A fresh take on Shawn Shatto - no arguing please

[Ruffian]

I know a lot of people are chagrined by the Bieber's crusade against us, and unfortunately nothing gets votes like a grieving mother pointing a finger at what they believe is a death cult. Can we leave the debate at the door please?

1. Suicide is at heart, a severe mental health issue. I still 100% believe in the principle of self-determination. For fucks sake, I'm a writer - I have plenty of excellent role models.

2. My whole ideology is that mental health services need to start early, and people with a lot of mental health issues usually also come from families steeped in denial, and the Bieber's are almost writing their own case study, albeit unknowlingly.

3. What mental health services was Ms. Shatto receiving prior to her suicide? Why was she still living at home at 25? Was she bright? If she was bright the prospect of living at home and working at an Amazon warehouse had to be challenging, but this is pure speculation on my part. I just know from talking to people in her age group lack of opportunity is a huge issue for young people. Not just on this site, I'm talking people raised with every possible advantage, including a loving, supportive family.

4. I know a lot of you aren't worried about the site being shut down, it's only in Pennsylvania, yadda yadda yadda. Because Tor and VPN, right? Yawn to you millennials. Tor is crawling with law enforcement, and if you're in the states, it's especially dangerous. What if a serious crime occurs a block away and you're the only one using Tor in the vicinity? I know, I know, I'm just a crazy old person, it will never happen to you, etc. Just using Tor is grounds for police to obtain a physical search warrant, ok? I have had a lot of run ins with police, and like everyone else, they like to chit chat and answer sincere questions. Since I never used Tor for anything illegal, I really needed to know. I would also suggest stop researching how you're going to kill yourself and check out Eric Snowden on YouTube for 10 minutes.

5. Let's leave the Bieber's actions against us as right or wrong out of replies here, because it's well established if it were any other issue we could say they're being jackasses to us. But they lost their daughter, so we need to fundamentally be compassionate, no matter how difficult. Plus I have been a complete jackass in a lot of my posts. And realize denial is their only coping mechanism because they themselves probably aren't getting the mental health treatment THEY need. So let's lay down our arms and really focus on how we, as a community, can bring awareness to the issue of mental health!

6. Moderators, I would like to do everything in my power to fight the good fight at a grassroots level. Please review that term if you don't know what I'm talking about. I'm fortunate enough to live in Pennsylvania, so I will make every attempt to fight the good fight for us. Without even being a jerk, I promise. I just know how politics work, and I will do it under cover. Everyone thinks I'm crazy, but I'm no David Koresh. NO ONE ever pays attention to me IRL because I'm female. And I hate guns and wouldn't own one even if I could. Cops come quick everywhere I've ever lived. And this isn't a #metoo thing. Because I will take shit over at the right time, without even being verbally aggressive. Because I know how to get the right people when I need to, so I guess in that sense I am a lot like Koresh. Who also had bipolar, BPD, and PTSD, I'm 100% sure, coincidentally.

7. I know we live by the code, "Trust no one," here, so feel free to not trust me. If you've read any of my posts you know in an hour I could say I'm done, I'm out, etc. That's just bipolar with a dash of BPD usually, and I am just getting clean from a drug spree. Not myself and certainly not living my best life. I'm leading my only life I can handle at a severe crossroads. And I still love every single person on this site. Which is why I will do this alone if if I have to. I get it if you think it's impossible. Tomorrow I might as well.

 

[Shamana]

On regards to 3.

I don't really think it's any of our business why Shawn was living at home at 25 neither how perfect or imperfect her family is. No parents are going to be symphathetic to websites that provides the best methods for suicide and support for their mentally ill children

It's a very grey grey subject where it's really difficult to say for sure what is right and what is wrong, but I definitely understand that shawn's mother is painting extremes when she is refering to everyone in here as being predators who want to see people dead.

 

[Wayfaerer]

Mental health service is a significant portion of why I'm even here.

 

[Stan]

Certainly not going to argue, but if I was looking at this discussion from the outside world rather than internal to SS, could it be viewed as 'poking the bear'? This site maybe regularly viewed by people who are supporting that bill and could potentially see it as inflammatory and use it as a 'call to arms' justifying their aims. Would be better to use the bill itself as the talking point rather than an individual who has no right of reply and speculation is a dangerous thing.

 

[Powderedmonster]

On regards to 3.

I don't really think it's any of our business why Shawn was living at home at 25 neither how perfect or imperfect her family is. No parents are going to be symphathetic to websites that provides the best methods for suicide and support for their mentally ill children

It's a very grey grey subject where it's really difficult to say for sure what is right and what is wrong, but I definitely understand that shawn's mother is painting extremes when she is refering to everyone in here as being predators who want to see people dead.

I find it ridiculous because Shawn was also a member of this site..so technically she was also a predator who wanted to see people dead according to her mother? Smh the only member of this site responsible for her daughter's suicide is her daughter

 

[Lethe]

I don't see what her living at home at 25 has to do with anything. You seem to imply there's something intrinsically wrong with that.

Also I'll venture to say that your writing style makes you come across as a complete loon.

 

[TowerUpright]

Just using TOR is grounds for a search warrant??! I'd like to see that documented, please.. TOR, in of itself, is not illegal in the US. And, what you say does not stand up to legal scrutiny.

Edit: it might be considered if there are other reasons to have a search. More fuel to the fire. But, in of itself, is not a thing.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

I think grief can paint a very one-dimensional picture for the person experiencing it, but ultimately free will has to be respected. It's the very cornerstone of the human experience, and a basic right we all have and must cherish.

I imagine it's also probably quite easy to overlook the immense collective suffering of the userbase and view it as sick and voyeuristic. After all, Shawn is no longer with us, and we are all still around. In that sense, I have no doubt her family feels robbed. When that kind of emotion is invoked, all you want is some semblance of justice/retribution, even if it's a little misguided.

Anyhow, I'm not sure why this topic keeps coming up. It's a sad one and probably best left alone.

 

[Ruffian]

On regards to 3.

I don't really think it's any of our business why Shawn was living at home at 25 neither how perfect or imperfect her family is. No parents are going to be symphathetic to websites that provides the best methods for suicide and support for their mentally ill children

It's a very grey grey subject where it's really difficult to say for sure what is right and what is wrong, but I definitely understand that shawn's mother is painting extremes when she is refering to everyone in here as being predators who want to see people dead.

Thank you for replying. I'm going to be able to do this anyway, even if it's by myself. I have no problem with a young person being at home, but I know it's a cause for depression and hopelessness among a lot of young people.

Mental health service is a significant portion of why I'm even here.

Thank you, this is the point I'm trying to make, and moving forward I'm not mentioning any more names. All I'm trying to do essentially is make this a mental health awareness opportunity. Treatment failures are a very important part of the discussion. We're a part of the mental health debate that no one cares about. I'm just going to use this "opportunity" to maybe even reach 1 or 2 people Outside of our community.

Certainly not going to argue, but if I was looking at this discussion from the outside world rather than internal to SS, could it be viewed as 'poking the bear'? This site maybe regularly viewed by people who are supporting that bill and could potentially see it as inflammatory and use it as a 'call to arms' justifying their aims. Would be better to use the bill itself as the talking point rather than an individual who has no right of reply and speculation is a dangerous thing.

Point taken, but aren't they skinning the bear alive? Moving forward this issue is strictly mental health, no more names.

I don't see what her living at home at 25 has to do with anything. You seem to imply there's something intrinsically wrong with that.

Also I'll venture to say that your writing style makes you come across as a complete loon.

"To be great is to be misunderstood." Ralph Waldo Emerson. See above about living at home at 25. Nothing intrinsically wrong at all, especially if you're ok with it, and you're family isn't cause for any more problems. Of course I come across as a complete loon, as opposed to what? The other people walking around with Bipolar 1, BPD, and PTSD? Plus I have absolutely nothing to lose at this point in life - it tends to destabilize people.

Just using TOR is grounds for a search warrant??! I'd like to see that documented, please.. TOR, in of itself, is not illegal in the US. And, what you say does not stand up to legal scrutiny.

Edit: it might be considered if there are other reasons to have a search. More fuel to the fire. But, in of itself, is not a thing.

Why don't you find the document and prove me wrong. I'm petty AF when I want to be, but I don't have time for it here. It won't be the first time someone on SS proved me wrong or the first time I apologized to people here.

I think grief can paint a very one-dimensional picture for the person experiencing it, but ultimately free will has to be respected. It's the very cornerstone of the human experience, and a basic right we all have and must cherish.

I imagine it's also probably quite easy to overlook the immense collective suffering of the userbase and view it as sick and voyeuristic. After all, Shawn is no longer with us, and we are all still around. In that sense, I have no doubt her family feels robbed. When that kind of emotion is invoked, all you want is some semblance of justice/retribution, even if it's a little misguided.

Anyhow, I'm not sure why this topic keeps coming up. It's a sad one and probably best left alone.

I agree. I'm not using any more of their names on the site, because They've already put enough of my posts on their Facebook pages. And I said it earlier, I'm not checking their pages anymore. It's just as voyeuristic. But I like your wording, "immense collective suffering," a lot. Very well said.
I appreciate everyone's input here, and even when I'm not trying to be inflammatory I can come off as such. It's been the case ever since digital communication where no one knows the real me, where I'm from, my life story, my sense of humor, etc. But no one really values human interaction any more, which I think sucks, for lack of a better term. And I'm comfortable being alone, and I only have 2 really close friends, but none of us are on our phones at all when we hang out.

 

[TowerUpright]

TOR came out of US Naval Research and now lives on the Tor Project repository, free to all. It was not classified, rather, encouraged for frequent use, since the more people that use it, the more intelligence agents can remain anonymous. I'm referring to both the Wikipedia article and torproject.org. You may refer to them, if you're questioning my veracity.

Regarding a document you want. I recall you writing that law enforcement can obtain a search warrant purely based out of TOR usage. I am simply calling bullshit. Either by you or your law enforcement friends.

The legal requirements can be found here or the 4th Amendment.

The Search Warrant Requirement in Criminal Investigations & Legal Exceptions

What types of searches and seizures are prohibited under the Fourth Amendment, and when may exceptions to the warrant requirement apply?

www.justia.com

I highlight the area of requirements. It clearly states a warrant requires, among other things, a SPECIFIC list of objects to obtain and SPECIFIC people. That is not something that the police can simply obtain: an IP address maps to a router. That router can have wifi enabled for everyone. In other words, there is no guarantee that whoever pays the cable bill is using Tor. Besides, it'd take weeks or months for an ISP to get specific info to the police. I point out a depressing series of articles in this weekend's NYT that profiled paedophiles. If the police and federal agents take weeks for network information on those bastards, how likely is it that they'd get a warrant for a depressed person??

 

[JimFord99]

Just using TOR is grounds for a search warrant??! I'd like to see that documented, please.. TOR, in of itself, is not illegal in the US. And, what you say does not stand up to legal scrutiny.

Edit: it might be considered if there are other reasons to have a search. More fuel to the fire. But, in of itself, is not a thing.

You are right it is not illegal to use TOR, but it is considered to be suspicious. It makes me wonder how private it actually is to use? Is the dark web being monitored? Or am I just paranoid? I always have some suspicions about the net.

 

[Bathsheba]

I find it ridiculous because Shawn was also a member of this site..so technically she was also a predator who wanted to see people dead according to her mother? Smh the only member of this site responsible for her daughter's suicide is her daughter

Absolutely. This is the bit I don't get. Shawn embraced the site fully and probably saw people writing of their plans to ctb so in her mother's view was she partially responsible for their deaths?
In regard to point 5 of course we should be compassionate to anyone losing a child.. absolutely horrific, but I don't feel a lot of compassion from the biebers for the members of the ss community.. I see them being referred to as 'ghoulish', surely not the most sensitive description for suicidal people?

 

[TowerUpright]

You are right it is not illegal to use TOR, but it is considered to be suspicious. It makes me wonder how private it actually is to use? Is the dark web being monitored? Or am I just paranoid? I always have some suspicions about the net.

Let's assume the Dark Web is being monitored. Which, to a certain extent, it is. How much is uncertain and, technically, it's very difficult and sporadic.

Let's also assume that the authorities can magically pull names and addresses from servers across the world.

If it's publically known with certainty that this happens, all the terrorists, paedophiles, other criminals would either cease using it and/or step of their technology. Such disclosure would need to be released in court proceedings for evidence, if you want a conviction (see fruit from poisoned tree).

Would the governments alert all the bad guys of the world simply because of a pro-suicide forum?? I don't think so. Stopping a terrorist with a nuclear bomb, maybe. But not because of a site like this..

Or do you see it differently?

 

[JimFord99]

You might be right with this ...

 

[omoidarui]

im still mad they havent screenshot any of my posts for their dumb page

maybe its because they cant find anything to criticise about them becuz they're so good *z-snap

 

[Stan]

Let's assume the Dark Web is being monitored. Which, to a certain extent, it is. How much is uncertain and, technically, it's very difficult and sporadic.

Let's also assume that the authorities can magically pull names and addresses from servers across the world.

If it's publically known with certainty that this happens, all the terrorists, paedophiles, other criminals would either cease using it and/or step of their technology. Such disclosure would need to be released in court proceedings for evidence, if you want a conviction (see fruit from poisoned tree).

Would the governments alert all the bad guys of the world simply because of a pro-suicide forum?? I don't think so. Stopping a terrorist with a nuclear bomb, maybe. But not because of a site like this..

Or do you see it differently?

technically there are ways of monitoring the Dark Web. There are some things that can be done but the authorities are keeping it a closely guarded secret so people don't close down those technical loopholes. But they are directing their attention more to the distributors and suppliers rather than customers at the moment

 

[Onomotopoeia]

I do not think we need to have a mental health debate at all, or rather I think most people continue to talk about the wrong aspects of it.

Get therapy, get drugs, and if your suicidal get locked up.

I think therapy and/or drugs can help, some people, sometimes. Without a doubt there is a lot of room for improvement in affordability, accessibility, and even those methods. All that said there is a lot of bureaucracy that inhibits any meaningful change.

Mental health issues are not only solved with therapy and/or drugs. We need to start looking at OTHER solutions to complement traditional therapy or even in place of it.

Almost all mental illness are exacerbated by life events and reduced by feeling fulfilled, appreciated, loved, and having companionship. If we could step back from the hookup culture, the social media, and all the hate spewed on the internet and instead used the internet to truly find ways for people to connect with one another AND build meaningful friendships (relationships are messy, lets just try friends k?)

That's my take - mental health care sucks in general and it's difficult to find the right solutions sure we should work on that, but I argue that an easier and likely more effective solution is simply finding meaningful ways for people to connect.

I read an article once about a study done that would have anyone fall in love with someone else in just 10 questions. - Now i already said not relationships in this regard but it went on to talk about it was no about romantic love and more about just opening up and having meaningful conversations forming an actual connection.

There are people out there brighter than me and/or with more resources to actually give something a go but if we can just get people taking (in person) about things that matter, if we can force that initial interaction in a meaningful direction we could likely reduce some stressors thereby improving people's lives

 

[Ruffian]

You are right it is not illegal to use TOR, but it is considered to be suspicious. It makes me wonder how private it actually is to use? Is the dark web being monitored? Or am I just paranoid? I always have some suspicions about the net.

I don't trust anything developed by the government, so yeah, it's probably just paranoia.

Absolutely. This is the bit I don't get. Shawn embraced the site fully and probably saw people writing of their plans to ctb so in her mother's view was she partially responsible for their deaths?
In regard to point 5 of course we should be compassionate to anyone losing a child.. absolutely horrific, but I don't feel a lot of compassion from the biebers for the members of the ss community.. I see them being referred to as 'ghoulish', surely not the most sensitive description for suicidal people?

What??? Are you serious? They must read everything I write, because I literally said in one thread I stopped visiting their Facebook page because I felt ghoulish, and I wanted to live and let live. Ghoulish is not a common word. I guess all I mean is this needs to be about mental health and it's poor treatment outcomes. I may still be suicidal at times, but I have gotten a lot of perspective in the last 6 years. And I do have 30 years of exposure to a lot of treatment, even if was just knowledge.

I felt very inspired today, and got some resources together.

im still mad they havent screenshot any of my posts for their dumb page

maybe its because they cant find anything to criticise about them becuz they're so good *z-snap

Hahahahaha!!!

I do not think we need to have a mental health debate at all, or rather I think most people continue to talk about the wrong aspects of it.

Get therapy, get drugs, and if your suicidal get locked up.

I think therapy and/or drugs can help, some people, sometimes. Without a doubt there is a lot of room for improvement in affordability, accessibility, and even those methods. All that said there is a lot of bureaucracy that inhibits any meaningful change.

Mental health issues are not only solved with therapy and/or drugs. We need to start looking at OTHER solutions to complement traditional therapy or even in place of it.

Almost all mental illness are exacerbated by life events and reduced by feeling fulfilled, appreciated, loved, and having companionship. If we could step back from the hookup culture, the social media, and all the hate spewed on the internet and instead used the internet to truly find ways for people to connect with one another AND build meaningful friendships (relationships are messy, lets just try friends k?)

That's my take - mental health care sucks in general and it's difficult to find the right solutions sure we should work on that, but I argue that an easier and likely more effective solution is simply finding meaningful ways for people to connect.

I read an article once about a study done that would have anyone fall in love with someone else in just 10 questions. - Now i already said not relationships in this regard but it went on to talk about it was no about romantic love and more about just opening up and having meaningful conversations forming an actual connection.

There are people out there brighter than me and/or with more resources to actually give something a go but if we can just get people taking (in person) about things that matter, if we can force that initial interaction in a meaningful direction we could likely reduce some stressors thereby improving people's lives

I love this. I agree. I wish some of us could hook up IRL.