Discussion Why we should let them call us losers

[FreddieQuell]

A basic human need is to have control. Control being the idea that an individual's actions work toward some desired outcome. Which I guess is motivation in itself, the motivation to do things, to take action, to work towards some desirable outcome. It is very difficult for the average person to live with the idea that external factors - things we cannot control - can lead to such undesired outcomes that render a life useless.

How many people do you know that stop to have a conversation with a homeless person to find out what factors led to this person being in his or her current situation? I don't know any, except for me. I think people just don't want to know that things beyond their control can lead to such dire outcomes.

To place the blame on the person suiciding is a coping mechanism for those left behind. When the blame is placed purely on the individual instead of taking circumstances into account, the idea of control and motivation is preserved. It is a way for them to say, and believe, things like 'I would never end up in this situation' or 'Only weak people commit suicide', as if the individual holds the key to an outcome, foregoing circumstances that would have led them down the same path.

Many here view people that see no other way out to end their suffering except to take their own life with sympathy and understanding, we are in the same boat after all. Those left behind need the idea of control (and motivation). To place the blame on the individual suiciding is a coping mechanism many need to continue their own lives. If the blame is placed purely on the person suiciding, they can continue believing they would never end up in a similar situation.

It might be an ultimate act of kindness on our part to have others think and say about us what they want, just so they can continue their lives.

 

[itsamadworld]

The system is so hellbent to the pro-life, that it more than borders on cruelty! The way modern medicine insists on keeping people alive at all costs, just makes me ill...I worked in healthcare for many years, and the lengths people go to to keep people alive....it's truly ugly! Studies have shown, modern medicine actually increases suffering in death, more than in days past!

A peaceful death is the only thing that brings me hope! I can finally escape this world, get away from narrow-minded pro-life a-holes that run the system! I may have turned into a misanthrope somewhere down the line. I don't really care for human nature. It's gotten to the point to where i just plead to who-so-ever is in charge of the universe, if there is reincarnation, please don't send me back to earth or create me to be a human again. I just don't care for the controlling, know-it-all nature of our species. It's very ugly.

 

[PrettyMoose]

Great post. I like the way you think. I've talked to homeless people before too. I met a man who's house had burned down with all of his belongings and he ended up on the street. That's something that could happen to anyone at anytime, their home could burn to the ground and then they are literally homeless. Yet many would look at that man and believe that he's homeless because of personal faults. You're right to draw the comparison to suicidal people, it's a very similar concept.

 

[itsamadworld]

I met a man who's house had burned down with all of his belongings and he ended up on the street. That's something that could happen to anyone at anytime,

That is truly so sad for him. Life today is very complex in the modern system. All it can take is a one to a few set-backs, then all hell can break loose, at any age! Makes me wish for the life of the cave people (or to not be on this planet at all would have been more ideal). Maybe life was more brutal back then, but then again, life was supposedly shorter! With today's average lifespan of 86 or thereabouts- that's a lot of years for shit to go wrong! And I'm not even halfway there! I just don't want to be under the watchful eyes of the state for much longer...wears on my soul!

 

[FreddieQuell]

The system is so hellbent to the pro-life, that it more than borders on cruelty! The way modern medicine insists on keeping people alive at all costs, just makes me ill...I worked in healthcare for many years, and the lengths people go to to keep people alive....it's truly ugly! Studies have shown, modern medicine actually increases suffering in death, more than in days past!

Pro-life if you were born in the western world. I've found it shocking how little a human life is worth in the many third world countries I've been to. No medical facilities whatsoever and the risk of getting killed over $10.

To me it's extreme how we in the western world can take it for granted that we'll do anything to 'save' a life while with that same amount of money hundreds of lives could have been saved in the third world (notwithstanding corruption and bureaucracy)

 

[itsamadworld]

Pro-life if you were born in the western world. I've found it shocking how little a human life is worth in the many third world countries I've been to. No medical facilities whatsoever and the risk of getting killed over $10.

To me it's extreme how we in the western world can take it for granted that we'll do anything to 'save' a life while with that same amount of money hundreds of lives could have been saved in the third world (notwithstanding corruption and bureaucracy)

Your heart may bleed for third world countries, but I have such a case of compassion fatigue, that I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to take care of themselves but themselves in the global sense.The western world needs to mind it's own business in my opinion, and let the world exist as it wants. I resent that I was born in a nation that it has to police everyone else..

However, other countries have higher birth rates. That should not be my or my fellow citizens problem to take care of other people's children. If people all over the world accept vaccinations which 'saved' all those 3rd world childrens lives, but only for them to end up with a very shitty quality of lives. If the parents accept vaccinations for their kids, but refuse birth control for religious or cultural reasons- it's overpopulation = mass starvation. That is the result, and it's the parents fault, not mine or most of my citizens here in the west. I am not god, and it not my job to pay for their children which they chose to create....People have to figure that out, and change the attitude of the culture and realize as a society that can't continue to have 8 surviving children per every woman, because you will start shitting where you eat! Un-intended consequences of modern medicine. But i didn't start the fire. I didn't ask to be born. AND MOST importantly, i don't have children....so not my problem to play fix-it!

 

[FreddieQuell]

Your heart may bleed for third world countries, but I have such a case of compassion fatigue, that I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to take care of themselves but themselves. The western world needs to mind it's own business in my opinion, and let the world exist as it wants. I resent that I was born in a nation that it has to police everyone else..

However, other countries have higher birth rates. That should not be my or my fellow citizens problem to take care of other people's children. If people all over the world accept vaccinations which 'saved' all those 3rd world childrens lives, but only for them to end up with a very shitty quality of lives. If the parents accept vaccinations for their kids, but refuse birth control for religious or cultural reasons- it's overpopulation = mass starvation. That is the result, and it's the parents fault, not mine or most of my citizens here in the west. I am not god, and it not my job to pay for their children which they chose to create....People have to figure that out, and change the attitude of the culture and realize as a society that can't continue to have 8 surviving children per every woman, because you will start shitting where you eat! Un-intended consequences of modern medicine. But i didn't start the fire. I didn't ask to be born. AND MOST importantly, i don't have children....so not my problem to play fix-it!

I'm just saying it's a mad world ;) Plus the same mechanism is at work here: most people can't fathom the poverty and misery in third world countries, which is conflicting with the view of individual control over one's life

 

[SpottedPanda]

It strikes me as grossly insensitive for anybody to call somebody else who committed suicide a loser. I can't even imagine the sort of person who would utter something so callous. I'm picturing a Wall Street banker, snorting lines, and speeding in his Ferrari.

My point is, really, any relatively decent person will show compassion to a suicide case, and good people always assume the best of people, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't know any good people who use the term 'loser' in everyday life as it is. I don't think I'd want to.

 

[FreddieQuell]

It strikes me as grossly insensitive for anybody to call somebody else who committed suicide a loser. I can't even imagine the sort of person who would utter something so callous. I'm picturing a Wall Street banker, snorting lines, and speeding in his Ferrari.

My point is, really, any relatively decent person will show compassion to a suicide case, and good people always assume the best of people, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't know any good people who use the term 'loser' in everyday life as it is. I don't think I'd want to.

An exaggeration, the point remains the same.

 

[itsamadworld]

I'm just saying it's a mad world ;)

I wasn't trying to come across as rude as prolly you weren't really heart-bleeding. I just hear so much of that from the pro-lifers 'save the babies in the third world.' Preachers get involved, like Joyce Meyer, trying to guilt everyone out of money with their telethons or 15 minute 'poverty porn' commercials ... Yet, there are so many people on the planet due to modern medicine, that many of the children saved today, may have been better off nature taking them out, like was allowed in days past. A slow death of starvation is heart-breaking. THis save them to starve them mentality is truly ugly, but they put a false cloak of goodness over it........I think these so-called "saviors" like the beast i mentioned above, are really sadistic and evil. To vaccinate all those children (science), no giving birth-control(religion)- tricking and meddling with nature, so now there is SOOOO much more suffering....it makes me sick that pro-lifers make people suffer like that. I didn't intend it to come off as accusatory of a bleeding heart, but just more a distaste at this type of pro-lifer.

 

[Ardesevent]

I think the issue is that pro-lifers are just influenced by what other people say. If you ask one why they're against suicide, they'll probably say something cliche from a movie like "it's a coward's way out." If you ask one to explain why they believe that, they'd have nothing. They've just been told that over and over again, so they just believe it without any questions.
If any pro-lifer ended up in one of our situations, they'd abandon that way of thinking without a second thought.

 

[Deleted member 17331]

Your heart may bleed for third world countries, but I have such a case of compassion fatigue, that I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to take care of themselves but themselves in the global sense.The western world needs to mind it's own business in my opinion, and let the world exist as it wants. I resent that I was born in a nation that it has to police everyone else..

However, other countries have higher birth rates. That should not be my or my fellow citizens problem to take care of other people's children. If people all over the world accept vaccinations which 'saved' all those 3rd world childrens lives, but only for them to end up with a very shitty quality of lives. If the parents accept vaccinations for their kids, but refuse birth control for religious or cultural reasons- it's overpopulation = mass starvation. That is the result, and it's the parents fault, not mine or most of my citizens here in the west. I am not god, and it not my job to pay for their children which they chose to create....People have to figure that out, and change the attitude of the culture and realize as a society that can't continue to have 8 surviving children per every woman, because you will start shitting where you eat! Un-intended consequences of modern medicine. But i didn't start the fire. I didn't ask to be born. AND MOST importantly, i don't have children....so not my problem to play fix-it!

@itsamadworld, I consider some of your posts to be very smart, but in this last one you forgot many factors.

I am my father's penultimate daughter, he has more than 13 children. Sometimes I ask myself "Why?", "Why are so many children, and who still grew up without support?", After that I also observe my father's psychological situation, and I consider the neglect for education, especially sex education in my country. If you can see most of the countries with the highest birth rates, these are the underdeveloped. In other words, they are countries with education and health totally precarious.

I have many cousins who do not know what a condom is or how to prevent pregnancy. My cousin gave birth without even knowing she was pregnant. I was a fluke myself, my birth was not a choice, I was simply born because my parents' condom was damaged. I don't know what country you are from, but it would be much more meaningful to look at social factors in poorer countries.

Thanks for your attention.

*
I apologize if I messed up the topic. I really found it interesting and the idea of this topic gave me a lot of comfort. I was always afraid of what they would say about me after my death. Gratitude.

 

[itsamadworld]

@itsamadworld, I consider some of your posts to be very smart, but in this last one you forgot many factors.

I am my father's penultimate daughter, he has more than 13 children. Sometimes I ask myself "Why?", "Why are so many children, and who still grew up without support?", After that I also observe my father's psychological situation, and I consider the neglect for education, especially sex education in my country. If you can see most of the countries with the highest birth rates, these are the underdeveloped. In other words, they are countries with education and health totally precarious.

I have many cousins who do not know what a condom is or how to prevent pregnancy. My cousin gave birth without even knowing she was pregnant. I was a fluke myself, my birth was not a choice, I was simply born because my parents' condom was damaged. I don't know what country you are from, but it would be much more meaningful to look at social factors in poorer countries.

Thanks for your attention.

*
I apologize if I messed up the topic. I really found it interesting and the idea of this topic gave me a lot of comfort. I was always afraid of what they would say about me after my death. Gratitude.

True. Lack of knowledge and lack of education will create that. I also made another post bellow the one you responded to, clariflying and stating I do find it heart-breaking this "save them to starve them mentality" of these 'think they do-gooders' that try to save the babies, and they are typically christains. That people would intervene in the third world but not give, nor provide, or they even prevent people from receiving proper sex education/birth control in the name of religion or nepotism too-which is human nature.... it just seems many of these so-called saviors, or people that call out for others hearts to bleed, can end up doing more damage to others, than good. Good intentions; bad consequences type of thing. Pardon me if I came across as inconsiderate.

 

[Bct]

Indeed. There are lots of people who think our successes or failures are only caused by our own actions, disregarding circumstances that lead us to that situation. I understand we still need to put some efforts, but outside forces can screw us badly even if we're already on track. If only people are more aware of that...

 

[262653]

Good point to keep in mind. It can neutralize the effects of insults on the suicidal person without distressing the coping person even more.

I'm still having problems with the damage done to suicidals as a result of other people coping. It's not much different from a bully hurting other people to make himself feel good. Someone could say that killing oneself also deals damage to the close concerned ones. I guess it boils down to personal interests, and because they're (interests) in conflict, to who has more power.

 

[ceelo]

Why care what anyone else thinks? they'll think whatever they want regardless, even entertaining this comes across as a defence mechanism.

I say this let them all say you are losers by which ever model they are judging you on but never forget that loser as you might be if death is achieved you have committed the most courageous act possible by man and that's a fact so let them say what they may.

 

[lostangel]

That is a good post I never really thought about it like that.