Discussion Why is Nitrogen/Argon/Helium considered "similar" to Oxygen, in terms of CTB purposes?

[how2toGetout]

Why is Nitrogen considered "similar" to Oxygen, in terms of CTB purposes? And for that matter, why other gases like Helium & Argon?

What chemical property of Nitrogen makes Nitrogen be able to "fake" the feeling of breathing Oxygen into our lung?

So, what's so "inert" about Nitrogen, and other "noble" gases like Helium & Argon (which are also considered "inert")?

So, according to Wikipedia, "noble" gases are elements in the periodic table that are in "group 18".
And these "noble" gases (such as Helium, Neon, Argon, etc.) are "inert" in a way that their properties include "odorless, colorless, monatomic gases with very low chemical reactivity". Because, according to Wikipedia, "An inert gas is a gas that does not undergo chemical reactions under a set of given conditions."

So, what makes a Nitrogen an "INERT" gas? even though Nitrogen is not in "group 18" and therefore is not a "NOBLE" gas.. What makes Nitrogen a gas that "does not undergo chemical reactions" in general?

And, what about this "inertness" with Nitrogen makes Nitrogen very "similar" to Oxygen in a way that our lung doesn't notice the difference between Oxygen and Nitrogen, until Oxygen is run out and lead to CTB?

And, also why do "noble gases" like Argon/Helium be able to do the same thing that Nitrogen does?

It's just a bit weird to get my head wrapped around the idea of Nitrogen and Argon be able to "imitate" or "fake" or "fool the lung" in a way that the lung (or possibly red blood cells) don't notice the difference between Oxygen and any of these "inert" gases (i.e. Nitrogen or Argon or Helium). Can any one help me understand it conceptually what any of these "inert gases" are doing in a way that fools the lung (or red blood cells)?

In other words, what property of "inert gases" make breathing them in "not painful"? (as opposed to Carbon Dioxide)

 

[Bagger]

This property is not being CO2 and low reactivity. Carbon dioxide induce Hypercapnia

 

[Soul]

Thanks for all those great questions, @how2toGetout - I'd love to comprehend that myself. My cartoon-version understanding is that the inert gases fit into the same niche in our cells as oxygen goes, so our bodies don't notice the lack of oxygen. CO2 on the other hand makes the mistake of triggering our hypercapnic alarm, which is what causes us to feel we're suffocating and panic.

We're discussing this as well in a nearby thread about baking soda and citric acid. Come join us!

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/plastic-bag-citric-acid-and-baking-soda.21428/

 

[how2toGetout]

This property is not being CO2 and low reactivity. Carbon dioxide induce Hypercapnia

Yes, i am aware that CO2 build-up induces Hypercapnia, but what's the scientific reason that N2 (along with other "inert gases") doesn't induce Hypercapnia, whereas CO2 does? Is there a property of CO2 that induces Hypercapnic alarm?

My cartoon-version understanding is that the inert gases fit into the same niche in our cells as oxygen goes, so our bodies don't notice the lack of oxygen.

I like your explanation. That explanation is the most down-to-earth explanation i've ever received so far. Makes more sense now. But i just wonder, as a trivia, what properties of inert gases (in comparison to Oxygen) make inert gases fit into the same "niche" in our cells as Oxygen does. Maybe i'm thinking too deeply about this, but i just wonder what exactly triggers the feeling of Hypercapnic alarm in our body in a cellular level..


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EDIT: So far, i've found this article (https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/ency...tenttypeid=167&contentid=carbon_dioxide_blood) which says that Carbon Dioxide is a "waste product in the form of gas when you burn food for energy" in your body system. That's the only explanation about why CO2 is "bad" (or causes our body an alarm to instinctively give an urge to get rid of them) to stay in our body and causing hypercapnic alarm.. But this still doesn't really explain the biological mechanism of why our body "hates" CO2 and instinctively causes an urge to get rid of CO2, when they are building up.. Could it be that it's a ratio issue?

If we're breathing 100% oxygen and if it doesn't give us Hypercapnic alarm, why is it the case that we get Hypercanic alarm when we get a CO2 build-up?

 

[Neville1]

The inert gases cause hypoxia because they displace oxygen and without oxygen the body will not produce CO2 and thus no hypercapnic response. Humans are engineered to recognize high CO2 levels but not the lack of oxygen. In oxygen rich environment, the body will use what it needs and expel the rest.

Inert gas asphyxiation link is below.

Inert gas asphyxiation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Edit: With total lack of oxygen, unconscious is in a minute and death within minutes. So there's hardly time to feel its effects.

 

[how2toGetout]

Humans are engineered to recognize high CO2 levels but not the lack of oxygen.

Ohh.. ok.. i kinda understand it now..... Our bodies are engineered in a way to recognize high CO2 levels but they are not capable of recognizing that there's no oxygen coming in.. pretty strange, but makes sense in a way..

 

[Neville1]

@how2toGetout Wikipedia explains that some animals (unlike humans), rats, minks and some burrowers, are sensitive to low-O2 environment.

 

[how2toGetout]

What's also strange is that there is no alarm response to Nitrogen level increasing in our body system.. as opposed to CO2..

 

[Lookingforabus]

Basically, a lack of oxygen, or an inability to bind that oxygen to hemoglobin in the blood is what causes death. In cases of CO poisoning, what happens is that the carbon monoxide binds to hemoglobin more strongly than oxygen, so the oxygen can't bind to hemoglobin and enter the bloodstream, your cells can't use CO, and you die from a lack of oxygen in the blood.

In the case of inert gas asphyxiation, what happens is you remove all the oxygen from the air you're breathing, and breath inert gas instead. You could actually use any gas, but:

1) A lot of gases interact with your physiology in unpleasant or potentially problematic ways. For example, you could breath a pure alcohol environment and asphyxiate, which sounds pleasnt, getting one last drunk on, but you'd vomit, and that could cause problems keeping the bag on. You could use a pure chlorine environment, but you'd get painful chemical burns.

2) Many gases smell awful. You could use any sulphur containing gas, but an overwhelming smell of rotten eggs is not what I want for my last moment.

3) Many gases are expensive, hard to obtain, or cause other problems. You could use uranium hexafluoride, but good luck paying for that, getting it, or explaining to the authorizes that you're just trying to die, and aren't creating weapons grade uranium. You could use a highly reactive fluorine gas, but it would "melt" the bag... and maybe your face.

There are reported suicides involving an exit bag and propane or natural gas, for example. It doesn't have to be an inert gas, it can be anything that keeps oxygen out of your blood stream.

Inert gases are preferred because they are widly available, relatively cheap, odorless and don't interact with our physiology - they're chemically non reactive, which applies to nitrogen - N2, as it exists in its gaseous state is a strong chemical bond that's hard to break, and nothing in our physiology does. It is an inert gas, as it exists in normal conditions. The "group 18" on the periodic table you mention is actually refer to as the "Noble gases" group. They're all very chemically inert as well, but they're not the definition of an inert gas, just a group of chemical elements that are inert gases.

As explained further up this thread, the out of breath feeling is actually a response to the acidity of your blood, caused by excess carbon dioxide (which creates carbonic acid in water solution, which is mildly acidic). That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

What's also strange is that there is no alarm response to Nitrogen level increasing in our body system.. as opposed to CO2..

Because the nitrogen level in your body doesn't increase when breathing N2. It's inert, and N2 makes up almost 80% of the air in our atmosphere anyway.

 

[how2toGetout]

Basically, a lack of oxygen, or an inability to bind that oxygen to hemoglobin in the blood is what causes death. In cases of CO poisoning, what happens is that the carbon monoxide binds to hemoglobin more strongly than oxygen, so the oxygen can't bind to hemoglobin and enter the bloodstream, your cells can't use CO, and you die from a lack of oxygen in the blood.

In the case of inert gas asphyxiation, what happens is you remove all the oxygen from the air you're breathing, and breath inert gas instead. You could actually use any gas, but:

1) A lot of gases interact with your physiology in unpleasant or potentially problematic ways. For example, you could breath a pure alcohol environment and asphyxiate, which sounds pleasnt, getting one last drunk on, but you'd vomit, and that could cause problems keeping the bag on. You could use a pure chlorine environment, but you'd get painful chemical burns.

2) Many gases smell awful. You could use any sulphur containing gas, but an overwhelming smell of rotten eggs is not what I want for my last moment.

3) Many gases are expensive, hard to obtain, or cause other problems. You could use uranium hexafluoride, but good luck paying for that, getting it, or explaining to the authorizes that you're just trying to die, and aren't creating weapons grade uranium. You could use a highly reactive fluorine gas, but it would "melt" the bag... and maybe your face.

There are reported suicides involving an exit bag and propane or natural gas, for example. It doesn't have to be an inert gas, it can be anything that keeps oxygen out of your blood stream.

Inert gases are preferred because they are widly available, relatively cheap, odorless and don't interact with our physiology - they're chemically non reactive, which applies to nitrogen - N2, as it exists in its gaseous state is a strong chemical bond that's hard to break, and nothing in our physiology does. It is an inert gas, as it exists in normal conditions. The "group 18" on the periodic table you mention is actually refer to as the "Noble gases" group. They're all very chemically inert as well, but they're not the definition of an inert gas, just a group of chemical elements that are inert gases.

As explained further up this thread, the out of breath feeling is actually a response to the acidity of your blood, caused by excess carbon dioxide (which creates carbonic acid in water solution, which is mildly acidic). That's all, nothing more, nothing less.


Because the nitrogen level in your body doesn't increase when breathing N2. It's inert, and N2 makes up almost 80% of the air in our atmosphere anyway.

Lookingforabus, Thank you for a thorough explanation!!

I finally received an explanation that i wasn't aware of about the Hypercapnic alarm:

As explained further up this thread, the out of breath feeling is actually a response to the acidity of your blood, caused by excess carbon dioxide (which creates carbonic acid in water solution, which is mildly acidic).

Thank you. I can kinda get a feeling why Hypercapnic alarm is very unpleasant feeling. I'm guessing carbonic acid triggers the alarm..

 

[Lookingforabus]

Thank you. I can kinda get a feeling why Hypercapnic alarm is very unpleasant feeling. I'm guessing carbonic acid triggers the alarm..

Any blood acidity, actually - there are medical conditions that can increase blood acidity without using carbonic acid, and yup, those trigger that out of breath feeling as well. (The body has other responses to CO2 buildup, some of which are CO2-specific.)

But basically, yes. CO2 in water creates carbonic acid. More than a normal level in your bloodstream increases the acidity as a result of higher carbonic acid levels, which makes you feel out of breath.

But in the most common case of breathing, yes, it's too much CO2 in the blood, creating carbonic acid, triggering there hypercapnic response.