Discussion 90% of People who survive a Suicide Attempt don't end up committing suicide.

[MistakesHappen]

Hey SS
I've found this article Article , thanks to @FTL.Wanderer for sharing it btw, which shows that circa 90% of people who survive an attempt won't end up dying of suicide.
What do you all think?

Have the statistics been inflated? Are we really just in a crisis?

 

[Redrock]

If i survive, i will be in the 10%

 

[Struggling]

This freaks me out

 

[TheGoodGuy]

Because the majority of suicide attempts are just people wanting attention that is the same people who call suicide hotlines, if you seriously wanna die you won´t call a stranger to tell you not to do it.

 

[Santiago]

The majority of people who want to CTB start feeling regret once they actually attempt it. The statement 'easier said than done' is a perfect description of suicide.

 

[whatever1111]

The majority of people who want to CTB start feeling regret once they actually attempt it. The statement 'easier said than done' is a perfect description of suicide.

well, there's not much to like about ctb. it's just an escape, that's it, nothing to 'gain'. What i think i want to say is that the regret is a natural symptom of fear, not a special, last-minute insight

 

[Santiago]

well, there's not much to like about ctb. it's just an escape, that's it, nothing to 'gain'. What i think i want to say is that the regret is a natural symptom of fear, not a special, last-minute insight

Although I definitely get what you are saying I don't necessarily completely agree. I think I would describe what you are talking more as doubt.

 

[whatever1111]

Although I definitely get what you are saying I don't necessarily completely agree. I think I would describe what you are talking more as doubt.

do you want to say that people feel regret because they doubt the validity of their decision? after commencing ctb?
I wanted to argue that this doubt is biological, or ontological, not logical - we are not, in essence, rational beings, although the rational part of us is the one most evident to us, so it's natural to doubt such a scary, in today's conditions, decision. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, I had a couple of beers

 

[MistakesHappen]

The problem is that we always think of ourselves as Special and part of the 10%.
"I have all the reasons, I am right about this, I am The exception"
There's nothing wrong about continuing to live, but what i'm trying to understand is if the 90% is continuing living because of fear or because of a new found hope.
We are not talking about people who called the Hotline or admitted themself to the hospital, they survived a deadly jump.
I honestly don't have problems with death, i'm only questioning if all of my reasoning is just a crisis and "delusional".

I hate the "wait till it gets better" argument, but i can't seem to be able to argue against it, that's why i asked the SS-squad

 

[whatever1111]

The problem is that we always think of ourselves as Special and part of the 10%.
"I have all the reasons, I am right about this, I am The exception"
There's nothing wrong about continuing to live, but what i'm trying to understand is if the 90% is continuing living because of fear or because of a new found hope.
We are not talking about people who called the Hotline or admitted themself to the hospital, they survived a deadly jump.
I honestly don't have problems with death, i'm only questioning if all of my reasoning is just a crisis and "delusional".

I hate the "wait till it gets better" argument, but i can't seem to be able to argue against it, that's why i asked the SS-squad

maybe a part of the answer is, a lot of the surviving suicidals get a lot of support after the attempt, a lot of things change, in the family, with their friends. at least partly that might be true. but i have to think about it more

 

[Santiago]

do you want to say that people feel regret because they doubt the validity of their decision? after commencing ctb?
I wanted to argue that this doubt is biological, or ontological, not logical - we are not, in essence, rational beings, although the rational part of us is the one most evident to us, so it's natural to doubt such a scary, in today's conditions, decision. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, I had a couple of beers

I get what you are saying. Doubt is definitely a natural reaction to suicide. However there is a difference between doubt and regret.

When I said regret I was really referring to the realization that suicide isn't the best way out for that person. Often people feel hopeless although they definitely still have hope or reasons to live left.

I am a believer that only a very very little amount of suicidal people can truly say they are 'hopeless'. I understand that is a contoversial thing to say on a suicide forum where people are obviously not in a good place. However from a rational point of view I do truly believe most have hope left (it could be a very tiny bit) which in my opinion has a link to the stat OP was referring to. People only find out that bit of hope once they are about to CTB.

I do have to add failing an attempt doesn't necessarily mean you have hope left. There could obviously be other factors aswell.

 

[311]

I felt no regret when i attempted

 

[whatever1111]

I get what you are saying. Doubt is definitely a natural reaction to suicide. However there is a difference between doubt and regret.

When I said regret I was really referring to the realization that suicide isn't the best way out for that person. Often people feel hopeless although they definitely still have hope or reasons to live left.

I am a believer that only a very very little amount of suicidal people can truly say they are 'hopeless'. I understand that is a contoversial thing to say on a suicide forum where people are obviously not in a good place. However from a rational point of view I do truly believe most have hope left (it could be a very tiny bit) which in my opinion has a link to the stat OP was referring to. People only find out that bit of hope once they are about to CTB.

I do have to add failing an attempt doesn't necessarily mean you have hope left. There could obviously be other factors aswell.

some people are hope-addicts, others are much tougher, I think it's part of the emotional landscape of the person.
also, what would 'being hopeless, but still having hope' mean? of course, we can almost always imagine (hope) ourselves stronger, braver, more willing to fight. a man without legs can hope for new technology that will regrow his legs. logically, ('rationally') all of this is possible. but there's also the part of the person that is trying to predict what is probable, and often this is enough to make a person desperate, although in the moment of ctb the 'what if' mind will probably kick in. i would argue this hopelessness based on high probability of suffering, and not on absolute certainty of suffering, is also rational.

 

[311]

some people are hope-addicts, others are much tougher, I think it's part of the emotional landscape of the person.
also, what would 'being hopeless, but still having hope' mean? of course, we can almost always imagine (hope) ourselves stronger, braver, more willing to fight. a man without legs can hope for new technology that will regrow his legs. logically, ('rationally') all of this is true. but there's also the part of the person that is trying to predict what is probable, and often this is enough to make a person desperate, although in the moment of ctb the 'what if' mind will probably kick in. i would argue this hopelessness based on high probability of suffering, and not on absolute certainty of suffering, is also rational.

Good post

 

[Santiago]

I felt no regret when i attempted

Which is why I said 'not everyone'

some people are hope-addicts, others are much tougher, I think it's part of the emotional landscape of the person.
also, what would 'being hopeless, but still having hope' mean? of course, we can almost always imagine (hope) ourselves stronger, braver, more willing to fight. a man without legs can hope for new technology that will regrow his legs. logically, ('rationally') all of this is possible. but there's also the part of the person that is trying to predict what is probable, and often this is enough to make a person desperate, although in the moment of ctb the 'what if' mind will probably kick in. i would argue this hopelessness based on high probability of suffering, and not on absolute certainty of suffering, is also rational.

Good post indeed. It's an interesting discussion.
However I think the problem here is 'high probability'. When do you justify a suicide because there was a 'high probability' of not getting better? What's a 'high probability'? Since taking your own life is such a serious and drastic thing there almost needs to be a certainty for regret not to kick in.

A man without legs can indeed magically hope for some technology to regrow his legs, but the chance that happens is extremely small (pretty much non existent).

The chance of getting better for a lot of suicidal people is way higher than that. Once again there are people with very good reasons to CTB. For example that man that perhaps wants to die because he has no legs will unlikely feel any regret (assuming having legs is that big of a deal for him) because he realistically knows that it will never get better.

This doesn't apply to most reasons which makes it emotional in most cases rather than rational in my opinion.
Don't you think the majority of suicides are emotional rather than rational?

 

[F_ckthisplace]

Am I being too confident in saying I plan on actually killing myself?

 

[311]

Am I being too confident in saying I plan on actually killing myself?

Np

 

[Santiago]

Am I being too confident in saying I plan on actually killing myself?

Nobody can tell as we don't know your reasoning and other factors that could impact your decision.

 

[whatever1111]

Which is why I said 'not everyone'



Good post indeed. It's an interesting discussion.
However I think the problem here is 'high probability'. When do you justify a suicide because there was a 'high probability' of not getting better? What's a 'high probability'? Since taking your own life is such a serious and drastic thing there almost needs to be a certainty for regret not to kick in.

A man without legs can indeed magically hope for some technology to regrow his legs, but the chance that happens is extremely small (pretty much non existent).

The chance of getting better for a lot of suicidal people is way higher than that. Once again there are people with very good reasons to CTB. For example that man that perhaps wants to die because he has no legs will unlikely feel any regret (assuming having legs is that big of a deal for him) because he realistically knows that it will never get better.

This doesn't apply to most reasons which makes it emotional in most cases rather than rational in my opinion.
Don't you think the majority of suicides are emotional rather than rational?

i have no idea about the profile of the average suicidal person here, to be honest. what's the difference if someone's not an invalid, but is an utter moron? but ok, I agree - I suffered a lot through life, but I was never suicidal till I stumbled upon a situation that I feel is too much for me - a somewhat concrete situation, although with a lot of mental context. but who I am to say when a mental illness, for example, becomes a permanent, or hopeless situation? It depends on the existence of the will to fight, of sth to lose, or its absence. I guess

 

[Santiago]

i have no idea about the profile of the average suicidal person here, to be honest. what's the difference if someone's not an invalid, but is an utter moron? but ok, I agree - I suffered a lot through life, but I was never suicidal till I stumbled upon a situation that I feel is too much for me - a somewhat concrete situation, although with a lot of mental context. but who I am to say when a mental illness, for example, becomes a permanent, or hopeless situation? It depends on the existence of the will to fight, of sth to lose, or its absence. I guess

Yeah I guess it does come down to 'when can a mental illness become a hopeless situation?'.
I guess that's different for each individual person.

It's just my personal believe that people are often too quick with their decision to end it all (especially for young people.) That's just my believe and I could be wrong.

 

[Queer_Kenny]

Hey SS
I've found this article Article , thanks to @FTL.Wanderer for sharing it btw, which shows that circa 90% of people who survive an attempt won't end up dying of suicide.
What do you all think?

Have the statistics been inflated? Are we really just in a crisis?

I think that 90% is greatly inflated. I would believe it is less than half. The other half would try again, and succeed.

 

[whatever1111]

Yeah I guess it does come down to 'when can a mental illness become a hopeless situation?'.
I guess that's different for each individual person.

It's just my personal believe that people are often too quick with their decision to end it all (especially for young people.) That's just my believe and I could be wrong.

having no friends, or being a part of a shitty family, probably quickens the process for many people. love is the only engine of survival, to quote mr. Cohen. without any love, I think most people fall apart.

 

[reginafilangie]

having no friends, or being a part of a shitty family, probably quickens the process for many people. love is the only engine of survival, to quote mr. Cohen. without any love, I think most people fall apart.

I have zero love. I did until I destroyed everything in my path. It's absolutely why I am at my breaking point. It's hard for me to understand those that have love and support but still want to ctb. This wouldn't have even crossed my mind 3 months ago. Now it's all I can think about. I want to ctb tonight more than anything.

 

[whatever1111]

I'm sending my love to you, I'm sorry you're suffering.

 

[a;e]

Yeah, but were all those people attempting it genuinely hoping to die or was it a gesture or act of impulse?
Like people who attempt suicide or self harm can be just doing it as a gesture (no shade to them tho), and they get counted in the stats. And a lot of people do try it on impulse randomly.

I bet if you had the stats including only people with long term suicidal idealation they would be a bit different.
Still there not going to be that high, but thats just the nature of the game, some people want to try die from a rush of emotion, others last years wanting it, and I guess the question would be different if youd ask them "do you wish you had killed yourself" or "do you enjoy being alive?".

 

[reginafilangie]

I'm sending my love to you, I'm sorry you're suffering.

Please don't take offense, but I wish messages like this would help. Unfortunately it just makes me miss the relationships I used to have even more. I don't really know why I joined, it would seem everyone here is really nice and supportive and I cant even accept kind words from a stranger.

 

[lost_soul83]

I just don't wanna think about it or try to rationalize it anymore. If I wanna die, I should have every right. People kill themselves all the time. They just do it slowly by smoking, drinking or doing drugs. Hell, even eating poorly will eventually catch up to you and may kill you. My point is, if I wanna take my own life, I should be able to because it's mine to take, and no one else's, except for God, but he gave us free will to make our own decisions.

 

[Thin Chew]

For me, suicide is just a way to end and leave this cruel world, dead is peace. No suffering, darkness, just like when we sleep.

having no friends, or being a part of a shitty family, probably quickens the process for many people. love is the only engine of survival, to quote mr. Cohen. without any love, I think most people fall apart.

I'm living in a shitty family, aimed me to scold by parents everytime, failed at test/exam, girlfriend leaved me, own personal problem, family problem. Now all I want is to deal with my survival instinct. It's just hard. I need help

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

Hey SS
I've found this article Article , thanks to @FTL.Wanderer for sharing it btw, which shows that circa 90% of people who survive an attempt won't end up dying of suicide.
What do you all think?

Have the statistics been inflated? Are we really just in a crisis?

@Baku, thanks for sharing this article. I've asked Freedenthal and other anti-suicide professionals how they can be confident about their statistics given that not everyone who attempts suicide is either found (dead) or if found is categorized rightly as a suicide. It's also a well-known problem with suicide research, though it's not often discussed, that researchers do not follow patients long enough to draw valid conclusions about what happens to them in the future. And as more and more of us here on SS have been writing in just the past few weeks, it's extremely hard to overcome the survival instinct for many of us. But many who've been suicidal for decades talk about how abysmal their lives have been.

The (other) reasoning error Freedenthal and her ilk make is concluding that their already sloppy statistics mean that since the majority of people who were once suicidal may not die from suicide, this means both that suicide-preoccupation is largely treatable and that people don't die from suicide because their lives become so much better they choose to stick around. Maybe they stick around out of fear and survival instinct but get worse with age. But whatever makes the professionals feel more competent and self-congratulatory.

 

[Thin Chew]

A

@Baku, thanks for sharing this article. I've asked Freedenthal and other anti-suicide professionals how they can be confident about their statistics given that not everyone who attempts suicide is either found (dead) or if found is categorized rightly as a suicide. It's also a well-known problem with suicide research, though it's not often discussed, that researchers do not follow patients long enough to draw valid conclusions about what happens to them in the future. And as more and more of us here on SS have been writing in just the past few weeks, it's extremely hard to overcome the survival instinct for many of us. But many who've been suicidal for decades talk about how abysmal their lives have been.

The (other) reasoning error Freedenthal and her ilk make is concluding that their already sloppy statistics mean that since the majority of people who were once suicidal may not die from suicide, this means both that suicide-preoccupation is largely treatable and that people don't die from suicide because their lives become so much better they choose to stick around. Maybe they stick around out of fear and survival instinct but get worse with age. But whatever makes the professionals feel more competent and self-congratulatory.

any idea how to deal with survival instinct?