Venting Why is the suicidal person considered selfish rather than the one stopping them?

[MeltingHeart]

Why is the suicidal person considered selfish? admittedly my friends would be upset at first but they would get over it-after all people get ill/ accidents and die and people are sad for a bit but then of course get on with their lives (and many of them-even my best friends-werent really there for me when i really needed to talk- wayyy before my breakdwon) -even though I still luv them & dont blame them but just felt quite let down. I have no parental love & no other family. If i aim to cause as little upset (i.e minimise number of people that find me-just the emergency services-that lets face it have to deal with a lot worst anyway- and many people die in accidents/ illness anyways), why I am being told by the so called 'parental' people in my life - that have never ever taken an interest in my life till now-calling me selfish for wanting to ctb- are they not equally selfish for somewhat insisting that for me to kill myself if the most selfish thing a person can do?!! it seems to me to have no logic , am i wrong?

 

[Sweet emotion]

No you're not wrong AT ALL. I think it is the most selfish thing in the world for someone to stop someone from ending their pain. I tell people do not try and stop me and don't even think about calling an ambulance because I will leave and never come back. I hate it when I hear stories that people were found unconscious and someone called the ambulance. It makes me sick. Obviously that person is in the worst pain in the world whether it's physical like in my situation, mental or both. So why would someone want to stop that person from ending their pain? I have this argument all the time with people and I'm on your side with this.

A few weeks ago my mother's friends son accidentally overdosed on fentanyl. He thought it was heroin he was buying but it turned out to be fentanyl. The mother was in a lot of pain but she's still living. And my best friend killed herself because she had the same physical condition as me. This was 3 years ago. Her mother took a vacation to Aruba so yeah life goes on for the living. It's very sad of course but they get by.

 

[GreyMonkey]

It is selfish.

All mental health issues are selfish.

Its entirely preoccupied on one's own suffering often to the exclusion of the consideration for anyone else.

In suicide it is all about the alleviation of one's own suffering without regard to the impact on anyone else. It is entirely self centred.

This is not to say one need be ashamed of it. Lots of things are selfish.

If it hurts that much and one really wants to end it, so be it.

Yet it is a selfish act. It is an act only for the benefit of oneself and no other. There is no situation where one might suicide for the benefit of others.

 

[Nem]

It is selfish.

All mental health issues are selfish.

Its entirely preoccupied on one's own suffering often to the exclusion of the consideration for anyone else.

In suicide it is all about the alleviation of one's own suffering without regard to the impact on anyone else. It is entirely self centred.

This is not to say one need be ashamed of it. Lots of things are selfish.

If it hurts that much and one really wants to end it, so be it.

Yet it is a selfish act. It is an act only for the benefit of oneself and no other. There is no situation where one might suicide for the benefit of others.

I can not argue but I do think that if some people on earth ended their lives it would benefit others. Like certain politicians etc
Peace/hugs

 

[GreyMonkey]

I can not argue but I do think that if some people on earth ended their lives it would benefit others. Like certain politicians etc
Peace/hugs

Changing their actions would be of more benefit.

 

[MeltingHeart]

It is selfish.

All mental health issues are selfish.

Its entirely preoccupied on one's own suffering often to the exclusion of the consideration for anyone else.

In suicide it is all about the alleviation of one's own suffering without regard to the impact on anyone else. It is entirely self centred.

This is not to say one need be ashamed of it. Lots of things are selfish.

If it hurts that much and one really wants to end it, so be it.

Yet it is a selfish act. It is an act only for the benefit of oneself and no other. There is no situation where one might suicide for the benefit of others.

But if alive and from a young age told that you were unwanted, a mistake, that having children ruins yr life, and even now all these years later (following a severe breakdown) am shouted at, told I am yet again causing alot of trouble, disruption and upset to their 'normal' lives due to my feelings (that I seem to have no control over) I have no children & no family members that have ever told or shown love or care (only the acute opposite of that), then surely to depart would be extricating them from all the hassle that my life has caused them and is still generating. Yes short term hassle in dealing with the immediate aftermath. I would leave money to cover my funeral costs. I have no children. Ive tried many types of anti-depressants. They dont work. They wont give me therapy.

But if alive and from a young age told that you were unwanted, a mistake, that having children ruins yr life, and even now all these years later (following a severe breakdown) am shouted at, told I am yet again causing alot of trouble, disruption and upset to their 'normal' lives due to my feelings (that I seem to have no control over) I have no children & no family members that have ever told or shown love or care (only the acute opposite of that), then surely to depart would be extricating them from all the hassle that my life has caused them and is still generating. Yes short term hassle in dealing with the immediate aftermath-but that would just be short term. I would leave money to cover my funeral costs. I have no children. Ive tried many types of anti-depressants. They dont work. They wont give me therapy. Not trying to martyr myself for any dramatic reasons- but I do genuinely believe that in the long run it really would be for the benefit of others. I think ultimately there really would be a sense of relief for all concerned-but it would be hard to fully clarify why this actually would be the case in my circumstance without going into alot of detail and without knowing some of the individuals I have made reference to.

 

[GreyMonkey]

But if alive and from a young age told that you were unwanted, a mistake, that having children ruins yr life, and even now all these years later (following a severe breakdown) am shouted at, told I am yet again causing alot of trouble, disruption and upset to their 'normal' lives due to my feelings (that I seem to have no control over) I have no children & no family members that have ever told or shown love or care (only the acute opposite of that), then surely to depart would be extricating them from all the hassle that my life has caused them and is still generating. Yes short term hassle in dealing with the immediate aftermath. I would leave money to cover my funeral costs. I have no children. Ive tried many types of anti-depressants. They dont work. They wont give me therapy.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not invalidating your pain in any way whatsoever nor am I saying that ending your life is not a viable option nor am I saying that you are in any way bad for not being able to improve your situation nor am I saying that a burden might be lifted from those in your life by your absence.

In short I am not invalidating your experience in any way.

Yet suicide is a recourse to alleviate our own pain, this is what it is and by definition then it is a selfish act. And that's ok.

 

[MeltingHeart]

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not invalidating your pain in any way whatsoever nor am I saying that ending your life is not a viable option nor am I saying that you are in any way bad for not being able to improve your situation nor am I saying that a burden might be lifted from those in your life by your absence.

In short I am not invalidating your experience in any way.

Yet suicide is a recourse to alleviate our own pain, this is what it is and by definition then it is a selfish act. And that's ok.

Ok. I am glad that you did acknowledge that in some cases (as in mine) that a burden would be lifted by my absence though.

 

[pole]

well many assume it's us solely thinking about ourselves when making such a decision. even though it ultimately is us thinking about ourselves and the fact that the act is selfish in a sense; were taught to look after ourselves, place ourselves first above anyone. i feel like alot of people just completely ignore the internal aspects of suicide. people look at it from face value, and see it as someone commiting suicide for their own selfish reasons. but when you look at it critically, with an open mind, you feel different types of emotions including the pain and suffering; you feel what the other person ultimately feels, and why they wanna commit such an act. using this critical sense in analyzing things in life, truly opening ur eyes and seeing things differently is something many fail in doing in society today, sadly.

the perception of those who believe that its a selfish act ultimately hold the perception that committing suicide doesn't stop the pain entirely in a sense; it just moves it from you to some one else, essenrially through ruining the lives of others whom care about you, essentially escaping from a world without you in it, hiding.

Guess the topic of suicide from the perspective of both sides including those suffering and wanting to die has to heard, just as much as how those who oppose the act of suicide have their voices heard all the time. only then will people truly understand each other.

 

[MeltingHeart]

well many assume it's us solely thinking about ourselves when making such a decision. even though it ultimately is us thinking about ourselves and the fact that the act is selfish in a sense; were taught to look after ourselves, place ourselves first above anyone. i feel like alot of people just completely ignore the internal aspects of suicide. people look at it from face value, and see it as someone commiting suicide for their own selfish reasons. but when you look at it critically, with an open mind, you feel different types of emotions including the pain and suffering; you feel what the other person ultimately feels, and why they wanna commit such an act. using this critical sense in analyzing things in life, truly opening ur eyes and seeing things differently is something many fail in doing in society today, sadly.

the perception of those who believe that its a selfish act ultimately hold the perception that committing suicide doesn't stop the pain entirely in a sense; it just moves it from you to some one else, essenrially through ruining the lives of others whom care about you, essentially escaping from a world without you in it, hiding.

Guess the topic of suicide from the perspective of both sides including those suffering and wanting to die has to heard, just as much as how those who oppose the act of suicide have their voices heard all the time. only then will people truly understand each other.

Yes. Also what if you have v.few people that do care about you, and the ones that do are being caused suffering by seeing you in a state of extreme mental despair day in day out- that is also alot to deal with, and are we not even allowed to entertain the idea that those that feel said person should stay alive because they would have to deal with possible aspects of guilt (if they may have played even a small part in yr emotional collapse) are they too not a little selfish for wanting you to stay alive in daily torment- so that they will never have to face/ deal with some of the realitys & the 'whys' of what led that person to take there life - especially if they were not physical ill or didnt even have a mental health issue as such (of course some would argue the very fact that you want to end yr life is a mental illness- Which I dont entirely agree on- being utterly emotional bereft of hope and a diagnosable mental disorder are two very different things in my opinion)

 

[pole]

Yes. Also what if you have v.few people that do care about you, and the ones that do are being caused suffering by seeing you in a state of extreme mental despair day in day out- that is also alot to deal with, and are we not even allowed to entertain the idea that those that feel said person should stay alive because they would have to deal with possible aspects of guilt (if they may have played even a small part in yr emotional collapse) are they too not a little selfish for wanting you to stay alive in daily torment- so that they will never have to face/ deal with some of the realitys & the 'whys' of what led that person to take there life - especially if they were not physical ill or didnt even have a mental health issue as such (of course some would argue the very fact that you want to end yr life is a mental illness- Which I dont entirely agree on- being utterly emotional bereft of hope and a diagnosable mental disorder are two very different things in my opinion)

Yeah, it goes back to like my point of context and situation. people really dont see it from face value. all you see or think about, when reading about a suicide, is "wow, another life taken. I feel so bad for their family and friends they hurt!". Usually to want to read and understand about the suffering of the person who committed suicide, their situation and the overall context of one's act takes critical thinking and open mindedness. sadly, we lack that in society today.

 

[Misanthrope]

It is complicated and people just applying the word selfish to it are reducing the scope of something very complex and multi-faceted down to an absolute caricature. More often if a person is doing that it is to simply be dismissive so they don't have to engage with that complexity.

Definition of selfish
1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.

By that definition, my suicide will be both selfish, but also have regard for others. So what does that make it? I have decided my pain outweighs that of my loved ones and I cannot stay for them. However, it is not fully self-centred either. Because I am aware prolonged life in my current state will be financially damaging to them. That some of them are putting their life on hold to care for me when one of them should be going to Uni. Seeing me in worsening sickness is also traumatic. I saw this with my own loved one who passed and makes a damn good argument for euthanasia.

Many people with mental health issues view their behaviour as damaging to their loved ones. Often it certainly can be and they have exhausted ways to stop that damage. It is why the word burden is frequently mentioned in suicide notes or prior conversations. If you are viewing yourself as a burden then you are having regard for others at that moment. If you are selfish you would not care.

However on the flip side. If my loved ones forcibly keep me alive they too are being selfish. Because when you care about another person it is not purely just altruistic care. You value that person enough and your pleasure is at stake. The need to keep them in your life to maintain your well being will be there in the mind somewhere. Loss is painful, change is painful. People want to avoid that sharp kind of change or pain. Sometimes people do believe things are fixable. Other times people who view themselves as a burden are suffering self-esteem issues and have more value than they can see. It is not black and white or simple.

Selfish is also further pointless descriptor. Because what isn't selfish? That does not come at the cost of something else? Even being told you are being selfish is also selfish. As such a statement is going to be damaging and shows little regard for your well being. It also resolves nothing. Does not improve your pain or even enquire about the source of it. It is just dismissive blame.

If you stick a burger in your gob you are selfishly endorsing the horror show of the meat industry and the slurry that winds up contaminating freshwater. Putting petrol in your car because you would rather not walk in the rain. Selfishly supporting corrupt oil barons and foreign wars.

If we stopped doing things because they were selfish and result in harm in some form we wouldn't actually do anything at all. Even owning pencils would be selfish. Don't even get me started on fiat currency or chocolate.

Being driven to suicide is also the equivalent of me setting you on fire beside a swimming pool that people happen to be playing in. The immediacy of seemingly inescapable pain will compel you to jump in that pool regardless of how disruptive it is to those people playing.

Is that instinct to escape pain at that point or selfishness?

For the most part, the suicidal consider the feelings of those they will leave behind. For many, they willingly choose to remain on fire solely not to disrupt the people playing in the pool for as long as possible. Often at great expense to themselves. That demonstrates consideration of an intense nature. So they do have regard for others. Which is the opposite of the definition of selfish above.

Even seasoned marines break to pain eventually, with techniques more focused on delaying that inevitability whilst under torture, while they hold out hope for rescue. So what chance do average people have, who are being tortured by their own minds and bodies throughout a lifetime? Who have exhausted avenues of escape and realised there is no rescue?

Maybe I am odd and simply view all of us as selfish animals pretending to be civilised. A shared delusion that always breaks when base needs or values are threatened.

Sadly until decent accessible provision is available that does not reduce everyone down to a bag of chemicals in pursuit of band-aid quick fix. That takes people on as a whole, and moves towards nurturing them into their own strength; even if it is a long road. That a takes them meaningfully away from whatever pain they are in. Then this horror show is just going to continue and create more casualties. The victims of people and societies neglect will continue to scream and get the luxury of being insulted for it. Selfish is just another dismissive insult. Used as a smokescreen not to address the core problem. Not of your selfishness, but your actual pain and the source of it.

 

[GreyMonkey]

Even if we do extend ourselves in compassion and empathy for the one who took their life, and many do, it is still a self-centred desire to escape from pain.

This doesn't take away the justification for it. I hold to the opinion that it is justified that if one is in complete anguish for such a long time that to want to escape it by any means is totally understandable.

However most who suicides can possibly ever say they were thinking of others in doing so, with the exception of the incredibly ill who are in fact creating an immense pressure and burden on their carers.

At the same time yes it is also selfish for those to want someone to stay alive so that they do not feel the pain of their loss.

I think we have to be honest and realistic though that suicide is a final desperate attempt to escape suffering when no other recourse is seen as possible. And that's fine. We are pain avoiding creatures, we want to avoid it at all costs and yet when the pain is coming from the inside without cessation and without relief then it makes total sense that it seems that ending those feelings and negative voices through death is the only way.

I don't believe it is cowardly. Yet I do think it is desperate.

For the most part, the suicidal consider the feelings of those they will leave behind. For many, they willingly choose to remain on fire solely not to disrupt the people playing in the pool for as long as possible. Often at great expense to themselves. That demonstrates consideration of an intense nature. So they do have regard for others. Which is the opposite of the definition of selfish above.

This describes my point. The suicidal person who stays alive to not disrupt others is not acting out of selfishness. Yes they are carrying the pain rather than the others.

Once this person decides escaping their pain is of greater value to them than the deferred pain to others it becomes a selfish act.

I want to take the negativity out of the word though. I agree that by nature we are pretty selfish creatures. Let's not glorify or shirk the tragedy of suicide for what it is though.

It is at its core an escape from pain and suffering. Whether that is mental or physical anguish.

The person that acts is doing so for themselves.

It is also complex though. Debilitating physical illness and the burden this places on others starts to blur the lines somewhat, and isn't really what I'm talking about. That's a different ethical can of worms and should be treated differently.

I'm keeping my comments to suicide from mental/emotional anguish in an otherwise reasonably healthy individual.

I also am not holding the view around "you haven't tried everything you can" mental suffering is a very real and difficult thing to treat. Sometimes all options are not possible. Sometimes the suffering is so great that changes necessary to cope with or even enjoy life are not possible.

Suicide is an option. Its always an option. And yet it is still one that is determinant on an individual's desire for their own freedom from suffering. Ethically we can make comparisons like the ones to choices around consumption, etc, and I don't disagree with it.

Even being suicidal myself I'm hesitant to suggest in any way that it is a noble act. I'm also not saying it's a cowardly act.

Suicide is a desperate act. And it is done for one's own seeming benefit - an escape from suffering.

 

[MeltingHeart]

It is complicated and people just applying the word selfish to it are reducing the scope of something very complex and multi-faceted down to an absolute caricature. More often if a person is doing that it is to simply be dismissive so they don't have to engage with that complexity.

Definition of selfish
1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.

By that definition, my suicide will be both selfish, but also have regard for others. So what does that make it? I have decided my pain outweighs that of my loved ones and I cannot stay for them. However, it is not fully self-centred either. Because I am aware prolonged life in my current state will be financially damaging to them. That some of them are putting their life on hold to care for me when one of them should be going to Uni. Seeing me in worsening sickness is also traumatic. I saw this with my own loved one who passed and makes a damn good argument for euthanasia.

Many people with mental health issues view their behaviour as damaging to their loved ones. Often it certainly can be and they have exhausted ways to stop that damage. It is why the word burden is frequently mentioned in suicide notes or prior conversations. If you are viewing yourself as a burden then you are having regard for others at that moment. If you are selfish you would not care.

However on the flip side. If my loved ones forcibly keep me alive they too are being selfish. Because when you care about another person it is not purely just altruistic care. You value that person enough and your pleasure is at stake. The need to keep them in your life to maintain your well being will be there in the mind somewhere. Loss is painful, change is painful. People want to avoid that sharp kind of change or pain. Sometimes people do believe things are fixable. Other times people who view themselves as a burden are suffering self-esteem issues and have more value than they can see. It is not black and white or simple.

Selfish is also further pointless descriptor. Because what isn't selfish? That does not come at the cost of something else? Even being told you are being selfish is also selfish. As such a statement is going to be damaging and shows little regard for your well being. It also resolves nothing. Does not improve your pain or even enquire about the source of it. It is just dismissive blame.

If you stick a burger in your gob you are selfishly endorsing the horror show of the meat industry and the slurry that winds up contaminating freshwater. Putting petrol in your car because you would rather not walk in the rain. Selfishly supporting corrupt oil barons and foreign wars.

If we stopped doing things because they were selfish and result in harm in some form we wouldn't actually do anything at all. Even owning pencils would be selfish. Don't even get me started on fiat currency or chocolate.

Being driven to suicide is also the equivalent of me setting you on fire beside a swimming pool that people happen to be playing in. The immediacy of seemingly inescapable pain will compel you to jump in that pool regardless of how disruptive it is to those people playing.

Is that instinct to escape pain at that point or selfishness?

For the most part, the suicidal consider the feelings of those they will leave behind. For many, they willingly choose to remain on fire solely not to disrupt the people playing in the pool for as long as possible. Often at great expense to themselves. That demonstrates consideration of an intense nature. So they do have regard for others. Which is the opposite of the definition of selfish above.

Even seasoned marines break to pain eventually, with techniques more focused on delaying that inevitability whilst under torture, while they hold out hope for rescue. So what chance do average people have, who are being tortured by their own minds and bodies throughout a lifetime? Who have exhausted avenues of escape and realised there is no rescue?

Maybe I am odd and simply view all of us as selfish animals pretending to be civilised. A shared delusion that always breaks when base needs or values are threatened.

Sadly until decent accessible provision is available that does not reduce everyone down to a bag of chemicals in pursuit of band-aid quick fix. That takes people on as a whole, and moves towards nurturing them into their own strength; even if it is a long road. That a takes them meaningfully away from whatever pain they are in. Then this horror show is just going to continue and create more casualties. The victims of people and societies neglect will continue to scream and get the luxury of being insulted for it. Selfish is just another dismissive insult. Used as a smokescreen not to address the core problem. Not of your selfishness, but your actual pain and the source of it.

Many people with mental health issues view their behaviour as damaging to their loved ones. Often it certainly can be and they have exhausted ways to stop that damage. It is why the word burden is frequently mentioned in suicide notes or prior conversations. If you are viewing yourself as a burden then you are having regard for others at that moment. If you are selfish you would not care. - love this bit-and they are not even loved ones as such as they never loved me but I still feel bad & guilty that I am such a burden to them. And I may ask (society) what is more selfish-ending ones life or creating a life without thinking that through properly & then rejecting & punishing what you created, because of yr own regret & silly mistake! That could v v easily have been avoided.

 

[passenger27]

I think it's pure ignorance for anybody to think you're selfish to commit suicide. If the person/people who think you're selfish could spend one day in a suicidal person's head they'd be singing a different tune. It's selfish on their part to try to keep dragging you through a life of misery. It means they think of you as just a possession and not a person. That's selfish to me.

If a kid has a toy and won't let their friends play with it it may seem selfish to others, but the real selfishness is not understanding why the child won't let other kids touch their toy. It depends on the circumstances. Maybe the kid doesn't want the toy to be broken. Who can blame somebody for that? Maybe the toy has a special meaning for them. If another kid grabs the toy that's selfish. They don't care what the owner of the toy thinks, even though it's the poor kids' property.

Just like your life is your property and no one else's. If they try to take away your choices they're no better than the bully who took away the poor kid's toy.

If they preach to you about the moral implications of suicide, or that it's a sin and you'll go to hell for it...well, yeah, it's in the bible that suicide is a sin, but the bible's been written and rewritten so many times who really knows what's true or not. But that part about it's a mortal sin to commit suicide was slid in there to keep so many Christian martyrs from throwing themselves to the lions. That's selfish to a religious person because again, somebody's taking your choice away. By law, at least in the US, it's not illegal to commit suicide for the most part. Some states may make a little fuss about it, but nobody's really prosecuted for it if they fail. It's also not illegal to watch somebody commit suicide, as long as you're not assisting or encouraging. If you see somebody on a ledge about to jump, you're under no obligation whatsoever to stop that person. Sure, it might seem like the right thing to do, but if you do you're no better than the mean kid who took the poor child's toy away from them. You're taking their choice away. Personally, I'd only be a bystander in a public place though. If nobody else is around they're going to swear you assisted or encouraged them.

So...anybody who says you're selfish is selfish themselves. Again, they're not thinking about you as being a person with feelings, but just a possession.

And that's my 2 cents absolutely free :) Hope it helps.

 

[Divine Trinity]

It is complicated and people just applying the word selfish to it are reducing the scope of something very complex and multi-faceted down to an absolute caricature. More often if a person is doing that it is to simply be dismissive so they don't have to engage with that complexity.

Definition of selfish
1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.

By that definition, my suicide will be both selfish, but also have regard for others. So what does that make it? I have decided my pain outweighs that of my loved ones and I cannot stay for them. However, it is not fully self-centred either. Because I am aware prolonged life in my current state will be financially damaging to them. That some of them are putting their life on hold to care for me when one of them should be going to Uni. Seeing me in worsening sickness is also traumatic. I saw this with my own loved one who passed and makes a damn good argument for euthanasia.

Many people with mental health issues view their behaviour as damaging to their loved ones. Often it certainly can be and they have exhausted ways to stop that damage. It is why the word burden is frequently mentioned in suicide notes or prior conversations. If you are viewing yourself as a burden then you are having regard for others at that moment. If you are selfish you would not care.

However on the flip side. If my loved ones forcibly keep me alive they too are being selfish. Because when you care about another person it is not purely just altruistic care. You value that person enough and your pleasure is at stake. The need to keep them in your life to maintain your well being will be there in the mind somewhere. Loss is painful, change is painful. People want to avoid that sharp kind of change or pain. Sometimes people do believe things are fixable. Other times people who view themselves as a burden are suffering self-esteem issues and have more value than they can see. It is not black and white or simple.

Selfish is also further pointless descriptor. Because what isn't selfish? That does not come at the cost of something else? Even being told you are being selfish is also selfish. As such a statement is going to be damaging and shows little regard for your well being. It also resolves nothing. Does not improve your pain or even enquire about the source of it. It is just dismissive blame.

If you stick a burger in your gob you are selfishly endorsing the horror show of the meat industry and the slurry that winds up contaminating freshwater. Putting petrol in your car because you would rather not walk in the rain. Selfishly supporting corrupt oil barons and foreign wars.

If we stopped doing things because they were selfish and result in harm in some form we wouldn't actually do anything at all. Even owning pencils would be selfish. Don't even get me started on fiat currency or chocolate.

Being driven to suicide is also the equivalent of me setting you on fire beside a swimming pool that people happen to be playing in. The immediacy of seemingly inescapable pain will compel you to jump in that pool regardless of how disruptive it is to those people playing.

Is that instinct to escape pain at that point or selfishness?

For the most part, the suicidal consider the feelings of those they will leave behind. For many, they willingly choose to remain on fire solely not to disrupt the people playing in the pool for as long as possible. Often at great expense to themselves. That demonstrates consideration of an intense nature. So they do have regard for others. Which is the opposite of the definition of selfish above.

Even seasoned marines break to pain eventually, with techniques more focused on delaying that inevitability whilst under torture, while they hold out hope for rescue. So what chance do average people have, who are being tortured by their own minds and bodies throughout a lifetime? Who have exhausted avenues of escape and realised there is no rescue?

Maybe I am odd and simply view all of us as selfish animals pretending to be civilised. A shared delusion that always breaks when base needs or values are threatened.

Sadly until decent accessible provision is available that does not reduce everyone down to a bag of chemicals in pursuit of band-aid quick fix. That takes people on as a whole, and moves towards nurturing them into their own strength; even if it is a long road. That a takes them meaningfully away from whatever pain they are in. Then this horror show is just going to continue and create more casualties. The victims of people and societies neglect will continue to scream and get the luxury of being insulted for it. Selfish is just another dismissive insult. Used as a smokescreen not to address the core problem. Not of your selfishness, but your actual pain and the source of it.

You touch on an interesting point of what I call "synchronized thought", and just as I was thinking about the "is suicide selfish" debate, you've once again already summed up my thoughts on the matter nearly word-for-word. An occassion that is both refreshing to see, yet fustrating to experience, it's a shame.

To put it shortly, this phenomenon that brings about social pathology is not of moral degeneracy, psychological inferiority, or individual hardship. It's an imcompatibility between the individual and society, this disconnect of reality brings about what can only be called a "sickness of the spirit". which if left unchecked will bring about "physical" alterations in the individual that modern medicine narrow mindedly treats.

-Sickness of the Spirit is a sort of psycho-socio dissonance that has begun to internalize within an individual. It's a pain that is distinct from, yet shares similar qualities to psychological trauma or "physical pain" but it cannot be alleviated through individual treatment.

 

[MeltingHeart]

You touch on an interesting point of what I call "synchronized thought", and just as I was thinking about the "is suicide selfish" debate, you've once again already summed up my thoughts on the matter nearly word-for-word. An occassion that is both refreshing to see, yet fustrating to experience, it's a shame.

To put it shortly, this phenomenon that brings about social pathology is not of moral degeneracy, psychological inferiority, or individual hardship. It's an imcompatibility between the individual and society, this disconnect of reality brings about what can only be called a "sickness of the spirit". which if left unchecked will bring about "physical" alterations in the individual that modern medicine narrow mindedly treats.

-Sickness of the Spirit is a sort of psycho-socio dissonance that has begun to internalize within an individual. It's a pain that is distinct from, yet shares similar qualities to psychological trauma or "physical pain" but it cannot be alleviated through individual treatment.

may I ask did you coin this term sickness of the spirit or has come from something previously? i certainly feel it is something i can attribute to myself-or more broken-my spirit feels broken, shattered-irreparably so and my soul somewhat crushed. leading me to this current situation. Even thou I had once loved life- and used to be a very positive person (as best I could be)

 

[LastFlowers]

No one in my life has had any interest in me while I've been alive, except for my mother occasionally. My own family doesn't know a thing about me or even WHO I am, and doesn't care to ask. While I ask my mother about everyone, all the damn time, and make an effort to know what they are up to and what interests them, even while I suffer from a distance.
So if they put up a fuss when I'm dead, they can literally go fuck themselves up the *** with a hockey stick.
I will not be an accoutrement to their lives if I can't even live my own.
Talk about selfish, just wanting to keep someone around just-in-case you need them for something. Like an old packet of dried dill you use for chicken salad once in a blue moon.
They'll get more use out of me when I'm dead, when they make it all about them in one way or another, converse with each other about a person-who in their minds-does not resemble the real me in the slightest.
There will also be people who are not my blood who feel it is their right to stick their nose into my business once I am dead. Wonderful.

I gain nothing from killing myself, I only lose the consciousness to experience my life of pain and suffering an absolute mind-numbing discomfort within my own skin. So how can this be selfish.
It is not like I am killing myself because of another person and leaving everyone else who loves me and deserved my presence behind. On the contrary, there is no one left on this earth who is in their right to ask me to stay (besides maybe my cats lol), for anyone to ask that of me now would be a joke..it just wouldn't make any sense with how I have been treated and tossed to the side. They made me invisible and inconsequential to their lives and their priorities, and if they make me visible again just to prevent me from ending my own suffering, then that is the definition of selfish.

 

[MeltingHeart]

No one in my life has had any interest in me while I've been alive, except for my mother occasionally. My own family doesn't know a thing about me or even WHO I am, and doesn't care to ask. While I ask my mother about everyone, all the damn time, and make an effort to know what they are up to and what interests them, even while I suffer from a distance.
So if they put up a fuss when I'm dead, they can literally go fuck themselves up the *** with a hockey stick.
I will not be an accoutrement to their lives if I can't even live my own.
Talk about selfish, just wanting to keep someone around just-in-case you need them for something. Like an old packet of dried dill you use for chicken salad once in a blue moon.
They'll get more use out of me when I'm dead, when they make it all about them in one way or another, converse with each other about a person-who in their minds-does not resemble the real me in the slightest.
There will also be people who are not my blood who feel it is their right to stick their nose into my business once I am dead. Wonderful.

i can relate, excpt no mum i see or spk to thou at all. but def know what u mean about people talkin bout me aftr death-stuff they dont really understand or know about me-thgt of that annoys me. but guess i wont be around to care.

 

[Divine Trinity]

may I ask did you coin this term sickness of the spirit or has come from something previously? i certainly feel it is something i can attribute to myself-or more broken-my spirit feels broken, shattered-irreparably so and my soul somewhat crushed. leading me to this current situation. Even thou I had once loved life- and used to be a very positive person (as best I could be)

As far as I know I just made up the term to describe what I was thinking. Though it wouldn't be surprising if I unknowingly cited someone else's work.

 

[Return2Dust]

I have a family member who committed suicide a few years ago after trying for 10+ years to get well. She was tired of the medications, doctors, treatments centers, etc. Her schizophrenia was not going to get better. I don't see her suicide as a selfish act. She experienced mental anguish for years and her reason for all of the medical intervention was to keep the family happy. Meanwhile, the family was scared of her schizophrenia and kept their distance. They treated her like it was contagious. When she committed suicide, the debate was whether or not we would be honest about how she died. They wanted her to live (at a distance) to assuage their guilt about being shitty people. She's at peace now. Come to think of it, it was the first and only thing she ever did to put herself first. Selfish though, I don't think so.

 

[Haku]

People keep telling me that I'll hurt my loved ones, and I dont have any, other than my mom, and even though I broke her spirit a little, witch I hate my self immensely for it, but even though she doesnt like what I am going to do, she understands why I have to do it, and she has told me she made peace with it. But I do feel like those that say we are selfish, are the selfish ones, they expect us to live for their sake, so they can be happy, but doesnt consider how much pain that we are going through. And I say this about the dam government as well, they think they are saving our lives by preventing our suicide, and then they get big headed thinking their fucking heroes, I say fuck em all.

 

[Return2Dust]

People keep telling me that I'll hurt my loved ones, and I dont have any, other than my mom, and even though I broke her spirit a little, witch I hate my self immensely for it, but even though she doesnt like what I am going to do, she understands why I have to do it, and she has told me she made peace with it. But I do feel like those that say we are selfish, are the selfish ones, they expect us to live for their sake, so they can be happy, but doesnt consider how much pain that we are going through. And I say this about the dam government as well, they think they are saving our lives by preventing our suicide, and then they get big headed thinking their fucking heroes, I say fuck em all.

Empathetic parents feel a sadness that they couldn't save their children, couldn't fix them or take away their pain. Selfish parents think the suicide was something the child did TO the parent.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I have a family member who committed suicide a few years ago after trying for 10+ years to get well. She was tired of the medications, doctors, treatments centers, etc. Her schizophrenia was not going to get better. I don't see her suicide as a selfish act. She experienced mental anguish for years and her reason for all of the medical intervention was to keep the family happy. Meanwhile, the family was scared of her schizophrenia and kept their distance. They treated her like it was contagious. When she committed suicide, the debate was whether or not we would be honest about how she died. They wanted her to live (at a distance) to assuage their guilt about being shitty people. She's at peace now. Come to think of it, it was the first and only thing she ever did to put herself first. Selfish though, I don't think so.

It's is sad that the meds etc didn't help & am sorry you had to experience the loss, but ultimately glad she could find peace at last. I do think that often then not wanting someone to- comes from people wanting to avoid the guilt factor - the fact they didn't want to say how it happens spks volumes & also feel that it can often be that it the only the only time that person has been "selfish" as a lot of the time it is the most selfless people that have put up with a lot in there life, been mistreated because of their very nature, never put their own needs first, don't talk about themselves, their needs and how they feel & often been taken advantage of in some ways . May she rest in peace .

 

[Reyki6667]

Telling someone it's not a solution while not giving a solution or a cure from when all the actual treatment failed, is, always had been and still is at this éra mere hypocrisy. Selfishness when that person as literally nothing to gain from it aside the cessation of there existence is what I can't call selfish.
But it is merely selfishness to want someone to keep suffering in misery, agony insanity for your own purpose for avoiding pains and problem while ultimately telling to "deal with it", so then I will reverse that fact to the people who may virtually suffer from our suicide.
Oh the irony... Isn't it?.
And personally I had already cut ties from everyone due to the severity of my illness and its incurrability.

 

[veren4h92l]

...since you can make more money out of an alive person.

Watch out where the profit goes..

[at least if there's a system involved selling drugs/repression/torture as care]

 

[Fadinglife]

It is complicated and people just applying the word selfish to it are reducing the scope of something very complex and multi-faceted down to an absolute caricature. More often if a person is doing that it is to simply be dismissive so they don't have to engage with that complexity.

Definition of selfish
1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.

By that definition, my suicide will be both selfish, but also have regard for others. So what does that make it? I have decided my pain outweighs that of my loved ones and I cannot stay for them. However, it is not fully self-centred either. Because I am aware prolonged life in my current state will be financially damaging to them. That some of them are putting their life on hold to care for me when one of them should be going to Uni. Seeing me in worsening sickness is also traumatic. I saw this with my own loved one who passed and makes a damn good argument for euthanasia.

Many people with mental health issues view their behaviour as damaging to their loved ones. Often it certainly can be and they have exhausted ways to stop that damage. It is why the word burden is frequently mentioned in suicide notes or prior conversations. If you are viewing yourself as a burden then you are having regard for others at that moment. If you are selfish you would not care.

However on the flip side. If my loved ones forcibly keep me alive they too are being selfish. Because when you care about another person it is not purely just altruistic care. You value that person enough and your pleasure is at stake. The need to keep them in your life to maintain your well being will be there in the mind somewhere. Loss is painful, change is painful. People want to avoid that sharp kind of change or pain. Sometimes people do believe things are fixable. Other times people who view themselves as a burden are suffering self-esteem issues and have more value than they can see. It is not black and white or simple.

Selfish is also further pointless descriptor. Because what isn't selfish? That does not come at the cost of something else? Even being told you are being selfish is also selfish. As such a statement is going to be damaging and shows little regard for your well being. It also resolves nothing. Does not improve your pain or even enquire about the source of it. It is just dismissive blame.

If you stick a burger in your gob you are selfishly endorsing the horror show of the meat industry and the slurry that winds up contaminating freshwater. Putting petrol in your car because you would rather not walk in the rain. Selfishly supporting corrupt oil barons and foreign wars.

If we stopped doing things because they were selfish and result in harm in some form we wouldn't actually do anything at all. Even owning pencils would be selfish. Don't even get me started on fiat currency or chocolate.

Being driven to suicide is also the equivalent of me setting you on fire beside a swimming pool that people happen to be playing in. The immediacy of seemingly inescapable pain will compel you to jump in that pool regardless of how disruptive it is to those people playing.

Is that instinct to escape pain at that point or selfishness?

For the most part, the suicidal consider the feelings of those they will leave behind. For many, they willingly choose to remain on fire solely not to disrupt the people playing in the pool for as long as possible. Often at great expense to themselves. That demonstrates consideration of an intense nature. So they do have regard for others. Which is the opposite of the definition of selfish above.

Even seasoned marines break to pain eventually, with techniques more focused on delaying that inevitability whilst under torture, while they hold out hope for rescue. So what chance do average people have, who are being tortured by their own minds and bodies throughout a lifetime? Who have exhausted avenues of escape and realised there is no rescue?

Maybe I am odd and simply view all of us as selfish animals pretending to be civilised. A shared delusion that always breaks when base needs or values are threatened.

Sadly until decent accessible provision is available that does not reduce everyone down to a bag of chemicals in pursuit of band-aid quick fix. That takes people on as a whole, and moves towards nurturing them into their own strength; even if it is a long road. That a takes them meaningfully away from whatever pain they are in. Then this horror show is just going to continue and create more casualties. The victims of people and societies neglect will continue to scream and get the luxury of being insulted for it. Selfish is just another dismissive insult. Used as a smokescreen not to address the core problem. Not of your selfishness, but your actual pain and the source of it.

I love reading your posts!