Discussion Why don't (we) pro-choicers put up more resistance and stand our ground against our enemies?

[TAW122]

Disclaimer: I am not encouraging violence or any illegal acts, and this is just an curious question to better understand the reasoning of fellow pro-choicers.

With that said, this is a question that I pondered on when looking back at some of my older threads, namely about self defense of oneself's right to self-deliverance and also, using pro-lifers' tactics against them. In other words, why not make it more difficult and/or at least more costly for pro-lifers anti-choicers who wish to impose their will and project their views onto us?

I understand that the common response is that most pro-choicers just want to exercise their right of the act of self deliverance without interference and peacefully; not necessarily getting back at others. However, I believe there must be a greater reasoning that explains why we don't do more and allow the majority (pro-lifers and anti-choicers) to push us around, persecute and bully us, and to get away with mistreatment while earning the praises of society, government, as well as their peers. We are already at a serious disadvantage not only in numbers, resources (societally and legally), and many other objective (and subjective) metric with respect to our cause and values, so I just don't understand why do go to great lengths to pander to and appease the pro-life majority. If anything, it's similar to going into an boxing match with all the disadvantages (or with only one advantage while all other disadvantages and shortcomings) then deciding to handicap ourselves further by not only adhering to the same rules as others (who are more albe-bodied and have more resources, advantages than us) and then trying to 'win' in more adverse conditions. This is something I don't understand.

For example, if one of us decided that we want to CTB, but for some reason, we failed and got caught, or even caught before we attempted, we get locked up against our will, even for a temporary hold (by government and pro-lifers who intervened). Then we are treated like children, not trusted with anything, our credibility ruined and sometimes worse than an suspected criminal (guilty until proven innocent - or in this case, irrational until proven rational, but because they declared us irrational, we further lose the ability to defend ourselves due to our credibility and testimony being nullified (due to irrationality), thus being in a more dire predicament). In such a scenario, I don't see why we don't try to raise hell (within the confines of the legal system), either by making it difficult for others to mistreat us, stiffing the (unjust) hospital/medical bill afterwards, maximizing patient advocacy claims, and other ways to make it more troublesome, more costly for pro-lifers to treat us poorly.

What are your thoughts on this and why don't we do "more"? I Again, I want to reiterate that I do not endorse nor encourage violence or any illegal actions. This is just a curious inquiry that I have.

 

[Ghost2211]

Society will never care what we say no matter how loud or well said it is. They predetermine we have a mental illness if we don't want to fight tooth and claw to be alive.

Humans have an inherent desire to control one another.

 

[Super_Cat]

The best you can do is push for more drug legalization in general. This helps increase availability of some materials and removes the stigma.

 

[GoneGoneGone]

I think because we're coming at this from the wrong angle. When anti-gluten-advocates (no offense) pretty much made everything gluten-free, they were a minority, but they had some legit health-related reason.

We don't have a clear angle: some of us have PTSD, some of us have unbearable health issues, some of us have depression, some of us have financial issues. The moment we attempt is the moment we lose all credibility, we are labeled in horrendous ways and our wishes are dismissed. I mean, so what's our angle?

Personally I think something drastic has to happen to elicit change, but even those ctbs on fb live are just ignored.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

We can't stand our ground because the topic is discussed on uneven terrain. Anything that we talk about is shot down before there's even a chance to defend our side of the story. It is like trying to argue with a manipulator.

You've answered your own question with the first post: when you said that a suicidal person is no longer trusted should they get caught.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

In my experience, putting up a resistance can sometimes just bolster the oppositions' efforts further. If, for example, every member of this site came together and became more outwardly proactive in displaying pro-choice messages to try to reform the public, I could see people getting upset and demanding legislation take it down and then we'd have practically nothing to even work with. Sometimes a silent resistance is better than nothing even if it prevents there ever being a full on revolution. Plus, as someone who believes in peoples' choice, I think that that's just always going to be their opinion. I wouldn't want to have to put anyone else through the harsh conditions that led me to believe this. Some prolife people genuinely believe they're acting out of empathy and concern and at rare times they are, even if to us they seem malicious for thinking differently. I feel as long as we have access to our methods and this community, we can at least hold onto that.

tl;dr people don't back down easily. the chances of turning the majority of opinion into pro-choice are about as good as all of us turning prolife.

 

[TAW122]

Society will never care what we say no matter how loud or well said it is. They predetermine we have a mental illness if we don't want to fight tooth and claw to be alive.

Humans have an inherent desire to control one another.

That is very true of human nature, even at the start of human history.

I think because we're coming at this from the wrong angle. When anti-gluten-advocates (no offense) pretty much made everything gluten-free, they were a minority, but they had some legit health-related reason.

We don't have a clear angle: some of us have PTSD, some of us have unbearable health issues, some of us have depression, some of us have financial issues. The moment we attempt is the moment we lose all credibility, we are labeled in horrendous ways and our wishes are dismissed. I mean, so what's our angle?

Personally I think something drastic has to happen to elicit change, but even those ctbs on fb live are just ignored.

Good point, I suppose our angle, would be the angle of pro-choice, rational self determination of oneself's own fate (whether it is to continue living or dying). I think there are two types of suicide, the impulsive ones and the mindful ones. The former is usually those who attempt to CTB because of a sudden change in life and are oftenly done without careful consideration or planning, kind of impromptu. The latter is done with careful planning, long term deliberation and consideration of many factors, gathering of methods and preparations, and then at a planned moment, attempting to CTB.

So in short, I think if we are able to center our advocacy at freedom of choice and the right to self determination, then we may be able to make some progress in advancing our cause, even if by a little. As for drastic things, I suppose if society gets bad enough that even a large portion of people become affected very negatively, then they might start to question the status quo and/or start looking at the causes (maybe even addressing them).

In my experience, putting up a resistance can sometimes just bolster the oppositions' efforts further. If, for example, every member of this site came together and became more outwardly proactive in displaying pro-choice messages to try to reform the public, I could see people getting upset and demanding legislation take it down and then we'd have practically nothing to even work with. Sometimes a silent resistance is better than nothing even if it prevents there ever being a full on revolution. Plus, as someone who believes in peoples' choice, I think that that's just always going to be their opinion. I wouldn't want to have to put anyone else through the harsh conditions that led me to believe this. Some prolife people genuinely believe they're acting out of empathy and concern and at rare times they are, even if to us they seem malicious for thinking differently. I feel as long as we have access to our methods and this community, we can at least hold onto that.

tl;dr people don't back down easily. the chances of turning the majority of opinion into pro-choice are about as good as all of us turning prolife.

That is very well a risk for any movement and even more so for us. Yes, while it is true that people don't back down easily, if we can somehow make headway (in the long term) where even involuntary treatment and force is abolished, it would go a long way. In modern times and present day, it stands as that if someone is a danger to oneself or others, then said person can be held against his/her will for a temporary hold to be evaluated on whether he/she would be formally committed to a mental institution, psych ward, etc. Even with a legal change, it would go a long way such that when involuntary commitment and false detainment are abolished, it would certainly give relief to people who would have otherwise felt even more suicidal due to being forced to live, both figuratively and literally.

 

[Superdeterminist]

I think a lot about how we might change perspectives enough to make the right to die something that is actually respected in the world. It feels inevitable, but change seems so slow and I don't know how to most effectively fight for the cause. It is something I urgently want to see discussed more and introduced in my lifetime. I feel that talking about it in public spaces and organising demonstrations would be the most effective but I don't know. It's hard to be motivated to try anything because there's so much resistance and because I don't know how effective any attempt would really be.

 

[TAW122]

I think a lot about how we might change perspectives enough to make the right to die something that is actually respected in the world. It feels inevitable, but change seems so slow and I don't know how to most effectively fight for the cause. It is something I urgently want to see discussed more and introduced in my lifetime. I feel that talking about it in public spaces and organising demonstrations would be the most effective but I don't know. It's hard to be motivated to try anything because there's so much resistance and because I don't know how effective any attempt would really be.

I share the same sentiment as you do with respect on the right to die and it becoming more normalized, if not, at least accepted as a valid choice.