves that this isn't panic, it's just a physical response and all I need to do is sit down, breathe as well as I can and it will pass?

Thanks for that "good post" - it helps. 8]

 

[rhiino]

Very interesting thread. I also experienced the "I can't". I tried to jump to death and although I played the moment dozens of times in my mind and really wanted to die, it suddenly was just there, the "I just can't".

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

In case anyone is still interested in this thread, I'm quoting an OP on another thread by @WillOxyWork as I think it's relevant to my theory.

When I posted my OP, I was thinking about the issue of survival instinct and "I just can't" in relation to methods. @WillOxyWork is struggling not with the method, but with fears about what comes after death by suicide.

Thank you, @WillOxyWork for permission to link. I wish you the best.

None of us can say with 100% certainty what happens when we die. Lately, I have been reading about near death experiences, especially of those from attempted suicides. I want to say that there is probably nothing waiting for us after death, but the thought that I may face consequences after my death for ending my own life scares me.

At the same time, I don't think I have the strength to endure my suffering any longer. I have struggled my whole life with depression, and now I have tinnitus and vision issues that have effectively ruined all of my hobbies and sources of enjoyment. I constantly yearn for peace from this agony. I'm just so scared more agony will await me after dying.

 

[StateOfMind]

Great thread!

You don't need to be a navy seal.

From my experience - and its easier said than done (but very doable) - is to compound and compress all of those thoughts and emotions that lead up to your CTB plans in the first place (at the imminent point of CTB), into a relatively short space of time. Picture yourself as a super hero or an athlete runner seeing himself in front (the finish line) like a shadow or ghost before hand and then... boom.

1. Shadow and ghost (imagine / see and know your self succeeding)
2. Compress and compound (the reasons you wan to die)

It feels like - psychologically - that would be the most effective.

I used to be a high-performance athlete in extreme sports and spent most of time thinking and practicing how to overcome obstacles and fears. Unfortunately I began studies at an institution that caused me to soften up physically and mentally.

As you might be able to infer I'm still working on points 1 and 2. But I feel like I'm very close.