Why is the Labour party in the UK so weak?

[noname223]

There are a lot of members from UK in this forum. I think most of them are lefties. At the least the ones I think about are on the left political spectrum.

There are a lot of analyses why the left struggles to mobilize their voters. But in many countries the leftwingers increased their power. Like in the US, Germany, Norway, Italy etc.
But when I think about Labour there comes a lot disputes in my mind. I am a lefty myself and I ask myself this question.
I mean Boris Johnson had so many insane scandals and he survived everyone of it.
Why can't Labour profit from it?

In the media you could read a lot of critisicm on Jeremy Corbyn. For example about his reluctant actions during the Brexit campaign.
I am really sad that GB left the EU. But I know many wanted it so. And this is how democracy works.

Some of you mentioned smear campaingns about leftwingers in UK. I think many media outlets are quite conservative. Especially the yellow press.

Are you in favor of defunding the BBC? I am glad that the public broadcasting channels are not that controversial in my country. They finance a lot of youtube channels with high-quality content. I can't really judge about the quality of the BBC though.

 

[YourNeighbor]

There are a lot of members from UK in this forum. I think most of them are lefties. At the least the ones I think about are on the left political spectrum.

There are a lot of analyses why the left struggles to mobilize their voters. But in many countries the leftwingers increased their power. Like in the US, Germany, Norway, Italy etc.
But when I think about Labour there comes a lot disputes in my mind. I am a lefty myself and I ask myself this question.
I mean Boris Johnson had so many insane scandals and he survived everyone of it.
Why can't Labour profit from it?

In the media you could read a lot of critisicm on Jeremy Corbyn. For example about his reluctant actions during the Brexit campaign.
I am really sad that GB left the EU. But I know many wanted it so. And this is how democracy works.

Some of you mentioned smear campaingns about leftwingers in UK. I think many media outlets are quite conservative. Especially the yellow press.

Are you in favor of defunding the BBC? I am glad that the public broadcasting channels are not that controversial in my country. They finance a lot of youtube channels with high-quality content. I can't really judge about the quality of the BBC though.

Not speaking for the UK, but for the record, the left is on the ropes in the US, as is the center. There is a far-right-white-christian-nationalist party that openly opposes elections and the everyone-who-likes-democracy party, which includes the center right, the center left, and social democrats.

"Leftwingers" are not increasing their power here. They're steadily losing it despite maintaining a steady amount of popular support because the far-right party undermines the ability of elections to accurately translate voter preferences into representative government at every opportunity (e.g. gerrymandering).

 

[Chinaski]

There are a lot of questions here but to be clear Jeremy Corbyn is no longer Labour leader and hasn't been for over two years. At present he is not even a member of the Labour Party.

It's interesting that you, in Germany, seemingly receive the same media messaging as that apparently doled out by the liberal pundit class in the USA re Brexit btw. For a start, the leader of the opposition is not the government and was never in possession of a big, red STOP BREXIT button. Secondly, when he tried to appease the years of incessant shitlib bleating by accepting a second referendum policy in 2019 we were electorally hammered and this policy was the single biggest contributor. There are good-faith criticisms that can be legitimately levelled at the Corbyn leadership, Brexit isn't one - this is essentially the liberal pundit class passing responsibility for their own significant contribution to the midwifery of brexit. Trust me on this, l literally live here.

Anyway, following this defeat the architect of this policy blagged a demoralised and defeated party membership that he would continue the Corbyn policy platform but present a veneer of besuited competence. I campaigned heavily for Rebecca Long Bailey for leader, these were very long, depressing days as members repeatedly told me they prefer her as leader but she would get "smeared by the press", or was "inexperienced", or basically just female, and decided to gamble on Keir Starmer's "ten pledges". The man is a Knight of the Realm, a former chief prosecutor who opened night courts to jail unruly teens in 2010 and spoke of bigger sentences for benefit fraud, that most heinous of crimes. He is also a member of the Trilateral Commission. His campaign funding was only revealed after his election and they were all of dubious origin. He has zero politics beyond personal ambition to be PM for being PM's sake, a vain man out of his depth but with significant support from wealthy donors keen to see the fear of Corbynite social democracy crushed and forgotten. Keir has been loyal to this cause, each of the pledges he stood on have since been readily abandoned as the party seeks to be capital's B team, a party of continuity not change, hoping the establishment will grant them a term of office if they in turn do not rock any boats. The liberal centre only benefits from being seen as a lesser evil, the competence opposed to villainy, and it will be interesting to see these people demand the left fall in line and support this husk of a party led by a despicable and deeply untrustworthy toad after they spent five years trashing the only plausible alternative to our present government.

Tldr: because liberals will choose a fascist over a socialist.

 

[noname223]

Not speaking for the UK, but for the record, the left is on the ropes in the US, as is the center. There is a far-right-white-christian-nationalist party that openly opposes elections and the everyone-who-likes-democracy party, which includes the center right, the center left, and social democrats.

"Leftwingers" are not increasing their power here. They're steadily losing it despite maintaining a steady amount of popular support because the far-right party undermines the ability of elections to accurately translate voter preferences into representative government at every opportunity (e.g. gerrymandering).

I can partly agree. I had more the time in mind when Biden's ratings were better. Though it is likely due to the demographic changements that the DNC will profit from the fact that the nation is diversifying very fast. (culturally) More of the diverse people vote democratic.
Though the GOP knows that and tries to decrease the migration and uses gerrymandering to cling to their power.

However just for the record as far as I know also the DNC uses gerrymandering for their benefits. But not as much as the Republicans.

 

[Chinaski]

Also @Sister of the Moon may have a view on this.

 

[noname223]

There are a lot of questions here but to be clear Jeremy Corbyn is no longer Labour leader and hasn't been for over two years. At present he is not even a member of the Labour Party.

It's interesting that you, in Germany, seemingly receive the same media messaging as that apparently doled out by the liberal pundit class in the USA re Brexit btw. For a start, the leader of the opposition is not the government and was never in possession of a big, red STOP BREXIT button. Secondly, when he tried to appease the years of incessant shitlib bleating by accepting a second referendum policy in 2019 we were electorally hammered and this policy was the single biggest contributor. There are good-faith criticisms that can be legitimately levelled at the Corbyn leadership, Brexit isn't one - this is essentially the liberal pundit class passing responsibility for their own significant contribution to the midwifery of brexit. Trust me on this, l literally live here.

Anyway, following this defeat the architect of this policy blagged a demoralised and defeated party membership that he would continue the Corbyn policy platform but present a veneer of besuited competence. I campaigned heavily for Rebecca Long Bailey for leader, these were very long, depressing days as members repeatedly told me they prefer her as leader but she would get "smeared by the press", or was "inexperienced", or basically just female, and decided to gamble on Keir Starmer's "ten pledges". The man is a Knight of the Realm, a former chief prosecutor who opened night courts to jail unruly teens in 2010 and spoke of bigger sentences for benefit fraud, that most heinous of crimes. He is also a member of the Trilateral Commission. His campaign funding was only revealed after his election and they were all of dubious origin. He has zero politics beyond personal ambition to be PM for being PM's sake, a vain man out of his depth but with significant support from wealthy donors keen to see the fear of Corbynite social democracy crushed and forgotten. Keir has been loyal to this cause, each of the pledges he stood on have since been readily abandoned as the party seeks to be capital's B team, a party of continuity not change, hoping the establishment will grant them a term of office if they in turn do not rock any boats. The liberal centre only benefits from being seen as a lesser evil, the competence opposed to villainy, and it will be interesting to see these people demand the left fall in line and support this husk of a party led by a despicable and deeply untrustworthy toad after they spent five years trashing the only plausible alternative to our present government.

Tldr: because liberals will choose a fascist over a socialist.

I know Corbyn is not the leader anymore but the other Labour leaders are not really known in my country. I barely hear from them.

I have to agree many journalists in Germany just repeat the same stuff which they read in other countries. This counts for the US, for the UK and probably a lot more countries. I don't follow the UK closely but the news about the US. I follow alternative independent US media and the "offical" pundits. I sometimes even watch Fox News despite the fact I am ideologically very opposed to them. But I try to understand why in the US Trump could be president and might will be again in 2024. I don't like Fox News just for the record but I also don't trust CNN or MSNBC.

 

[Sleepdrifter]

They're not that unpopular, but I get what you're saying. Their problem is that they need to find better ways to reach working class people.

My town, my job, people identify strongly as working class, and they vote tory. The industries here were destroyed by the conservatives, there's not enough jobs, we have a cost of living crisis right now with falling wages - and they're all voting conservative! How is that possible?

To me there are two reasons. The first is the conservatives' anti-Labour marketing, making lefties look like a rusty outdated party which nobody likes anymore. None of that's actually true, but that message has resounded with lower/working class people. If Labour wants power, it needs to fight harder there.

But Labour keeps competing for the middle class vote. This to me is why they keep losing elections. They need to focus on ordinary workers first, on the bulk of the voting population. Once they have rebuilt confidence there, then they can target more influential elements of society.

 

[Sister of the Moon]

Also @Sister of the Moon may have a view on this.

I most certainly do.

I was a lifelong member of the Labour Party since being a teenager but have sadly had to abandon it. I believe Keir Starmer and Tony Blair are/were Tory plants and that many others in the PLP are also infiltrators.

A lot of people judge Jeremy Corbyn wrongly because of malicious smears against him. He was a threat to the status quo and therefore had to be stopped at all costs. It's awful what they did to him and the poor bloke is better off out of it. He was far too good for this shitty, idiotic cesspit of a country full of ignorant gammon.

Starmer has destroyed what Corbyn built - the biggest party in Europe, massively in credit financially, people willing to door-knock in the rain and get involved - all destroyed by Starmer's actions.

There are now millions of us who had finally had some hope for the future, now finding ourselves politically homeless. I will not support the Labour Party Starmer has destroyed.

The few good members left in the PLP such as Ian Lavery, Zarah Sultana and Richard Burgon are just embarrassing themselves by remaining aligned with a dead party. Labour will never get in again without Starmer's grovelling and sucking up to Murdoch. After all, it's the gutter press that influence how people vote. That has been proven time and time again.

Democracy officially died in the UK in 2019, and within the Labour Party too there is little democracy left.
We as a country are doomed, our lives in the hands of Tories. Honestly, this and the lack of hope for a nice future is a big part of my reasons to not want to live. I despise this country and the people who condemned us to this Tory nightmare.

 

[Chinaski]

I most certainly do.

I was a lifelong member of the Labour Party since being a teenager but have sadly had to abandon it. I believe Keir Starmer and Tony Blair are/were Tory plants and that many others in the PLP are also infiltrators.

A lot of people judge Jeremy Corbyn wrongly because of malicious smears against him. He was a threat to the status quo and therefore had to be stopped at all costs. It's awful what they did to him and the poor bloke is better off out of it. He was far too good for this shitty, idiotic cesspit of a country full of ignorant gammon.

Starmer has destroyed what Corbyn built - the biggest party in Europe, massively in credit financially, people willing to door-knock in the rain and get involved - all destroyed by Starmer's actions.

There are now millions of us who had finally had some hope for the future, now finding ourselves politically homeless. I will not support the Labour Party Starmer has destroyed.

The few good members left in the PLP such as Ian Lavery, Zarah Sultana and Richard Burgon are just embarrassing themselves by remaining aligned with a dead party. Labour will never get in again without Starmer's grovelling and sucking up to Murdoch. After all, it's the gutter press that influence how people vote. That has been proven time and time again.

Democracy officially died in the UK in 2019, and within the Labour Party too there is little democracy left.
We as a country are doomed, our lives in the hands of Tories. Honestly, this and the lack of hope for a nice future is a big part of my reasons to not want to live. I despise this country and the people who condemned us to this Tory nightmare.

Would disagree (only) with the third paragraph in that for Burgon, Sultana, Lavery, Trickett, McDonnell, Abbott et al the party is the vehicle which keeps them visible. To retreat from it would be to retreat from the public arena entirely and l certainly don't see the benefit from that happening other than fleeting catharsis. What l do see for the old guard is their relationship with the party reverting back to the previous one of uncomfortable bedfellows, where the party is capital's first line of defence rather than a reformist's first line of attack. Otherwise l agree with the sentiment - there is no material difference between the leadership of Sir Keir Starmer QC and that of an actual MI5 agent planted by GCHQ.

Truth is the Labour Party has never been good, it's always just been a vehicle - as Tony Benn would say, "you do get some socialists in the Labour Party, just like you do get some christians in the Church of England". I think Dennis Skinner once remarked that he'd never known there to be more than twenty true socialist MPs at any given time. It's frankly astounding imo, for all the dickhead Liberal takes that seem keen to consign the period to history and turn the defeat of 2019 into a generational one, that in 2017 we took to the streets en masses to circumnavigate all the horrible media bullshit which had us twenty points behind in the polls and won the biggest swing to Labour since 1945 and the biggest party vote share since 1997 within six weeks. We fucking terrified them, and for all the froth in the aftermath I'll never not be proud of that.

 

[Lost Magic]

Well I voted for Labour a good few times (even in Scotland). Now, I think SNP is the better party and they are even developing a minimum income scheme to keep everybody away from abject poverty. The conservatives are the party of the rich and privileged. They don't give a fuck about anybody else. Labour was ruined by Tony Blair. Jeremy Corbyn tried to bring it back to its former glory but I believe his fence sitting on Brexit killed that potential. it's a shame because he is a man of principle and truly cares for people who struggle in life. I have a similar feeling towards the American equivalent, Bernie Sanders. Good people who want real change never seem to get in power. Only arseholes like Boris Johnson and Trump seem to attain it. I think the powers to be have a lot to do with it and misguided voters. It's pretty sad actually.

 

[Chinaski]

Well I voted for Labour a good few times (even in Scotland). Now, I think SNP is the better party and they are even developing a minimum income scheme to keep everybody away from abject poverty. The conservatives are the party of the rich and privileged. They don't give a fuck about anybody else. Labour was ruined by Tony Blair. Jeremy Corbyn tried to bring it back to its former glory but I believe his fence sitting on Brexit killed that potential. it's a shame because he is a man of principle and truly cares for people who struggle in life. I have a similar feeling towards the American equivalent, Bernie Sanders. Good people who want real change never seem to get in power. Only arseholes like Boris Johnson and Trump seem to attain it. I think the powers to be have a lot to do with it and misguided voters. It's pretty sad actually.

Jeremy Corbyn didn't sit on the fence re brexit, he respected the result of a referendum which had technically been voted on three times already and as soon on as the JEREMBY CROBYIN WHY WON'T U STOP BREXIT dickheads had their way the project fucking crumbled. The arch-remainers, your Mandelsons, your Campbells, your fucking "lndependent Group of Change UK" breakaways, gave much less of a, shit about brexit itself than they did about hammering the Corbyn project. They also had the power to significantly mitigate the impact of brexit in a commons vote and did not.

There are criticisms you can make of Corbyn which would be acknowledged as legit even if l disagreed with them. This idea of him being somehow responsible for brexit is totally fucking ridiculous. Brexit was inevitable, turning against the only possibility for progressive change you will see in your lifetime because he didn't have the power to overturn a public vote on a relationship with a trading bloc is absurd imo.

 

[Sleepdrifter]

I was a lifelong member of the Labour Party since being a teenager but have sadly had to abandon it. I believe Keir Starmer and Tony Blair are/were Tory plants and that many others in the PLP are also infiltrators.

For real? Keir is a goof, Tony Blair went a little megalomaniac but tory spies? Corbyn won a horrible contest, so fair play. He still left his position failing to generate confidence in voters, partly due to how brutal he had to be in order to secure leadership. Conservative infiltrators - whatever next!

 

[Red Scare]

Not speaking for the UK, but for the record, the left is on the ropes in the US, as is the center. There is a far-right-white-christian-nationalist party that openly opposes elections and the everyone-who-likes-democracy party, which includes the center right, the center left, and social democrats.

"Leftwingers" are not increasing their power here. They're steadily losing it despite maintaining a steady amount of popular support because the far-right party undermines the ability of elections to accurately translate voter preferences into representative government at every opportunity (e.g. gerrymandering).

I can partly agree. I had more the time in mind when Biden's ratings were better. Though it is likely due to the demographic changements that the DNC will profit from the fact that the nation is diversifying very fast. (culturally) More of the diverse people vote democratic.
Though the GOP knows that and tries to decrease the migration and uses gerrymandering to cling to their power.

However just for the record as far as I know also the DNC uses gerrymandering for their benefits. But not as much as the Republican
There is no left in the USA. The USA is so conservative, it has two right wing parties. One called the far-right, and the other is just barely right of center.

The USA has no left, they are so conservative they have two right wing parties. One called far right, and the other is just barely right of center.

Democrats are not left leaning at all, they don't even support universal healthcare. Both parties are beholden to their corporate oligarch donors.

 

[Chinaski]

For real? Keir is a goof, Tony Blair went a little megalomaniac but tory spies? Corbyn won a horrible contest, so fair play. He still left his position failing to generate confidence in voters, partly due to how brutal he had to be in order to secure leadership. Conservative infiltrators - whatever next!

Yeah it happens, two Labour MPs have since received Tory peerages in return for actively campaigning against Corbyn in 2019, a third was given another peerage to serve as an "antisemitism tsar" as reward for constantly conflating socialism with antisemitism. All three are ridiculous figures, one if whom was under investigation for sexual impropriety at the time.

Several Labour MPs defected to join forces with Tory MPs to set up a NEW LIBERAL CENTRIST PARTY OF MODERATES AND SENSIBLES AGAINST BREXIT party and, as with everything involved with the arch-remain bullshit, they proved massively popular with the dipshit liberal commentariat whilst literally tanking like fuck in the polls. One such MP, former Labour minister Gavin Shuker, was asked if he'd any regrets, given he'd lost his seat as a result. He replied "l can look back on my career in politics and say l stopped Jeremy Corbyn, and l can be proud of the part l played in that". These people may not be Tory "plants" per se, but with cunts this unscrupulous already willing to do the tories wet-work from within there's ultimately little difference.

 

[Sleepdrifter]

Yeah it happens, two Labour MPs have since received Tory peerages in return for actively campaigning against Corbyn in 2019, a third was given another peerage to serve as an "antisemitism tsar" as reward for constantly conflating socialism with antisemitism. All three are ridiculous figures, one if whom was under investigation for sexual impropriety at the time.

Several Labour MPs defected to join forces with Tory MPs to set up a NEW LIBERAL CENTRIST PARTY OF MODERATES AND SENSIBLES AGAINST BREXIT party and, as with everything involved with the arch-remain bullshit, they proved massively popular with the dipshit liberal commentariat whilst literally tanking like fuck in the polls. One such MP, former Labour minister Gavin Shuker, was asked if he'd any regrets, given he'd lost his seat as a result. He replied "l can look back on my career in politics and say l stopped Jeremy Corbyn, and l can be proud of the part l played in that". These people may not be Tory "plants" per se, but with cunts this unscrupulous already willing to do the tories wet-work from within there's ultimately little difference.

Hmm. Not to say the tories could ever be trusted to look after an ant farm let alone the country, but a few ditherers over the years doesn't amount to much. Goes the other way too, look at Wakefield.

If anything this feeds into what I explained earlier. The 2016 election was too hot. It was so bitter that it would have been less dirty if all the candidates were thrown into a pit and fought a bareknuckle fight to the death. Before then Labour really hadn't been pulling its weight and was acting like it would just slide back into power like the tides come in.

If you are pro-Labour or if anyone here is, you've got to understand: that fight actually scared people. For all their sins, the cons do it on the downlow. Like the libs and the greens. If things are really too rough, they just throw up an incompetent like May. These are voters you are dealing with. How are you appealing to middle-class families if your leaders are squaring out in a hateful public bloodbath. Is that too much to handle or are you ready to win an election for once?

 

[Chinaski]

Wakeford is not "the other way" tbf in that he's won a seat essentially by accident, as did all the pro-brexit seats who went tory once the JEREMY STOP BREXIT bullshit had been stamped a over our manifesto, and has jumped ship knowing he'll be out of a job in the next election if he doesn't. Crossing the floor is rare but like Shaun Woodward previously, this was for absolutely personal reasons rather than political ones. He's a Tory MP who sits on the Labour benches because it benefits him personally, and essentially he's not the only one.

 

[YourNeighbor]

However just for the record as far as I know also the DNC uses gerrymandering for their benefits. But not as much as the Republicans.

The difference in magnitude is so large that this is not really a fair statement. And setting aside what the party organizations do, many democratic-leaning states have implemented measures to eliminate/restrict gerrymandering.

They're not that unpopular, but I get what you're saying. Their problem is that they need to find better ways to reach working class people.

My town, my job, people identify strongly as working class, and they vote tory. The industries here were destroyed by the conservatives, there's not enough jobs, we have a cost of living crisis right now with falling wages - and they're all voting conservative! How is that possible?

To me there are two reasons. The first is the conservatives' anti-Labour marketing, making lefties look like a rusty outdated party which nobody likes anymore. None of that's actually true, but that message has resounded with lower/working class people. If Labour wants power, it needs to fight harder there.

But Labour keeps competing for the middle class vote. This to me is why they keep losing elections. They need to focus on ordinary workers first, on the bulk of the voting population. Once they have rebuilt confidence there, then they can target more influential elements of society.

You point out an interesting phenomenon that is playing out in the States as well. From what I see, exploiting societal cleavages along identity lines (LGBTQ rights, immigration, racial/ethnic identities, pro-/anti-science which is used to attack "elites") in the US is sadly a very successful tactic for the far-right, leading many white working class voters to vote against their economic interests because of manipulation on a deeper emotional level. With Brexit, it seemed like that was a big thing; I wonder if it's being used more broadly as well in the UK?

Tldr: because liberals will choose a fascist over a socialist.

That's interesting. In the US, there were actually quite a lot of "Bernie bros" who voted Trump in 2016 instead of Hillary, because they desparately wanted to "shake things up." I understand of course that "liberal" means different things in the UK/Europe and the US, but the dogmatism, ideological extremism, and fervor of the fringes tends to be much more compatible and interchangeable than evidence-based approaches to policymaking.

 

[Chinaski]

I too heard of the Bernie Bros, this was very much through the prism of a very pro-Hillary UK media mind you, however l was left absolutely certain by the end of it that Trump was essentially brought into power by left-wing misogynists.

Fwiw the left always hold their nose. I'd have voted for Hillary as would the vast majority of Bernie voters despite the fact her politics are fucking rancid, I'd have voted for Macron twice when up against Le Pen, as will most Melenchon supporters. What's making me reconsider this lesser-evil voting in future is the fact that for the first time in my lifetime it was the left asking the centre to hold their noses they did quite the opposite and did their best to stifle the opposition to Boris Johnson. Having seen what the Democrats did to squeeze out the Bernie campaign l could honestly sympathise with those who felt uneasy with voting for a senile paedo too. It's weird how this chat about the left being an extreme comes from those who consider themselves the sensible pragmatic grown ups when they're the quickest to throw the toys out of the fucking pram.

 

[YourNeighbor]

I too heard of the Bernie Bros, this was very much through the prism of a very pro-Hillary UK media mind you, however l was left absolutely certain by the end of it that Trump was essentially brought into power by left-wing misogynists.

Huh. Well, your media must have had an interesting and uninformed take on politics here. Trump won first of all because our method of choosing presidents (electoral college) is strongly biased in favor of the right, to the extent that votes from small rural states are effectively weighted several times that of votes from cosmopolitan urbanized areas. Hillary wasn't trounced by voters, she won far more than Trump. Trump won for many reasons, but he did make inroads with white uneducated voters who were enchanted with his nativist rhetoric. The Bernie bros voting for Trump may have tipped the scales, but so could many demographics given how narrow the margins were in just a few states that gave Trump the win.

 

[Lost Magic]

Jeremy Corbyn didn't sit on the fence re brexit, he respected the result of a referendum which had technically been voted on three times already and as soon on as the JEREMBY CROBYIN WHY WON'T U STOP BREXIT dickheads had their way the project fucking crumbled. The arch-remainers, your Mandelsons, your Campbells, your fucking "lndependent Group of Change UK" breakaways, gave much less of a, shit about brexit itself than they did about hammering the Corbyn project. They also had the power to significantly mitigate the impact of brexit in a commons vote and did not.

There are criticisms you can make of Corbyn which would be acknowledged as legit even if l disagreed with them. This idea of him being somehow responsible for brexit is totally fucking ridiculous. Brexit was inevitable, turning against the only possibility for progressive change you will see in your lifetime because he didn't have the power to overturn a public vote on a relationship with a trading bloc is absurd imo.

Actually, Corbyn wanted the public to vote again on the Brexit matter. He also seemed to flip his stance on the EU and held some contradictory views. But the Tories, the media and even many members of his own party tried to discredit him over many other false allegations. He had no chance. He did galvanise a lot of young people though. It's just a shame to how he was treated overall. I proudly voted for him btw

 

[Chinaski]

Huh. Well, your media must have had an interesting and uninformed take on politics here. Trump won first of all because our method of choosing presidents (electoral college) is strongly biased in favor of the right, to the extent that votes from small rural states are effectively weighted several times that of votes from cosmopolitan urbanized areas. Hillary wasn't trounced by voters, she won far more than Trump. Trump won for many reasons, but he did make inroads with white uneducated voters who were enchanted with his nativist rhetoric. The Bernie bros voting for Trump may have tipped the scales, but so could many demographics given how narrow the margins were in just a few states that gave Trump the win.

Tbf that was kind of my reading on it too, the point being l think the whole BERNIE BRO TRUMP VOTER thing was significantly inflated in terms of impact but did serve its main purpose, which was to delegitimise the Sanders campaign as a whole. Over here his first campaign coincided with the emergence of Corbyn and our media were very careful with how Bernie was discussed, l got to hear more of the establishment attack lines than l should have done given I'm not eligible to vote in the US election and l think there was a reason for that.

 

[YourNeighbor]

Tbf that was kind of my reading on it too, the point being l think the whole BERNIE BRO TRUMP VOTER thing was significantly inflated in terms of impact but did serve its main purpose, which was to delegitimise the Sanders campaign as a whole. Over here his first campaign coincided with the emergence of Corbyn and our media were very careful with how Bernie was discussed, l got to hear more of the establishment attack lines than l should have done given I'm not eligible to vote in the US election and l think there was a reason for that.

To be clear, it's not at all a myth that many Bernie voters switched to Trump in the general election in 2016. Probably much more than enough to swing the results in Trump's favor. The thing is though, because narrow margins in just a few states would have changed the outcome, one could point to many demographic segments and conclude, "if just slightly more of these people voted for Hillary, she would have won."

Here's How Many Bernie Sanders Supporters Ultimately Voted For Trump

Yes, Bernie Sanders supporters who voted for President Trump could have cost Hillary Clinton the election. But then, about the same share of Republican primary voters defected to Clinton.

www.npr.org

 

[Chinaski]

To be clear, it's not at all a myth that many Bernie voters switched to Trump in the general election in 2016. Probably much more than enough to swing the results in Trump's favor. The thing is though, because narrow margins in just a few states would have changed the outcome, one could point to many demographic segments and conclude, "if just slightly more of these people voted for Hillary, she would have won."

Here's How Many Bernie Sanders Supporters Ultimately Voted For Trump

Yes, Bernie Sanders supporters who voted for President Trump could have cost Hillary Clinton the election. But then, about the same share of Republican primary voters defected to Clinton.

www.npr.org

Yeah I've seen a lot of this horseshoe theory crap in various pieces, l don't doubt it's accurate that some Bernie supporters followed that trajectory but still think it's a bit odd that enough noise was made about the miniscule US left somehow having a significant hand in Hillary losing in 2016. I also remember Susan Sarandon being treated as some kind of centrist hate figure for outlining her very sound reasons for not voting for Hillary Clinton. As ever the Sensible Grown Up Centrists utterly fail to look inward and they've a habit of petulantly punching leftwards and punishing this perceived disloyalty when the reality is these same people ferociously attack and stifle any progressive alternative which they too may be expected to lend support.

Actually, Corbyn wanted the public to vote again on the Brexit matter. He also seemed to flip his stance on the EU and held some contradictory views. But the Tories, the media and even many members of his own party tried to discredit him over many other false allegations. He had no chance. He did galvanise a lot of young people though. It's just a shame to how he was treated overall. I proudly voted for him btw

The first part here is incorrect imo, the left wanted to maintain the position of the 2017 election, to respect the result but negotiate a good deal, which was successful. We organised at conference to actually keep it off the policy debates for that reason as it was known the anti-Corbyn types were using brexit as a, wedge issue and the white noise around brexit was stifling the platform upon which corbyn was elected leader in the first place, it became a huge centrist tantrum in full media blare. By 2019 a few dubiously funded AstroTurf groups had been set up to counter this and the ensuing brexit policy was decided at conference, which is sovereign. The final policy which made the manifesto was decided by the then brexit secretary Keir Starmer who already had an eye on leadership, and the policy went down like a bucket of cold sick. It literally killed us.

The media, have had Corbyn down as a secret brexiteer for years, condemning him for not using his privilege as leader of the opposition for not simply snapping his fingers and overturning a democratic referendum, and yet as soon as his manifesto offered a further vote it could now be presented as indecisive. I will concede that the left kicked the brexit can down the road frequently and ultimately ran out of road, however the reality is the people who demanded he STOP BREXIT did so in order to prevent him forming a government, and in so doing delivered us the brexit we have now.

 

[YourNeighbor]

Yeah I've seen a lot of this horseshoe theory crap in various pieces,

Not sure why you think it's "crap." It makes sense that people who are prone to messianic complexes about their ideology being the one true path to utopia would have a lot more in common with each other than others, and may be more prone to undermining democratic norms under an ends justify the means approach. Research backs up this view.

Left-wing authoritarians share key psychological traits with far right, Emory study finds | Emory University | Atlanta GA

People with extreme political views that favor authoritarianism — whether they are on the far left or the far right — have surprisingly similar behaviors and psychological characteristics, finds a new study by Emory psychologists.

news.emory.edu

l don't doubt it's accurate that some Bernie supporters followed that trajectory but still think it's a bit odd that enough noise was made about the miniscule US left somehow having a significant hand in Hillary losing in 2016. I also remember Susan Sarandon being treated as some kind of centrist hate figure for outlining her very sound reasons for not voting for Hillary Clinton.

I don't follow Susan Sarandon's political views, but if she spoke out against Hillary in the general election, there is nothing reasonable or justifiable about that. Trump's election may ultimately be the catalyst that destroys American democracy, and not voting for Hillary in the general was almost a vote for Trump.

As ever the Sensible Grown Up Centrists utterly fail to look inward and they've a habit of petulantly punching leftwards and punishing this perceived disloyalty when the reality is these same people ferociously attack and stifle any progressive alternative which they too may be expected to lend support.

Nah, don't see it. At least not here. Bernie was positively covered in the media and discussed by major Dem candidates in 2020 (and 2016), which is quite dramatic given how far off the mainstream he has been at times throughout his career. Any criticism against Bernie (no should is above it, by the way) was nothing compared to the rage directed at anyone in Republican circles who spoke out against its leadership.

It may just be the case that Corbyn was a terrible candidate who wasn't able to inspire the general British electorate, and who said many, many absurd things in the past even if he didn't incorporate each such craziness in his platform.

 

[Chinaski]

What actually makes sense is that people were just not inspired by more of the same bland centrism which had absolutely failed to deliver on its own terms, l don't necessarily regard liberals gaslighting and pathologising of the electorate whenever they're given a slightly blooded nose to be a sound analysis and this contempt for the electorate is a significant contributor to the low esteem these corporate shills and hawks-with-table-manners are held in.

I get you don't like Corbyn personally but you're remarking upon failing to inspire an electorate which is to totally memory hole 2017, which is the closest a democratic socialist has come to power in the UK and the biggest swing to Labour in over seventy years. Your analysis is purely through the NATO/Brexit lens and has little regard for the political issues which propelled him into leadership in the first place, this is is to be expected from your political quarter but it is as lazily inaccurate as it is unwelcome.

 

[YourNeighbor]

I get you don't like Corbyn personally but you're remarking upon failing to inspire an electorate which is to totally memory hole 2017, which is the closest a democratic socialist has come to power in the UK and the biggest swing to Labour in over seventy years. Your analysis is purely through the NATO/Brexit lens and has little regard for the political issues which propelled him into leadership in the first place, this is is to be expected from your political quarter but it is as lazily inaccurate as it is unwelcome.

You point the finger at everyone (media, pragmatists, etc.) but have yet to mention one thing Corbyn could have done to do better and attract more voters. Perhaps promising a proletarian revolution and abolishing the Crown?

By the way, Brexit was the top issue for British voters in 2017 and 2019, by far. In 2017, Labour received a lot of votes from people who wanted to reconsider the referendum, and because Tory leadership stumbled the UK into a geopolitical disaster.

Keep scapegoating everyone else and pointing to some conspiracy to keep out ya boy. Victimhood is not a great strategy. Likening centrists (I assume that's what you mean by "liberals," though that's still unclear) to fascists is also not a great way to convince liberals they can embrace your wing of the Labour party.

Which issues will decide the general election? | YouGov

As campaigning begins in earnest YouGov unveils what the British public consider the most important issues facing the country, and how this compares to the 2017 general election

yougov.co.uk

From an international perspective and in hindsight, it is a great thing Corbyn lost. One shudders to think what he or Trump would be doing with NATO in light of Russia's invasion of Ukraine had either of them won. Either would sacrifice long term security for short-term electoral gain.

Would Corbyn be sending weapons to Ukraine right now?

 

[Sister of the Moon]

For real? Keir is a goof, Tony Blair went a little megalomaniac but tory spies? Corbyn won a horrible contest, so fair play. He still left his position failing to generate confidence in voters, partly due to how brutal he had to be in order to secure leadership. Conservative infiltrators - whatever next!

I didn't say Tory spies did I? I said plants. It's a fact that people within the party deliberately worked to lose the last two elections. Why would Labour members want to do that if not to enable Tories. Starmer and Blair haven't got a socialist bone in their bodies and have no place in a party that was founded for the workers. What did Thatcher consider her greatest achievement? Tony Blair and New Labour.

A party led by a Knight of the Realm represents exactly who? What are the policies? Why ditch the 2019 manifesto after promising to uphold it? Incidentally that was the best manifesto in the history of manifestoes the world over in my opinion. And the Great British public shat all over it.
Reap what ye sow, Tory voters, bootlickers and scabs. Enjoy your energy bills and food banks and crime.

 

[Chinaski]

You point the finger at everyone (media, pragmatists, etc.) but have yet to mention one thing Corbyn could have done to do better and attract more voters. Perhaps promising a proletarian revolution and abolishing the Crown?

By the way, Brexit was the top issue for British voters in 2017 and 2019, by far. In 2017, Labour received a lot of votes from people who wanted to reconsider the referendum, and because Tory leadership stumbled the UK into a geopolitical disaster.

Keep scapegoating everyone else and pointing to some conspiracy to keep out ya boy. Victimhood is not a great strategy. Likening centrists (I assume that's what you mean by "liberals," though that's still unclear) to fascists is also not a great way to convince liberals they can embrace your wing of the Labour party.

Which issues will decide the general election? | YouGov

As campaigning begins in earnest YouGov unveils what the British public consider the most important issues facing the country, and how this compares to the 2017 general election

yougov.co.uk

From an international perspective and in hindsight, it is a great thing Corbyn lost. One shudders to think what he or Trump would be doing with NATO in light of Russia's invasion of Ukraine had either of them won. Either would sacrifice long term security for short-term electoral gain.

Would Corbyn be sending weapons to Ukraine right now?

Why are you still giving me incorrect info on this in a patronising tone which suggests l wasn't literally there? In 2017 only one of the three major parties promised to curtail brexit, Labour pledged to respect the referendum. Two parties committed to delivering *a* Brexit won over 80% of the vote. The single significant change between the 2017 and 2019 manifestos was our policy shift on Brexit and l can assure you it was the least popular policy in there by a significant distance. I put a lot in to both election campaigns, l spoke to voters all day every day throughout, mostly in a traditionally Labour voting, pro Brexit constituency which followed a nationwide trend in both elections. I was fucking there.

You have no idea what you're talking about here and that's fair enough, but accompanying this objectively inaccurate take on the UK left, which you've clearly borrowed from the fag packet analysis of the pundit class, with this weird patronising tone, as if you've the barest notion of what you're talking about is seriously absurd.