Method A few more thoughts / considerations about the Helium-Bag Method

[alane]

Hello!

I know the Helium issue has been discussed quite a few times here and in other places on the web, but there are still a few points I'd like to talk about.

First of all I want to be ready when the time comes and I'm preparing a Helium exit bag. Now at the beginning of my research it seemed that the Helium hood would be the best way to go. Then I found out about the problem of Helium being mixed up with oxygen when it comes to balloon gas. By now I've already gotten 2 Helium Tanks, but it says that it's 99.996 % pure helium. Now it would appear that, as long as I can trust that Helium's purity, nothing could go wrong when using the Helium Exit bag but I'm getting scared of this as I encounter more and more reports of Helium suicide attempts that went wrong.

Have a look at this post for e.g.:

Helium hood (Exit Bag) does not work. - the suicide project

I’ll leave all the details out….but I was extremely depressed and decided to try the helium hood method. It failed catastrophically. I am absolutely sure I did everything right too. MATERIALS I USED: – 1 60cuft cylinder containing industrial grade 99.9% pure helium. – 1 flow regulator – 6 ft 1/4...

suicideproject.org

This guy says he (or she?) really DID get pure Helium and still it failed. Also I've heard more stories like that, where people do pass out but appear to be unconscious for several hours (12+) and they wake up with the exit bag torn away and vomit next to them.

Now everybody blames polluted Helium (the Helium / air mix) but I don't believe that this is the only reason for Helium failures. Looking a bit closer at the failed attempts it would seem that there are 2 distinct "failed outcomes". Either the person does not lose consciousness at all or they lose consciousness and wake up with severe chest pain and find the bag ripped off their head and vomit next to them. While it seems plausible that the people who used the polluted gas would not notice any effect, the polluted Helium does not, in my opinion, explain why people pass out initially and then rip the bag off , etc…

So to make a long story short, I'd like your opinion on a few questions:

1. Since the Helium hood method has been found by several right to die organizations as peaceful and painless, could it be that this is only the case with elderly and weaker people?

2. A lot of forensic papers mention convulsions as a side effect and I was wondering if that could be the cause for vomiting. What would your recommendations be to counteract that effect? Ant-vomiting agents / Anticonvulsants ? Which ones ?

3. Is there a way to supplement the helium hood / intert gas method with something else such as a poison to have some kind of back-up in case it the gas method where to go wrong. (I thought about some cyanide in a capsule that would dissolve at a later time, but I don't know if that would work in a peaceful manner) some ideas?

Last but not least: If the failed Helium attemps that we're ready about every now and them are NOT due to air polluted Gas, then we might get that same problem with Nitrogen, too.

So having all that said, what are your thoughts?

Thank you for your help

 

[alane]

Let me add that I really need some help with this. I don't want the whole thing to go wrong

 

[Jumping_realms]

If everything is done up to code and policy/procedure, That sticker should have to have the exact percent of the gas that was dispensed into that tank that was provided or rented from them.

 

[alane]

Ok, but as I said, another thing I'm worried about are convulsions and / or vomiting that might occur. As far as I know those might happen in both cases (Helium and Nitrogen) and I was wondering if anybody has a suggestion as to prevent this? A drug maybe?

See my basic idea is to make the exit-bag method a little bit more fail-safe....

Would it be a good idea (for e.g.) to take a lethal poison first (maybe in a capsule to delay it's release) and then put the Helium / Nitrogen bag over your head so the poison would "do the rest" if the exit bag failed for any reason?

What do you guys think ?

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/failing-helium-method.94/

Here's another failure reported and the poster said the gas was clean (99%). Could there really be soo many manufactures that lie about their product? What goes wrong there? Do we have that same sort of failures when it comes to Nitrogen?

 

[Jumping_realms]

Some get anti-nausea medication from a doctor or order it from a vendor out of the PPeH.

I personally wouldn't involve a fail safe with poison if I could just take SN and be gone with no exit bag and tank at all. I wouldn't personally do the gas, because even if it is 99%, I'm scared I will jerk around just enough to knock a tank hose out of place or something with the bag on my head and have brain damage.

With my personal lack of desire of this method stated, when people do it right, it is nearly fool proof and can't fail easily in any way.

 

[alane]

Well SN is really hard to get by around here.... I wish there was some way to 'secure' that exit bag method. As for the vendors out of the PPeH: the author states that vendors keep shutting down/ refusing to sell the substances as soon as they list them. It is very hard to get SA / SN or similar here....

 

[Raminiki]

I've secured supplies for both helium exit bag and SN methods and intend to use them in tandem as a failsafe. I bought my 99% pure helium from the jungle site, assured by the manufacturer it's pure helium, and was provided a product data sheet.

I can't guarantee it is, or that there's enough in the 50 balloon tank to ensure my exit, hence I have the SN kit. I'm unable to get the supplies for nitrogen exit, or I would prefer that to helium.

SN kit comes with antiemetics which may help with vomit risk.

If things go ideally for me, I take the SN, apply the exit bag and knock myself out after 5 mins to limit fear/pain from ingesting the SN. If the helium isn't enough to snuff me, the SN will finish the job. It's as close to guaranteed as I think is possible.

 

[khz89]

I am not sure but in the first failed attempt you linked, it sounds like he made some mistakes. He mentioned "inserting the tube" right beforehand (not taping it?). And he mentioned closing the valve as the last step. For his third attempt he said:

I tried again a few hours later and did all the same steps except this time I used a new bag and I left the gas flowing slightly inside the bag. This time I had the same hyperventilating and chest pain then I passed out very rapidly.

So the first two times he didn't even leave the gas flowing? And the third time, just "slightly". That would explain why he would pass out and then wake up - the full bag of helium knocked him out but without enough flow, air got into the bag.

 

[alane]

I am not sure but in the first failed attempt you linked, it sounds like he made some mistakes. He mentioned "inserting the tube" right beforehand (not taping it?). And he mentioned closing the valve as the last step. For his third attempt he said:

I tried again a few hours later and did all the same steps except this time I used a new bag and I left the gas flowing slightly inside the bag. This time I had the same hyperventilating and chest pain then I passed out very rapidly.

So the first two times he didn't even leave the gas flowing? And the third time, just "slightly". That would explain why he would pass out and then wake up - the full bag of helium knocked him out but without enough flow, air got into the bag.

Could be but I don't know. Someone from that thread also said that this was the 4th time he heard of such a failure. See my worry is that the Exit-bag works fine with elderly and weaker people, but not with people at a younger age... On the other hand there are reports of younger people having committed suicide by that method
.....

I'm just confused....

 

[khz89]

I think that with such a complicated setup there are bound to be failures if you don't get everything right. As well as the issue of impure helium.

 

[ContinuousJump]

It's good that you're researching this carefully. My understanding is that inert gas is one of the most reliable methods (see the PPeH and "Five Last Acts" books for example... and, of course read the megathread completely). BUT it does require careful understanding & some skill.

One of my favorite guides to inert gas is here: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-cylinder-regulator-general-refresher-summary.30657/

 

[alane]

what, in your guys opinion, are the most common mistakes people make, except for using diluted helium ?

 

[OnlyTheWind]

With the bag being torn off, isn't that the body's unconscious response? If you restrain your hands, you should be able to mitigate that issue. AFAIK, there is also no rule that states you must use Helium. Any inert gas will do.

 

[alane]

Yes but I believe that is already beyond the point where things go wrong. If someone was to rip the bag off that would mean that they did NOT go unconscious ad dies. They passed for a sec but where alive enough ti rip it off. That's the horrible failure that needs to be avoided.

 

[OnlyTheWind]

Yes but I believe that is already beyond the point where things go wrong. If someone was to rip the bag off that would mean that they did NOT go unconscious ad dies. They passed for a sec but where alive enough ti rip it off. That's the horrible failure that needs to be avoided.

This is why I prefer the diving mask method with nitrogen. Two breaths is enough to render you unconscious, so if you are determined to die, there is not really any room for panic. I don't think it's even possible to panic with this method due to the nature of inert gas.

 

[alane]

See there:

Inert gas asphyxiation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Loss of consciousness may be accompanied by convulsions[11] and is followed by cyanosis and cardiac arrest. About 7 minutes of oxygen deprivation causes death of thebrainstem.[citation needed]

The RAF Institute of Aviation Medicine did a study[13] in which subjects were asked to hyperventilate in a nitrogen atmosphere. Among the results: "When the duration of over-ventilation with nitrogen was greater than 8–10 sec the subject reported a transient dimming of vision. In the experiments in which nitrogen breathing was carried out for 15–16 sec the subject experienced some general clouding of consciousness and impairment of vision. Vision was frequently lost in these experiments for a short period. In the few experiments in which nitrogen was breathed for 17–20 sec unconsciousness supervened and was accompanied on most occasions by a generalized convulsion. The duration of the interval between the start of over-ventilation with nitrogen and the onset of symptoms was 12–14 sec." The study did not report how much discomfort the subjects felt.

another source linked and cited in that article is here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1368754/pdf/jphysiol01210-0056.pdf

See why I'm getting confused and scary?

This is why I prefer the diving mask method with nitrogen. Two breaths is enough to render you unconscious, so if you are determined to die, there is not really any room for panic. I don't think it's even possible to panic with this method due to the nature of inert gas.

Yes but that's exact the thing: is it REALLY just the diving mask or the Nitrogen instead of the helium ? Are these REALLY the things that make it more safe ?
Just let me say, i'm sooo confused...

 

[OnlyTheWind]

Yes but that's exact the thing: is it REALLY just the diving mask or the Nitrogen instead of the helium ? Are these REALLY the things that make it more safe ?

I'm not an expert on this topic by any means, but nitrogen (from what I've read) is the gold standard in inert gas suicide. The use of a diving mask ensures that there is no way for it to come off during convulsions or SI when unconscious. It also ensures that you are breathing ONLY inert gas, while carbon dioxide is expelled, so there is no mixing going on which can affect the process. I don't believe there is any chance of survival when done with the diving mask.

 

[alane]

So that would your preferred way ?
I'm still trying to find the thing, i mean V've looked around too, but It seems these things are so hard to get by. Only the Helium is readily available.. and it even sais 99.996 % purity ... I wouldn't need a regulator for that, but then again....
Confusion, confusion...

 

[OnlyTheWind]

So that would your preferred way ?
I'm still trying to find the thing, i mean V've looked around too, but It seems these things are so hard to get by. Only the Helium is readily available.. and it even sais 99.996 % purity ... I wouldn't need a regulator for that, but then again....
Confusion, confusion...

It is the method that scares me least and if I can get it assembled, I will use it without hesitation. You should be able to find Nitrogen from welding suppliers, large hardware stores etc. It is perfectly legal to own, no questions asked.

EDIT: Attached the diving mask method guide for those interested.

 

[Originaldon]

I think you're completely over thinking and over complicating things.

the failures you have linked all have very valid reasons boiled down to user error. For example the guy who turned the gas off clearly had no understanding of the method so really anything he has said is irrelevant data.

you would rip the bag off due to CO2 build up and oxygen entering the bag. This would be down to an error in your set up. There should be no alarm or warning to your body as it does not know that you are not breathing oxygen.

From researching this method a lot recently a mask is also a bad idea unless your experienced with diving and have a lot of money for the proper set up. The main reason being when you go unconscious you have more chance of breaking the seal on your face. The general consensus on this forum is masks are inferior and have a high rate of failure.

I really would suggest people research all the resources and understand the methods before commenting misleading information . A lot of these posts include "but I read some some said this" with 0 evidence.

 

[Masonfight]

I heard that if you use a cloth bag over the plastic bag you won't be able to tear off the plastic bag therefore the gas will complete the job even if it isn't pure.

 

[alane]

I heard that if you use a cloth bag over the plastic bag you won't be able to tear off the plastic bag therefore the gas will complete the job even if it isn't pure.

?? I don't think that would make any sense. Preventing yourself from tearing the bag off would mean that you do feel the lack of oxygen and fight that. not a peaceful death.

The more I read and think about it the more scared I get....
does anybody of you guys have any personal experience with the exit-bag / mask Method? I mean like a relative, friend or sb else that you knew who successfully used this method?

 

[alane]

So what are your suggestions for a proper seating position / location ? I head lying down in bed is only good if you're propped up by enough pillows. what you you guys think of a car seat ?
ah and something else about the flow regulation. I't was always said, that when using a baloon gas tank with pure helium things should work. Now I dug out a report where the guy was using a helium balloon tank without a regulator and see what happened?

What do you think ??
So is there a regulator for these balloon gas tanks at all at could do the 15L / min ?

 

[alane]

nobody? sorry don't really mean to push

 

[Originaldon]

nobody? sorry don't really mean to push

There is no exact science on seating. You need to make sure any movement will not dislodge or damage the bag. Lieing down head on pillow would enable you to rub the bag if you moved which may dislodge it. You most likely want your head to lul forward when you go unconscious so the bag is not in contact with anything. A car seat would depend on the type of seat and headrest. It is common sense, there is no exact science.

The flow rate is actually a science but also common sense. You need the gas to flow for enough time to prevent any oxygen entering your brain for enough time to die.

As is mentioned 100's of times here, helium is not the ideal gas when Nitrogen and Argon are available and less complicated.

Rather than push people and ask repeated questions, all this information can be found on this forum.

 

[alane]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to push, but there are just soo many uncertainties as my attached pdf would show, especially about the necessity of a flow regulator on a balloon gas tank (provided the helium is pure).

 

[Originaldon]

I believe helium causes far too much worry and complication these days.

buy argon or nitrogen and it's a lot less to think about.

 

[alane]

@Originaldon

Sorry for the stupid follow up question but buy: "...You most likely want your head to lul forward..." did you mean "lean forward" as in lowwer the head forwards? Sorry I did not get that phrase.

As for everyone else:
Sorry for repeatedly asking questions that seem to have been answered before, but I read a lot of the wiki's and including PPeH but there are just soo many things that I feel unsure about.

Sorry for all my questionings, I didn't mean to annoy you guys

 

[Originaldon]

@Originaldon

Sorry for the stupid follow up question but buy: "...You most likely want your head to lul forward..." did you mean "lean forward" as in lowwer the head forwards? Sorry I did not get that phrase.

As for everyone else:
Sorry for repeatedly asking questions that seem to have been answered before, but I read a lot of the wiki's and including PPeH but there are just soo many things that I feel unsure about.

Sorry for all my questionings, I didn't mean to annoy you guys

Yes lean / slump forward so the bag is not for example in contact with a chair or bed so if you turned your head it would not dislodge the bag

 

[Mare Imbrium]

Yes lean / slump forward so the bag is not for example in contact with a chair or bed so if you turned your head it would not dislodge the bag

I think a chair with headrest is recommanded.