Venting Why aren't we being protected from the unethical act of procreation

[Darkover]

Since children can't consent to being born, it's unethical to impose life (give birth) in a world in which the potential for extreme suffering exists. Having children means gambling with the welfare of someone else. It means conducting Frankenstein experiments you can't control in which someone else pays the price. It means playing god while lacking a god-like control over the outcomes. In short, it's crazy.

When you point out to people that as long as people are giving birth, a certain percentage of those children will end up suicidally miserable (close to 800,000 people a year commit suicide in the world or about 64,000,000 people a year commit suicide in the world in a average lifetime), they tend to think that suicidal people are just the price we have to pay in order to have happy people. When people decide to have children, they are implicitly prioritizing the existence of happy people at the expense of those who will suffer. They are making a value judgment that happy lives are more important than suffering lives. Antinatalists believe the opposite: suffering takes precedence, and better no one exist than one person endure a nightmare existence. If the possibility of creating even one miserable, suicidal person exists, then it's unethical to have children. Either way, one group of people has to be sacrificed to the other. Either miserable people can be sacrificed so happy people can exist, or potential happy people can be sacrificed so suffering people don't have to exist.

Either miserable people can be sacrificed so happy people can exist, or potential happy people can be sacrificed so suffering people don't have to exist," doesn't that mean that either way it's unfair?

Even though it's unfair in both situations it's not equally unfair. Potential happy people won't miss what they haven't been alive to experience, but suffering people will suffer from existing. Therefore, it makes more sense prioritize suffering rather than happiness.

The asymmetry between suffering and happiness is key here. that potential happy people won't miss out on life because they were never born, while suffering people will suffer—is at the heart of the ethical dilemma.

 

[Jdieiejdjaow]

about 64,000,000 people a year commit suicide in the world in a average lifetime

What's 64M compared with billions for the capitalist system ran by sociopaths and psychopaths?

 

[Darkover]

What's 64M compared with billions for the capitalist system ran by sociopaths and psychopaths?

it's just the tip of the iceberg around 280,000,000 people suffer with depression world wide around 16 percent of the global population has a mental health disorder

 

[davidtorez]

Since children can't consent to being born, it's unethical to impose life (give birth) in a world in which the potential for extreme suffering exists. Having children means gambling with the welfare of someone else. It means conducting Frankenstein experiments you can't control in which someone else pays the price. It means playing god while lacking a god-like control over the outcomes. In short, it's crazy.

When you point out to people that as long as people are giving birth, a certain percentage of those children will end up suicidally miserable (close to 800,000 people a year commit suicide in the world or about 64,000,000 people a year commit suicide in the world in a average lifetime), they tend to think that suicidal people are just the price we have to pay in order to have happy people. When people decide to have children, they are implicitly prioritizing the existence of happy people at the expense of those who will suffer. They are making a value judgment that happy lives are more important than suffering lives. Antinatalists believe the opposite: suffering takes precedence, and better no one exist than one person endure a nightmare existence. If the possibility of creating even one miserable, suicidal person exists, then it's unethical to have children. Either way, one group of people has to be sacrificed to the other. Either miserable people can be sacrificed so happy people can exist, or potential happy people can be sacrificed so suffering people don't have to exist.

Either miserable people can be sacrificed so happy people can exist, or potential happy people can be sacrificed so suffering people don't have to exist," doesn't that mean that either way it's unfair?

Even though it's unfair in both situations it's not equally unfair. Potential happy people won't miss what they haven't been alive to experience, but suffering people will suffer from existing. Therefore, it makes more sense prioritize suffering rather than happiness.

The asymmetry between suffering and happiness is key here. that potential happy people won't miss out on life because they were never born, while suffering people will suffer—is at the heart of the ethical dilemma.

Nicely put

 

[Dayrain]

@Darkover Thanks for the stats again.

 

[Jdieiejdjaow]

it's just the tip of the iceberg around 280,000,000 people suffer with depression world wide around 16 percent of the global population has a mental health disorder

They may care on lost opportunities to exploit cheap labor if these people would be functional, though what's 16%? Still a minority. That's how they think. They don't give a shit.

 

[Ligottian]

Thumbs up to all the previous posts in this thread.

 

[JesiBel]

Yet, a suicidal/suffering person can "contaminate" the life of someone who is "potentially happy," leaving them with lifelong trauma and regret. Even take them along the same path.

So the number of people suffering is not only linked to the same individual.

 

[Darkover]

Yet, a suicidal/suffering person can "contaminate" the life of someone who is "potentially happy," leaving them with lifelong trauma and regret. Even take them along the same path.

So the number of people suffering is not only linked to the same individual.

Exactly — bringing someone into existence is a gamble. It's rolling the dice on their health, their mind, their environment, their experiences — things that no one can fully control. And if that life ends in deep suffering or suicide, it's not just that person who's impacted; it's everyone connected to them.

Parents, especially, risk not just losing their child, but living with that loss for the rest of their lives. Friends can carry that pain and confusion forever. And like you said, it can even pull them down too. So the decision to create life isn't a harmless one. It's loaded with risk — not just for the person being born, but for everyone who'll come to care about them.

It makes the whole "gift of life" narrative feel shallow when you really look at how fragile and unpredictable life actually is.

 

[Ligottian]

Exactly — bringing someone into existence is a gamble. It's rolling the dice on their health, their mind, their environment, their experiences — things that no one can fully control. And if that life ends in deep suffering or suicide, it's not just that person who's impacted; it's everyone connected to them.

Parents, especially, risk not just losing their child, but living with that loss for the rest of their lives. Friends can carry that pain and confusion forever. And like you said, it can even pull them down too. So the decision to create life isn't a harmless one. It's loaded with risk — not just for the person being born, but for everyone who'll come to care about them.

It makes the whole "gift of life" narrative feel shallow when you really look at how fragile and unpredictable life actually is.

My uncle died in a motorcycle crash that plunged my grandfather into a deep, almost invalid like clinical depression for seven years until he died of a heart attack. Good example of what you mentioned I think.

 

[divinemistress36]

Research shows mental illness is genetic . If a parent has mental illness its a high chance one of their kids will get it

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Research shows mental illness is genetic . If a parent has mental illness its a high chance one of their kids will get it

I'd imagine the degree of genetic link between mental illnesses likely differs depending on the mental illness and it is important to note that environmental factors probably are still going to play a major role in whether or not you display symptoms of certain mental illnesses. Mental illness is rarely caused by genetic variation alone. It's usually the result of a mixture of environmental and genetic factors.

I can even use myself as an example. My father is mentally ill but I'm not. Even if I'm genetically predisposed to mental illness I not suffer from it because there needs to be more than just genetic factors alone are typically not enough in the majority of cases. This isn't to say that there aren't cases of mental illness caused by a combination of multiple genetic variations alone or anything, but rather that this tends not apply in most cases of mental illness.

 

[divinemistress36]

I'd imagine the degree of genetic link between mental illnesses likely differs depending on the mental illness and it is important to note that environmental factors probably are still going to play a major role in whether or not you display symptoms of certain mental illnesses. Mental illness is rarely caused by genetic variation alone. It's usually the result of a mixture of environmental and genetic factors.

I can even use myself as an example. My father is mentally ill but I'm not. Even if I'm genetically predisposed to mental illness I not suffer from it because there needs to be more than just genetic factors alone are typically not enough in the majority of cases. This isn't to say that there aren't cases of mental illness caused by a combination of multiple genetic variations alone or anything, but rather that this tends not apply in most cases of mental illness.

True. What makes you want to die?

 

[betternever2havbeen]

Love this post. I just think people have little concept of how much you can suffer in this world. Like my mum needs dental work and she's putting it off for months even though I told her if that infection comes back and gets bad it's going to be like the worst pain you've ever had. She doesn't care, she's happy to risk it-madness. They're always happy to risk it when it comes to kids as well-especially when it's not them that has to pay the price. Unless they end up with a suicidal kid ofc.

Anyway I can't criticise parents too much on here so I'll just have to say I've spent my whole life trying to understand them because I have to share a planet with them, and I still just can't. It's why I don't belong here. I even gave up on the antinatalist sub as it was being invaded by trolls telling us how evil and misanthropic we are for not wanting kids to be born and suffer.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

True. What makes you want to die?

Oh, I just don't enjoy existing. Not all cases of people being suicidal are due to mental illness.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

@EvisceratedJester most people would describe not enjoying existing as a mental illness unfortunately. They have no concept that you wouldn't think life was worth it. Really pisses me off because it seems like a more than legitimate view to have on life.

 

[Ligottian]

Research shows mental illness is genetic . If a parent has mental illness its a high chance one of their kids will get it

"Raises hand".

 

[EvisceratedJester]

@EvisceratedJester most people would describe not enjoying existing as a mental illness unfortunately. They have no concept that you wouldn't think life was worth it. Really pisses me off because it seems like a more than legitimate view to have on life.

While mental illness can cause some to dislike existence due to the impact it has on their well-being, there are also plenty of mentally ill people who like living. I feel like your attitude towards existence alone doesn't really mean much when it comes to whether or not to label one as mentally ill but people, for some reason, seem to think otherwise. I don't like existing because I just don't find it appealing. I don't get the point of putting up with all sorts of stressors and mundane bullshit for the sake of living. The nice aspects of life just aren't enough to make up for me.

 

[divinemistress36]

While mental illness can cause some to dislike existence due to the impact it has on their well-being, there are also plenty of mentally ill people who like living. I feel like your attitude towards existence alone doesn't really mean much when it comes to whether or not to label one as mentally ill but people, for some reason, seem to think otherwise. I don't like existing because I just don't find it appealing. I don't get the point of putting up with all sorts of stressors and mundane bullshit for the sake of living. The nice aspects of life just aren't enough to make up for me.

The 10% of pleasure isnt worth it

 

[EvisceratedJester]

The 10% of pleasure isnt worth it

I'd say that the pleasure is higher than 10%, but yeah, it's not worth it.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

I'd say that the pleasure is higher than 10%, but yeah, it's not worth it.

10% would be extremely generous for me but then I fried all my dopamine receptors with addictions (would not recommend) funny thing is I don't even enjoy them, go figure. Still if I got what others get out of life I swear I wouldn't have turned to addictions to fill the void. But yeah the whole point being, even if life is pleasurable for most people on the whole, the pain can never be worth it because it'll always outweigh the good things. I do sometimes wonder what it'd be like to be a sociopath and then at least you wouldn't care about other people's suffering which is what really affects me. Like I can choose to get over my own pain but I can't do anything about anyone else's.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

But yeah the whole point being, even if life is pleasurable for most people on the whole, the pain can never be worth it because it'll always outweigh the good things. I do sometimes wonder what it'd be like to be a sociopath and then at least you wouldn't care about other people's suffering which is what really affects me. Like I can choose to get over my own pain but I can't do anything about anyone else's.

I mean, that's pretty subjective. For some people, the pleasure is enough to make up for the pain. It really depends on the person.

Also, sociopathy isn't a diagnosis. It's an outdated term. I think you are thinking of ASPD, which is a disorder that tends to arise partly due to trauma in childhood. ASPD is an awful disorder to deal with and is highly stigmatized. Plenty of people choose to prioritize their own pain over the pain of others without suffering from ASPD anyway.

 

[Still here]

Research shows mental illness is genetic . If a parent has mental illness its a high chance one of their kids will get it

This is why Ive been thinking of not having children and as you could end up causing someone an untold amount of suffering.....

 

[HouseofMortok]

I've been thinking, because in the UK they're targetting benefits.

Well here's a suggestion, my sperm donor didn't bother to pay maintenance for 16-18 yrs? He did cash in hand and manipulated his way through life, now claiming benefits these days to survive, I think government should sanction fathers benefits to pay for the benefits of their children that might still have a fighting chance in adult life to turn around or atleast alleviate some financial issues. If it's a choice of me enduring this bullshit realm, then you can take food from his mouth and put it into mine, he never tried, I've tried adult life, work, relationships, but you'll strip my benefits because I'm just sad or got shit life syndrome, he's never deserved a penny off the state and has never put in and abandoned responsibility of a child which I actually dunno if its better not having him as a role model, because i gave him a chance last year, what a fucking creep, so whilst im shy and introverted, I'd rather that than his creepy leering and letting onto women and some questionably young. Embarrassed and fucking annoyed he's still really only interested in manipulation, coercion and getting his dick wet. Wouldn't mind but I don't know how he thinks he has a chance, pathetic sack of shit has boils all over his face now from the years of alcoholism. Ah great, benefits are allowed to support a piss head, granting more diminished responsibility to wastes of oxygen. Part of me wants to kill him before myself, because he can get anyone pregnant in desperation, because I'm his only child, too late for my shite mother, but my dad has potential to hear of my death and go make another to do to same shit to that child? I don't fucking think so.

Now this would create issues for my sperm donor, he could end up homeless with no money, no government support. Good. That's what you get for not keeping your dick in your pants and walking away from a HUGE responsibility. I just want him to face responsibility and I think sanctioning fathers for the years they avoided paying is a start to show that there is a consequence for to coin a phrase, "fucked it, packed it, fucked off".

Oh my that turned out abit different, I'll post it anyways and deal with the anxiety lol

(I don't like posting, something will trigger me on YouTube, I'll reply, put em in their place, then delete comment, same on reddit, so I don't have any platforms, aside from here).

Edit: Just to add, when I hung out with him, was just a walk and abit of fishing, I told him about his father (temp living with his mum and dad cos his relationship failed, surprise surprise and something his father did when I was young. Not much of a reaction, just "he'll be dead soon" then a week later, he texts me "ive just bought a predator fishing rod" i didn't respond because I thought.. Is he referring slying to his dad and my trauma, sly taking the piss? The hours later in the evening he texts out of the blue "its called PREDATOR" why the caps, why emphasise it? So i didn't bother again, he text haha, get this... Cause I'm not replying, but given he's never been there my whole life and I'm 36 now.. He goes.. "I give up"

lmao wut. You gave up at conception you fucking loser.

Ah dear. All I need is time alone for exit bag and I can't fucking get any, I've tried night night a few times now and it's not for me, but I know I can be gone whilst they're in bed.