Venting "You have to love yourself first before other people love you!"

[Takamagahara]

Today, a brief criticism of one of my most despised platitudes, brought about by a futile attempt at debating one of the no-lifers over at /r/SW.

Do the people saying this not understand how mind-bogglingly stupid this is? It's like saying, "If you're starving, just imagine yourself some food and don't be hungry first!"

To love oneself in the absence of love is not confidence or self-assurance, it is narcissism. Humans are social creatures. None of us are raised in a vacuum. Each and every one of us rely on the judgment and acceptance of our peers, friends, and family in order to develop our self-image. We are a product of how others see us, and to claim that this can simply be ignored and overcome is a sign of a true mental disorder. To be able to latch onto an overwhelming belief that you are important despite mountains of evidence proving otherwise--surrounded by people who hate you, people who abuse you, people who ignore you, people who only use and discard you--only speaks to an unflinching sense of self-delusion.

You do not overcome the loathing of others by ignoring the truth. You can only do that when there is no truth to be seen. You do not overcome loneliness by pretending that being a social outcast does not bother you. You can only do that when the people around you do not reject you. You do not overcome hatred by claiming it doesn't matter if no one cares about you. You can only do that when someone does care about you.

In the absence of the love of others, you are left with your own image as the only possible source for self-love. And that image is one that is twisted and malformed, warped and damaged, a shattered mirror in which the reflections are nothing but a mockery, produced by the very circumstances that left you totally absent of love to begin with.

The ability to ignore how much everyone hates you and delude yourself into believing they actually like you?

It's called denial.

 

[Uk2023]

I hate this saying too BUT it has some truth

I don't believe it attracts love instead to love yourself is to feel better and then that way people are drawn to you (but that doesn't mean they are decent)

I find it hard to want to play this game of self love for the goal of attracting others

Instead it's self love needed to actually cope (successfully avoid) others and not be drained or distracted by them

 

[Takamagahara]

I hate this saying too BUT it has some truth

I don't believe it attracts love instead to love yourself is to feel better and then that way people are drawn to you (but that doesn't mean they are decent)

I find it hard to want to play this game of self love for the goal of attracting others

Instead it's self love needed to actually cope (successfully avoid) others and not be drained or distracted by them

I think the source of my animosity towards this phrase is that I do actually love myself. I'm comfortable in my skin. As a sole, individual person, absent everything else, I feel complete.

I love being me. Sure, it would be nice to be more physically attractive or have a different set of talents, but I had never wished I was another person in terms my personality and of being comfortable inside my own head.

And yet, I still recognize that it's absurd. I still feel incredibly isolated and alone. The people I love and care for and the people who love and care for me are two completely different groups of people with no overlap.

 

[Uk2023]

I think the source of my animosity towards this phrase is that I do actually love myself. I'm comfortable in my skin. As a sole, individual person, absent everything else, I feel complete.

I love being me. Sure, it would be nice to be more physically attractive or have a different set of talents, but I had never wished I was another person in terms my personality and of being comfortable inside my own head.

And yet, I still recognize that it's absurd. I still feel incredibly isolated and alone. The people I love and care for and the people who love and care for me are two completely different groups of people with no overlap.

I'm curious about the 2 groups

How would you describe them - the ones you care for and they ones that care for you?

 

[Takamagahara]

I'm curious about the 2 groups

How would you describe them - the ones you care for and they ones that care for you?

Firstly, thank you for asking. I'm grateful for your curiosity about me, however long it lasts.

The short answer is that I connect to the former emotionally and feel nothing about the latter. "Emotional connection" is a bit of a nebulous thing to define. I'll try to be detailed.

I'm an introvert with a social battery. That's not to say that I can't be outgoing, but around most people, being around them is draining and I inevitably need recharge time. The people I love and care for are people who don't drain that battery. I want to be around them. I feel comfortable around them all the time. It feels good to be myself. It feels good to change myself for the better when I'm around them. When I open up to them about my problems, the problems feel temporary and transient, and I know that things will be better as long as I get to talk to them tomorrow. Things feel hopeful. They've lived hard and difficult lives. Some of them have overcome it, some of them are still working, and some of them are as low as I am. They're not perfect; they're diverse, but I connect to them emotionally because I enjoy being me whenever I'm around them. When I explain something about myself to them, they understand, or at least want to understand. I never have to worry about wearing a mask around them.

The people in the second group who love and care for me only do so because of the acts that I put on. Whenever I let glimpses of my real self slip past, they are waiting with criticism or judgment of "Why do you think like that? lol". I am always watching my behaviour around them. They are people who I can't bring myself to care for because they have had easy and simple lives devoid of hardship. When I describe something like a profound and pervasive loneliness, they can't relate to it or don't understand what I am talking about. But they like me and like being around me because I'm very good at pretending to care about them.

I guess I'd have to think about this more before I feel like I put it into proper words. But I guess that's the gist of it.

 

[lachrymost]

You make a good point.

I've always heard it: "You have to love yourself before loving others." Which is also stupid.

 

[exiled]

I understand the sentiment behind this but I, too, disagree. I get it to the extent that you should have that basic self respect for yourself and love yourself enough to know what to let in and out of your life. And if there is not self love, it isn't necessarily healthy to search for someone else to fill that void. HOWEVER, it just seems like such a shitty condition to place upon another person.

Love yourself or I can't love you? That's such a messy ultimatum. I also believe that the love of others CAN inspire us to love ourselves more than we think. There might be a fine line here, and it could quickly turn into an unhealthy dependency, but I truly believe we need the love of others to reignite the love we have for ourselves, and if someone is struggling, what good is it to make them feel unlovable until they fix a problem they never asked to have?

 

[BlazingBob]

It's right up there with the permanent solution cliche

 

[edu0z]

Today, a brief criticism of one of my most despised platitudes, brought about by a futile attempt at debating one of the no-lifers over at /r/SW.

Do the people saying this not understand how mind-bogglingly stupid this is? It's like saying, "If you're starving, just imagine yourself some food and don't be hungry first!"

To love oneself in the absence of love is not confidence or self-assurance, it is narcissism. Humans are social creatures. None of us are raised in a vacuum. Each and every one of us rely on the judgment and acceptance of our peers, friends, and family in order to develop our self-image. We are a product of how others see us, and to claim that this can simply be ignored and overcome is a sign of a true mental disorder. To be able to latch onto an overwhelming belief that you are important despite mountains of evidence proving otherwise--surrounded by people who hate you, people who abuse you, people who ignore you, people who only use and discard you--only speaks to an unflinching sense of self-delusion.

You do not overcome the loathing of others by ignoring the truth. You can only do that when there is no truth to be seen. You do not overcome loneliness by pretending that being a social outcast does not bother you. You can only do that when the people around you do not reject you. You do not overcome hatred by claiming it doesn't matter if no one cares about you. You can only do that when someone does care about you.

In the absence of the love of others, you are left with your own image as the only possible source for self-love. And that image is one that is twisted and malformed, warped and damaged, a shattered mirror in which the reflections are nothing but a mockery, produced by the very circumstances that left you totally absent of love to begin with.

The ability to ignore how much everyone hates you and delude yourself into believing they actually like you?

It's called denial.

Depends on what you mean by love. I think that loving is caring, not needing. a dependency relationship is not love. And I'm not going to argue with anyone but I'll just say this: when I was little I was a social dreg, and when I started to love myself and to think about myself and my things and my own way, that's when I was able to meet incredible people and have incredible friends and fell in love. from other persons.

 

[Takamagahara]

I'd like to thank everyone for their responses; I wasn't expecting so many thoughtful takes. Obviously, my initial rant is rather deliberately lacking in nuance owing to its source as, well, an emotional outburst; semantic clarity wasn't exactly a priority for me at the time of writing. But if there is anyone here who would like to seriously share their perspectives on both the semantics of the phrase itself and the social mechanisms suggested by the phrase, I heartily invite them to do so. I'm always interested to learn more.

Of course, I acknowledge that it is a necessity to behave with self-care, self-confidence, and self-love in order to garner love from others. Like attracts like, after all. However, I would still propose that the notion of formulating a positive self-image from a social vacuum or in the complete and notable absence of similar positivity necessitates delusion--that is, a fundamental denial of empirical evidence. What conclusions would be drawn from someone who likes themselves despite nobody else liking them?

Again, I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their views and thoughts. This is why SS is the best community on the Internet, IMO. At least for me.

 

[Zebulon]

I agree.
I mean how delusional would it be to say for example: "I'm the fastest runner" eventhough you never won against anyone?
As a human you can't block out all external sources of feedback. How would you determine if you offended someone for example. You talk with them, they give you negative feedback and you just say: nah, I'm personally fine with my statement so they should be too.
And so you continue to exhibit the negative behaviour because you block out all external sources of feedback.

The love yourself stuff is thightly interwoven with selfworth and selfesteem. If you love yourself, you probably have high selfesteem. And high selfesteem is one of the most desirable traits. So the saying is theoretiaclly correct.
But it doenst work if you have no grounds to love yourself, if you have nobody who mirrors or encourages your good traits. If you only get negative Feedback, you naturally stop doing things, which produces negative feedback. Over time you cant differentiate possible "desirable" behaviour with bad behaviour, since you get the same feedback for both.


TL;DR
human social interaction is highly dependent on social cues and feedback from external sources. To love yourself only works if you a) get atleast some positive feedback on your behaviour or b) block out all opinions, feedback and social clues from others, which is a narcissistic trait.

 

[Takamagahara]

Over time you cant differentiate possible "desirable" behaviour with bad behaviour, since you get the same feedback for both.

I just wanted to say that I thought this observation was a piece of incredible insight, to me. I'm actually floored.

We use the reactions of others to build context--to be shown, socially and culturally, what is acceptable behavior and what is not.

How can you ever hope to develop what would be considered an "attractive" personality if the people around you don't actively help you build context by reinforcing your positives? If they give you the same negative feedback without taking the time to help you establish that context?

Thank you again for your wonderful insight. I really feel like I learned something.

 

[Zebulon]

We use the reactions of others to build context--to be shown, socially and culturally, what is acceptable behavior and what is not.

How can you ever hope to develop what would be considered an "attractive" personality if the people around you don't actively help you build context by reinforcing your positives? If they give you the same negative feedback without taking the time to help you establish that context?

Thats exactly the point. Differnt cultures with different social norms exist. Soely because of that.

There is also the psychological concept of lerned helplesness, which ties into that.
Summary: If everthing you do triggers a negative stimuli (for example electroshocks or disgust in the face of the other person) you just learn that everything you do is wrong. So you just stop doing things, because the outcome is the same anyways.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do understand where you are coming from. Like you say- no one exists in a vacuum. I suppose I've mostly seen it as a defensive mechanism though. Connected as other people have said- to self respect and self worth. So that- if someone should be unfortunate enough to get embroiled in a relationship where they were being used or abused- they would be able to feel this as an affront and do something about it. If the person really had no love or care for themself- I imagine they may be more likely to put up with it. Maybe even think they initiated the behaviour, or somehow deserved it. Sadly- I think it is people who have a battered self esteem who seem to attract people who abuse them further.

 

[venting247]

I hate this saying and I don't fully understand it, but it is sometimes true

 

[mizumono]

Fuck that! I posted a meme abt never having received an ouce of love my entire life and someone replied by saying "but do you give out love? if you dont give love you can't expect to receive love" and it just made me furious. These saying can only be true in a fair world. Yeah, assuming the world is fair and just and balanced, it's obvious… you love and are loved in the same measure. But this is NOT a fair world, and you see it being unfair every single day. I have given out love my whole life, being helpful, not wanting to be a burden, quietly being beaten down by life but always willing to comfort someone else… and never received anything in return. Nothing to show for, no friends, no relationships. So fuck that, completely untrue.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

"You have to love yourself first before other people love you!"

Maybe that's been my problem all these years.

 

[jbear824]

It's such a bullshit concept. And not at all how love works. Love doesn't follow human rules. You can despise yourself and that won't stop everyone from loving you. I fucking hate myself and partner loves me with all his heart.

Also the phrase "if you can't live yourself, how will you love anyone else?" Is equally as bullshit for the same reasons. I hate myself, but I love my partner.

It's all just crap and people trying to apply flawed human control over something that can't be controlled or ruled in the first place.

 

[ikadasui]

Firstly, thank you for asking. I'm grateful for your curiosity about me, however long it lasts.

The short answer is that I connect to the former emotionally and feel nothing about the latter. "Emotional connection" is a bit of a nebulous thing to define. I'll try to be detailed.

I'm an introvert with a social battery. That's not to say that I can't be outgoing, but around most people, being around them is draining and I inevitably need recharge time. The people I love and care for are people who don't drain that battery. I want to be around them. I feel comfortable around them all the time. It feels good to be myself. It feels good to change myself for the better when I'm around them. When I open up to them about my problems, the problems feel temporary and transient, and I know that things will be better as long as I get to talk to them tomorrow. Things feel hopeful. They've lived hard and difficult lives. Some of them have overcome it, some of them are still working, and some of them are as low as I am. They're not perfect; they're diverse, but I connect to them emotionally because I enjoy being me whenever I'm around them. When I explain something about myself to them, they understand, or at least want to understand. I never have to worry about wearing a mask around them.

The people in the second group who love and care for me only do so because of the acts that I put on. Whenever I let glimpses of my real self slip past, they are waiting with criticism or judgment of "Why do you think like that? lol". I am always watching my behaviour around them. They are people who I can't bring myself to care for because they have had easy and simple lives devoid of hardship. When I describe something like a profound and pervasive loneliness, they can't relate to it or don't understand what I am talking about. But they like me and like being around me because I'm very good at pretending to care about them.

I guess I'd have to think about this more before I feel like I put it into proper words. But I guess that's the gist of it.

Hmm. I understand the last portion wearing the liar's mask, but is it really that black and white? I only have one person who knows how baseborn I really am, but even in my other groups I can say that I love those friends, even if I do need to recharge afterwards. I suppose it depends how close you are but after spending a fair amount of time in an environment that is completely optional It'd be hard not to care for them

 

[SpiderLink]

I

Today, a brief criticism of one of my most despised platitudes, brought about by a futile attempt at debating one of the no-lifers over at /r/SW.

Do the people saying this not understand how mind-bogglingly stupid this is? It's like saying, "If you're starving, just imagine yourself some food and don't be hungry first!"

To love oneself in the absence of love is not confidence or self-assurance, it is narcissism. Humans are social creatures. None of us are raised in a vacuum. Each and every one of us rely on the judgment and acceptance of our peers, friends, and family in order to develop our self-image. We are a product of how others see us, and to claim that this can simply be ignored and overcome is a sign of a true mental disorder. To be able to latch onto an overwhelming belief that you are important despite mountains of evidence proving otherwise--surrounded by people who hate you, people who abuse you, people who ignore you, people who only use and discard you--only speaks to an unflinching sense of self-delusion.

You do not overcome the loathing of others by ignoring the truth. You can only do that when there is no truth to be seen. You do not overcome loneliness by pretending that being a social outcast does not bother you. You can only do that when the people around you do not reject you. You do not overcome hatred by claiming it doesn't matter if no one cares about you. You can only do that when someone does care about you.

In the absence of the love of others, you are left with your own image as the only possible source for self-love. And that image is one that is twisted and malformed, warped and damaged, a shattered mirror in which the reflections are nothing but a mockery, produced by the very circumstances that left you totally absent of love to begin with.

The ability to ignore how much everyone hates you and delude yourself into believing they actually like you?

It's called denial.

I haven't read what you said, but the title. I hate that quote, it makes no sense to me. I can love others before I love myself, but there's no way I can love myself.

 

[lilypeachoo]

Firstly, thank you for asking. I'm grateful for your curiosity about me, however long it lasts.

The short answer is that I connect to the former emotionally and feel nothing about the latter. "Emotional connection" is a bit of a nebulous thing to define. I'll try to be detailed.

I'm an introvert with a social battery. That's not to say that I can't be outgoing, but around most people, being around them is draining and I inevitably need recharge time. The people I love and care for are people who don't drain that battery. I want to be around them. I feel comfortable around them all the time. It feels good to be myself. It feels good to change myself for the better when I'm around them. When I open up to them about my problems, the problems feel temporary and transient, and I know that things will be better as long as I get to talk to them tomorrow. Things feel hopeful. They've lived hard and difficult lives. Some of them have overcome it, some of them are still working, and some of them are as low as I am. They're not perfect; they're diverse, but I connect to them emotionally because I enjoy being me whenever I'm around them. When I explain something about myself to them, they understand, or at least want to understand. I never have to worry about wearing a mask around them.

The people in the second group who love and care for me only do so because of the acts that I put on. Whenever I let glimpses of my real self slip past, they are waiting with criticism or judgment of "Why do you think like that? lol". I am always watching my behaviour around them. They are people who I can't bring myself to care for because they have had easy and simple lives devoid of hardship. When I describe something like a profound and pervasive loneliness, they can't relate to it or don't understand what I am talking about. But they like me and like being around me because I'm very good at pretending to care about them.

I guess I'd have to think about this more before I feel like I put it into proper words. But I guess that's the gist of it.

I totally understand how you feel. I do the same thing with my friends too. I never thought my feelings could be explained in mere words until I read your post. Thank you for sharing.

 

[pyroxenic]

Beautifully said, as well as your other responses. Youve worded it in a really good way and im glad statements like these are called to BS, because we dont exist in a vaccum. If youve been put into this world to be only abused during your lifecourse, of course youll end up hating yourself. Saying you have to love yoursslf first before you can love other people only proves further that there is something deeply wrong with you and you have to fix it; and that because of 'it' you deserved to be abused in the first place. These statements can bring even more damage and shame to someone. Other people who never had deep feeling of self-hatered like this need to step back and stop thinking and saying like it will be helpful for everyone.