Venting Why do non-suicidal people feel so good about imprisoning suicidal people?

[disappearingquietly]

I don't care for that excuse of "oh but, suicide is so permanent!! mental illness drives people to make decisions they usually wouldn't!!". We have autonomy. I can understand wanting to help someone, but imprisoning someone for simply wanting to end their pain permanently is just so strange to me. Just leave people alone.

 

[FuneralCry]

I understand, personally I'd never wish to suffer in this existence, all I wish for is to permanently cease existing, I really wish there's acceptance towards the choice to die, it'd be such a comfort and relief for me to simply be able to die in peace, existence truly has only ever caused me pain and it terrifies me how this could continue for so long.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

If someone is sound of mind, can eloquently put together their reasons for why they wish to CTB, are in clear constant distress for years with no hope of recovery after years of trying, and have been constantly suicidal for years, then preventing suicide is nothing more but an act of cruelty.

I draw the line if that person is a minor, or otherwise an adult with only a few or no attempts at genuine recovery, or if the suicidal ideation is relatively recent and is due to reasons that can be fixed easily.

 

[almost dead mota]

Yeah it feels like... you know we condone feelings of suicide as completely inappropriate but since we don't reeeeeaaallly want to help let's just put you here so we don't have to deal with it. Let's give you pills and make you talk with "pros" to "deal" with those emotions instead of actually bonding with you and give you resources to really connect with ppl and make your life have sense in this society. Just make a journal dude and practice gratefulness xd. Completely bunkers. That's just how I feel about tho I can definitely see some individuals gaining benefit from this. Some people just need pills, some need a reset and some are actually f'd. Don't blame health institutions tho, even if you tried to make an awesome one it's like trying to clean dust with a broom's shadow. Don't blame society either, I actually believe most people (90 to 98% or at leeeast 50 something) are idiots and if they weren't... yeah probably things would be different, but you know what is the biggest conspiracy theory? That there is no conspiracy. The world just is and humans are not prepared for any of this. Specially when the brightest minds make the awesome technologies and the rest are the ones who get to use it. So I don't feel like they feel good about it unless they are psychopaths, they are just not ready for you.

 

[Ramsay Fiction]

I am pro-choice. In everything. If someone has experienced enough of this life to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they don't want to continue experiencing it then I respect their decision and wish them the best finding peace walking down that road with no outlet. I think one of the most aggravating things I experience is people in my life wanting me to talk to them about how I feel and I get this generic "it gets better" lecture. I know they can't understand without being in this position, but it's like they're not even trying to listen.

The consequence of missing the bus and being caught shouldn't be so frightening.

 

[Beyond_Repair]

I think one of the most aggravating things I experience is people in my life wanting me to talk to them about how I feel and I get this generic "it gets better" lecture. I know they can't understand without being in this position, but it's like they're not even trying to listen.

I relate to this so much. It's really exasperating. Like I can dump all my nihilistic feelings and worldviews on someone and they can tell me why I'm wrong, because they and some other people don't feel the same way. You can't really understand something until you've experienced it yourself, and for many people, if they can't understand it, it must be somehow wrong

 

[Tesha]

I think of lot of professionals that have the regulatory powers to detain others don't necessarily feel good about 'imprisoning others'. I know quite a few feel shit about it, but feel they are doing the right thing for their patient at that time. I know some are scared that if they don't do it, they could get blamed or feel shit for not intervening and something happens.

The fact is, there are some people that do need detaining for their own well-being, but if someone is an adult and of sound mind, then it should be their own choice. But how do you know that if you haven't been able to assess someone to begin with?

You also get some arseholes in the profession that do abuse their position. They're just arseholes.

 

[Satan]

I don't care for that excuse of "oh but, suicide is so permanent!! mental illness drives people to make decisions they usually wouldn't!!". We have autonomy. I can understand wanting to help someone, but imprisoning someone for simply wanting to end their pain permanently is just so strange to me. Just leave people alone.

They feel morally superior nothing else

 

[Moniker]

Honestly, I think your average person just doesn't give a shit about people's suffering to care about the feelings of the suicidal. I'm sure that a sizable chunk of people on this forum have talked to others about how they felt and got told the usual BS of "practice mindfulness" or "try therapy" or "life gets better". If you push back on that, most folks are happy to just shrug and give up on you. If you can't be helped, the ward will force you to say you're better.

However, as for professionals, the ones doing the actual detaining, I think there's a special sort of malice one has to have to perscribe pills and profit off of the unending time with your patients.

 

[Ironborn]

"It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem."
I hate this with a passion, what do you consider temporary?
I am 37, I have had suicidal ideation for 10 years, 1 serious attempt to ctb.
I have had anxiety and ocd for as long as I can remember.
Only reason I lasted that long is because I drowned my brain in alcohol to numb myself. Now I'm sober I am more sure than ever I don't want to be here anymore
How the fuck is any of that "temporary"?

 

[nihilistic_dragon]

These people are literally killing themselves slowly while judging the ones who want to do it fast. They're just hypocrites.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

You also get some arseholes in the profession that do abuse their position. They're just arseholes.

No, they are not arseholes. They are monsters. I have grown more liberal in my application of that word. Anyone who participates in causing someone trauma without any regret or contrition or just feeling freaking bad is a monster.

Failing that the other explanation is that they are clueless about the true nature of their profession, in which case how much utility could there possibly be in it?

 

[avalonisburning]

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the sincere good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies and stiffnecks. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be sated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

- C.S. Lewis

 

[Boundless]

It is as Satan mentioned in this thread already, but I want to add some other components to it. Humans indeed feel morally superior (particularly "learned" individuals, such as doctors and psychologists). This superiority stems from the extremely deeply rooted belief of the Hippocratic oath. The Hippocratic oath states that "primum non nocere", or translated to the commitment to do no harm. Not only future "doctors" (students) are indoctrinated by this belief. But this belief stretches to psychology and psychiatry too. In America you have the "ethical principes of psychologists and code of conduct" which also states "first do no harm to others". Every person who goes through the route of wanting to acclaim a position of health related subject, will be met with this oath in some form. This is the popular moral opinion of health and "caring" for others.

Now we move on to the meaning of harm. Harm as defined by the dictionary means the following: "to hurt someone or damage something". This to me is extremely ironic, since most of the medical establishment is profit driven with very little care for damage done. Most people don't seem to understand that the healthcare world and the medical establishment is a business. Not some charity who does everything out of the goodness of their hearts and souls. The medical establishment and modern healthcare doesn't have a heart and a soul. You are a number, you are their customer.

Most people are too ignorant about it. Even the doctors and psychologists who studied for years (translated: they have been indoctrinated by the same beliefs, making them absolute slaves to this system) are, frequently consciously, ignorant to it. Dentists get paid to sell you expensive products you don't need because they get a cut. Doctors get paid to perform operations or perform certain actions, they want you to take as much medicine, undergo as much treatment, stay a permanent customer forever. Psychologists and psychiatrists want you to talk to them for as long as possible, you are their customer. Psychiatrists are financially incentivized to provide certain medications. The list goes on and on, as you might already understand.

Most people think they are morally superior and trust the medical establishment completely and blindly. Most people will apply their perspective on your experiences. Death is scary, some people might argue the scariest thing. Suicide? Someone willing to meet death? Most people cannot understand this. What a person can't understand, he fears. This fear shows itself in wanting to control the individual (or generally; "thing") which causes this fear. Most of this all works unconsciously, but once you realize this process happens in most people in situations of fear, you will nearly always understand their motives.

Another thing is that the system wants you to remain alive. You are tax paying cattle. If too many people "drop out" of the system, it falls apart. No more cattle? Your farm falls apart. Can't control your cattle? Your farm falls apart. You are the cattle in this modern system. A cow produces less when he is constantly stressed and worn out. Farmers adhere to a fine line between extreme exploitation and comfort of the animal. Our society is structured in the exact same way. Everyone inside of this system is cattle to the farmers above them. Researching this rabbit hole, looking at who the biggest farmers are, is banned, extremely censored, illegal and highly dangerous. I wonder why…


Anyway, I can rant about this for hundreds of pages.

———
TLDR: Why do non-suicidal people feel so good about imprisoning suicidal people?

- "Professionals" are indoctrinated by our societal beliefs and incentivized to keep us alive.
- For most humans, including "professionals", death is terrifying. Suicide is even more frightening. This fear in humans results in the act of trying to control and dominate what they can't understand.
- Your opinions are invalidated because you are valuable to the people who disagree (this value having either positive or negative intent). They do not give anything about what is valuable to you.

 

[Soupster]

I think a lot has to do with the inherent desire most people have to 'help' people who are suffering or in pain. They truly believe you can be helped and saved from your suffering (and in many cases, people can). It does not compute to them that there are people beyond the reach of modern medicine whose lives will continue to be nothing beyond suffering and he'll on earth each and every day they draw breath.

I wish everyone would avail themselves of trying and exhausting every method to recover before ctb, but I certainly don't judge those who don't. And those that do, and still find no peace in this life ought to be able to chose thier own future without interference.

 

[possessed]

It is as Satan mentioned in this thread already, but I want to add some other components to it. Humans indeed feel morally superior (particularly "learned" individuals, such as doctors and psychologists). This superiority stems from the extremely deeply rooted belief of the Hippocratic oath. The Hippocratic oath states that "primum non nocere", or translated to the commitment to do no harm. Not only future "doctors" (students) are indoctrinated by this belief. But this belief stretches to psychology and psychiatry too. In America you have the "ethical principes of psychologists and code of conduct" which also states "first do no harm to others". Every person who goes through the route of wanting to acclaim a position of health related subject, will be met with this oath in some form. This is the popular moral opinion of health and "caring" for others.

Now we move on to the meaning of harm. Harm as defined by the dictionary means the following: "to hurt someone or damage something". This to me is extremely ironic, since most of the medical establishment is profit driven with very little care for damage done. Most people don't seem to understand that the healthcare world and the medical establishment is a business. Not some charity who does everything out of the goodness of their hearts and souls. The medical establishment and modern healthcare doesn't have a heart and a soul. You are a number, you are their customer.

Most people are too ignorant about it. Even the doctors and psychologists who studied for years (translated: they have been indoctrinated by the same beliefs, making them absolute slaves to this system) are, frequently consciously, ignorant to it. Dentists get paid to sell you expensive products you don't need because they get a cut. Doctors get paid to perform operations or perform certain actions, they want you to take as much medicine, undergo as much treatment, stay a permanent customer forever. Psychologists and psychiatrists want you to talk to them for as long as possible, you are their customer. Psychiatrists are financially incentivized to provide certain medications. The list goes on and on, as you might already understand.

Most people think they are morally superior and trust the medical establishment completely and blindly. Most people will apply their perspective on your experiences. Death is scary, some people might argue the scariest thing. Suicide? Someone willing to meet death? Most people cannot understand this. What a person can't understand, he fears. This fear shows itself in wanting to control the individual (or generally; "thing") which causes this fear. Most of this all works unconsciously, but once you realize this process happens in most people in situations of fear, you will nearly always understand their motives.

Another thing is that the system wants you to remain alive. You are tax paying cattle. If too many people "drop out" of the system, it falls apart. No more cattle? Your farm falls apart. Can't control your cattle? Your farm falls apart. You are the cattle in this modern system. A cow produces less when he is constantly stressed and worn out. Farmers adhere to a fine line between extreme exploitation and comfort of the animal. Our society is structured in the exact same way. Everyone inside of this system is cattle to the farmers above them. Researching this rabbit hole, looking at who the biggest farmers are, is banned, extremely censored, illegal and highly dangerous. I wonder why…


Anyway, I can rant about this for hundreds of pages.

———
TLDR: Why do non-suicidal people feel so good about imprisoning suicidal people?

- "Professionals" are indoctrinated by our societal beliefs and incentivized to keep us alive.
- For most humans, including "professionals", death is terrifying. Suicide is even more frightening. This fear in humans results in the act of trying to control and dominate what they can't understand.
- Your opinions are invalidated because you are valuable to the people who disagree (this value having either positive or negative intent). They do not give anything about what is valuable to you.

I like this response, much appreciated!

 

[Kalista]

savior complex. they will go out of their way to make sure in keeping you alive without understanding anything about you. even if it hurts you further, because they only see the importance of keeping you around no matter what.

suicidal people are also placed under a single category. treated as if you're insane, crazy or no longer capable of thinking rationally. it's a reason why in a mental hospital you'll be grouped with people who actually no longer has a perception of reality.

you're only seen in a single manner, and there's only a single response to it. your suicidal thoughts are wrong, their belief in continuing to live is correct.