Why doesn't the absurdity of living override the social condemnation of suicide in many people?

[thetwilightzone]

Life is hard, both pro-choice and anti-suicide people agree with that. It's also unfair.

Yet for some reason I personally don't understand why saying "you'll cause more pain to your family/friends" or "it's weak/easy/cowards way out" actually stops some people so easily. Perhaps they fit into society better because I cannot understand how any guilt could keep me here.

Could it not be like a crime of passion where no matter how much someone doesn't want to kill, their emotions give way and override their frontal cortex and they lash out in an aggrevated assault, murder? I suppose there's the "will to live" but I doubt that can be so strong.

 

[throwaway123]

I don't understand other people and I probably never will. I can only try to understand myself and take care of myself. I want to die and I will make it happen. That's all that matters to me.

People don't want to understand. You can try to explain it to them as much as you want, they'll never want to actually face the truth. That's just how I see it.

 

[raskolnikov]

People are coward and feel themselves secure and protected in society. Majority of people are conservator despite of what they proclaim themselves to be. They don't support true freedom for people but only seek their personal "freedom", which in our society equals to money. I really despise human society.

 

[bigj75]

In my opinion its more so religion that
stops some people so easily. People believe suicide is a sin and you will automatically go to hell because of it. That scares the absolute shit out of people who really have a good reason to commit suicide but are so scared of going to hell. Christians are the biggest hypocrites.

 

[GeorgeEastman]

I personally don't understand why saying "you'll cause more pain to your family/friends" or "it's weak/easy/cowards way out" actually stops some people so easily.

Because they don't want it bad enough.

I've sat and thought about that. Staying around for others. Living for others. It's all bull. The reality is I'm still just too big of a chicken shit to stick a gun in my mouth and blow my head off. I think we're all selfish and once we really want to die badly enough, we'll get it done.

 

[okyeah]

I remember when I was little I didn't understand why anyone would want to kill themselves. A lot of people in the world have this same juvenile way of thinking that they will never outgrow. In reality, committing suicide is a pretty difficult and hard/brave thing to do. You almost gotta work for it like a goal.

 

[MachineGunDani]

We didn't have a choice coming into the world so we should have a choice to leave.

 

[Ben]

Life is hard, both pro-choice and anti-suicide people agree with that. It's also unfair.

Yet for some reason I personally don't understand why saying "you'll cause more pain to your family/friends" or "it's weak/easy/cowards way out" actually stops some people so easily. Perhaps they fit into society better because I cannot understand how any guilt could keep me here.

Could it not be like a crime of passion where no matter how much someone doesn't want to kill, their emotions give way and override their frontal cortex and they lash out in an aggrevated assault, murder? I suppose there's the "will to live" but I doubt that can be so strong.

They are just such obvious points to people who are pro-life, they haven't bothered practicing a deeper argument like we have. They usually don't have to defend why life is great, most of us have had to explain why death is great plenty of times.

It's hard to have common ground with somebody who desperately wants you to live, when you desperately want to die. It's a yin lang thing. They will never understand your justifications because they conflict with your own.

Like, I couldn't convert a vegan to become a carnivore by telling them how delicious stake is.

 

[bigj75]

Because they don't want it bad enough.

I've sat and thought about that. Staying around for others. Living for others. It's all bull. The reality is I'm still just too big of a chicken shit to stick a gun in my mouth and blow my head off. I think we're all selfish and once we really want to die badly enough, we'll get it done.

Personally I don't think it's about being chicken shit or not wanting it bad enough. It's about the risk of success that method has that makes people stall so long on suicide until they can't take it anymore. I can guarantee you almost everyone on here if they had a glass full of a drink next to their bed that would 100% guarantee kill them quick they would take it. But a damn gun to the mouth isn't not a guaranteed success in killing you and if you survive it you are stuck here on earth fucked for the rest of your life more than you already are now. I'm scared as fuck to use a gun for that reason. But if I had a method I knew was 100% right now I would do it.

 

[Maravillosa]

In my opinion its more so religion that
stops some people so easily. People believe suicide is a sin and you will automatically go to hell because of it. That scares the absolute shit out of people who really have a good reason to commit suicide but are so scared of going to hell. Christians are the biggest hypocrites.

Although I think and hope that God would be merciful to people who ctb and allow them into Heaven, there is just enough fear left in me of ending up in Hell if I were to ctb. (Also, I want to outlive my bedridden elderly mother and successfully publish at least one novel before I die.) And as for Christians being the biggest hypocrites -- well, I, a practicing Catholic, plead guilty to hypocrisy! As the saying goes, hypocrisy is the price that vice pays to virtue. It is almost impossible to avoid hypocrisy if one strives to live by high values.

 

[sky7]

People believe suicide is a sin and you will automatically go to hell because of it. That scares the absolute shit out of people who really have a good reason to commit suicide but are so scared of going to hell.

And this is why I'm still here.

 

[checking out]

The vast majority of people have never considered the utter pointlessness of their, and everyone else's, existence. One could argue it's a first-world problem (please excuse the cliché); people who struggle to eke out a living to support their family in developing countries perhaps do not have time to consider if there is any point to the struggle. I'm a trained ecologist, and all life is programmed to grow, pass on its genes, and die. We are no different. So if there is no meaning to anything other than this pre-programmed biological path, what's the point? There isn't any. Most people are too afraid to confront this logical, unescapable reality. They fill their lives with something to give it meaning. Find a purpose, a 'reason to get up in the morning'. Career, family, religion, public service etc. A way to escape the inescapable reality that their life is, ultimately, pointless. Those that criticise us, the people that contemplate ending their own lives, have no right, no right at all, to dictate what we do and how we should think. I believe that those of us who have the guts to face up to life's pointlessness are the brave ones. We're not hiding behind something and ignoring the reality. The one thing that an individual should have utter control over - as long as they do no harm to others - is the thing that is absolutely and inherently their own - their life.

 

[hunter_lewis]

The vast majority of people have never considered the utter pointlessness of their, and everyone else's, existence. One could argue it's a first-world problem (please excuse the cliché); people who struggle to eke out a living to support their family in developing countries perhaps do not have time to consider if there is any point to the struggle. I'm a trained ecologist, and all life is programmed to grow, pass on its genes, and die. We are no different. So if there is no meaning to anything other than this pre-programmed biological path, what's the point? There isn't any. Most people are too afraid to confront this logical, unescapable reality. They fill their lives with something to give it meaning. Find a purpose, a 'reason to get up in the morning'. Career, family, religion, public service etc. A way to escape the inescapable reality that their life is, ultimately, pointless. Those that criticise us, the people that contemplate ending their own lives, have no right, no right at all, to dictate what we do and how we should think. I believe that those of us who have the guts to face up to life's pointlessness are the brave ones. We're not hiding behind something and ignoring the reality. The one thing that an individual should have utter control over - as long as they do no harm to others - is the thing that is absolutely and inherently their own - their life.

life has as much meaning as you give to it. It is up to you to give your life meaning, if you want to

 

[Libido Torpedo]

Life is hard, both pro-choice and anti-suicide people agree with that. It's also unfair

Fairness is a social construct fam

 

[checking out]

I agree - my point exactly

 

[checking out]

Sorry my point above refers to hunter_lewis' post

 

[bigj75]

Although I think and hope that God would be merciful to people who ctb and allow them into Heaven, there is just enough fear left in me of ending up in Hell if I were to ctb. (Also, I want to outlive my bedridden elderly mother and successfully publish at least one novel before I die.) And as for Christians being the biggest hypocrites -- well, I, a practicing Catholic, plead guilty to hypocrisy! As the saying goes, hypocrisy is the price that vice pays to virtue. It is almost impossible to avoid hypocrisy if one strives to live by high values.

In my opinion there is no god and if there is he left us in charge of how people turn outI person

Fairness is a social construct fam

Can you derive morals from science. I believe so. Even scientifically fairness is actually promoted. So I don't think it's a social construct.

 

[Sayo]

Tbh, I'm not sure many people believe that life is absurd enough to be meaningfully optional. Many people who see that it is pointless also see a person's ability to define and follow meaning for themselves as almost obligatory. I don't know if most people actually experience enough pleasure that they believe living to be enjoyable (coffee vs. suicide) -- can't relate, anhedonic and awful mood swings. But if they do or convincing yourself that you do is a normal human feature then I guess they don't see life like that -- and many people find it hard to value purposeless things, so they develop mechanisms to avoid acknowledging this purposeless absurdity.

Also people don't have remotely reasonable frameworks for dealing with fairness.

I don't believe you can truly derive morals from science as science is inherently driven by the conditions in which it's created and interpreted. Such as what science is done, how it is done, how to apply it, the conditions used to evaluate it - consider game theory, psychology, or even number theory. Science and mathematics also have plenty problems where there is no obvious rational solution. Science provides evidence for decision making.

 

[worldexploder]

Great point! First of all, suicide is no cowderly act. Never understood that line of logic. Secondly, our moms imposed life on us - so it's only fair that we get to decide what to do next. Wether or not the child or the parent dies first, someone's gonna be mourning a loss ether way. Death follows life. It may sound harsh, but if people don't want to lose loved ones, they shouldn't create them to be lost in the first place.

 

[NoOneKnows]

Great point! First of all, suicide is no cowderly act. Never understood that line of logic. Secondly, our moms imposed life on us - so it's only fair that we get to decide what to do next. Wether or not the child or the parent dies first, someone's gonna be mourning a loss ether way. Death follows life. It may sound harsh, but if people don't want to lose loved ones, they shouldn't create them to be lost in the first place.

Totally agree with you,

 

[raskolnikov]

Approaching death is approaching joy:


(hope you can put english subs)


Emanuele Severino is, I dare to say, the most important contemporary Italian philosopher, he is an atheist and pro-choicer:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuele_Severino

 

[checking out]

I don't find many things pleasurable anymore, however the intelligent, thoughtful and insightful discussions on this forum are a welcome exception

 

[bigj75]

I don't find many things pleasurable anymore, however the intelligent, thoughtful and insightful discussions on this forum are a welcome exception

I completely agree. When I first got drastic depression i started using addictions for pleasure to help cope with the depression. Sex, alcohol, expensive things, etc. I'm at that point where even all that has lost its pleasure. But I do love coming home from work and talking online to people I can relate to and have in depth conversations with.

 

[checking out]

At this stage I find I cannot speak frankly to most of my friends about how I am feeling. They will either freak out or just not understand. I find this stifling, and so disappointing that I cannot have genuine conversations about life and death with my closest friends and family. (I must say however that I am fortunate to have one friend with whom I can drop the façade and be completely honest.) It is such a relief to be able to supplement my (infrequent) conversations with her with reading the stories on this forum, and conversing with people who, as bigj75 states, I can relate to.

 

[Joannf]

Life is hard, both pro-choice and anti-suicide people agree with that. It's also unfair.

Yet for some reason I personally don't understand why saying "you'll cause more pain to your family/friends" or "it's weak/easy/cowards way out" actually stops some people so easily. Perhaps they fit into society better because I cannot understand how any guilt could keep me here.

Could it not be like a crime of passion where no matter how much someone doesn't want to kill, their emotions give way and override their frontal cortex and they lash out in an aggrevated assault, murder? I suppose there's the "will to live" but I doubt that can be so strong.

They are afraid of life's "meaninglessness" (which is of course a misunderstanding). The religious ones will of be afraid that God may frown, so they speak in His name (Angst), while the non-believers will be afraid of having to make a similar decision, they have also despaired of life here and there, and having someone you know off themselves is a shock nobody needs. THAT is a rather selfish reason they will hardly admit, because it's like saying you should be afraid of what they are afraid of. And they are correct that yourd eath will cause sadness in others - humans are herd animals and compare the sadness you feel to the MORE sadness of, say a dozen family members. Thimple.
As to the meaning of life, you're here to procreate in the name of your genome. However as a part of evolution, you can decide that you're a weak and useless individual, or sim[ply a very ill one whose genetics should better fade out. Evolution will register this, nod and see the genes of your enemies as the new normal.

 

[TimeToDie]

Life is hard, both pro-choice and anti-suicide people agree with that.

I think the difference is that the anti-suicide crowd sees the glass as half-full rather than half-empty. They put a positive spin on everything, which is probably delusional though that delusion is necessary if you want to be happy or at least not totally miserable. For the first 30 years of my life I never had any thoughts of suicide and I could never have truly understood suicide. The pro-life crowd has never faced serious thoughts of suicide and as a result they can't possibly understand why anyone would want to end it. It's difficult, if not impossible, to understand that which is so far removed from your own experience.

They might think they understand as they too had suicidal thoughts such as a woman who told me how one night she walked outside in winter with the vague notion that she wanted to freeze to death. She went inside real fast upon finding that cold is really uncomfortable. I don't think she understands us at all, since that's not even close to a serious attempt to end life.

Yet for some reason I personally don't understand why saying "you'll cause more pain to your family/friends" or "it's weak/easy/cowards way out" actually stops some people so easily. Perhaps they fit into society better because I cannot understand how any guilt could keep me here.

Most people here are very sensitive to how they will impact others. For example, I have never seen anyone who wants to try suicide by cop. The vast majority don't want suicide by train as that would traumatize the driver. And others don't want to traumatize their kids or significant other and they want to find a new home for their pet first.

 

[ZixivaldYrxes]

For me it's because I know I'm partially responsible for other peoples' feelings. I think life is absurd, especially as it is now, but I can't make the people around me think that (I've tried), and even though I think grief can be based on false premises and if the shoe were on the other foot I would be more relieved for me than mournful, I can't decide for someone else whether or not their feelings are valid (which I know is ironic). They will be affected by those feelings as if they were truth regardless of whether or not they are, and it's those effects that I'm trying to avoid. It's like my cat. I have to avoid doing certain things around her because she thinks I mean to do something other than what I actually mean to do half the time. I don't want to reinforce those perceptions by having her run away and feel the fear and then associate that fear (over nothing) with what just (didn't) happen.

It's really frustrating but I don't think there's much I can do.

I remember when I was little I didn't understand why anyone would want to kill themselves. A lot of people in the world have this same juvenile way of thinking that they will never outgrow. In reality, committing suicide is a pretty difficult and hard/brave thing to do. You almost gotta work for it like a goal.

This is too true. I know people like this. The kinds who cover their eyes when they see staged violence on TV in spite of being twice your age. There's something that rings true about living like that, I think, as a way of maintaining sanity, but it depends on how much of a blind eye you're turning to your own behavior as well as those around you (a lot of people who are like this also eat meat, for instance, so in spite of being supposedly anti-violence they're pro-violent slaughter of animals. but they literally don't think about it that way, because they see things as they're labeled rather than as they are). I can understand not wanting to get your hands dirty but as such a person you have to admit to yourself whether or not they are in actuality, first.

 

[Maravillosa]

This is too true. I know people like this. The kinds who cover their eyes when they see staged violence on TV in spite of being twice your age. There's something that rings true about living like that, I think, as a way of maintaining sanity, but it depends on how much of a blind eye you're turning to your own behavior as well as those around you (a lot of people who are like this also eat meat, for instance, so in spite of being supposedly anti-violence they're pro-violent slaughter of animals. but they literally don't think about it that way, because they see things as they're labeled rather than as they are). I can understand not wanting to get your hands dirty but as such a person you have to admit to yourself whether or not they are in actuality, first.

I am 52 years old and still cover my eyes when I see staged violence on TV or in a movie (I also eat meat, but not on Fridays or during Lent.) However, I like to watch videos of people hanging themselves -- after all, death by hanging does not (usually) involve blood or gore, and I think that I am getting pointers for my eventual ctb someday.

 

[Vegrau]

How is dying an easy way out? We have to throw away everything we have. Everything we like. Everything we love. How is that easy? No matter how much we hate living. There's always these things that still mean something to us. That's why still dragging things on and on all this time.

 

[ZixivaldYrxes]

I am 52 years old and still cover my eyes when I see staged violence on TV or in a movie (I also eat meat, but not on Fridays or during Lent.) However, I like to watch videos of people hanging themselves -- after all, death by hanging does not (usually) involve blood or gore, and I think that I am getting pointers for my eventual ctb someday.

Sorry I don't mean to be offensive and judgmental, that was actually low-key targeted towards some people who I'm sometimes frustrated with who are nowhere remotely near this site anyway (and who probably don't deserve that frustration, to be fair). I can go off on ignorant tirades like that but I really only mean it to blow off steam. Staged violence can be a lot more gratuitous and dramatic than real violence, but real violence is way more bone-chilling to me exactly because of its lack of drama. Like, it happens and then someone is suffering inside their head but they're not delivering lines or making big gestures that communicate that suffering. It's just there and there's no reason for it, and it happens so quickly too whereas in fiction it's drawn out.

Also I think it's funny that you're coincidentally exactly twice my age lol weird stuff.