Discussion When someone says that people who commit suicide due to mental reasons are incompetent...

[ayb]

Has this actually been proven? As in has there been a study on this showing that most people with depression and such are mentally incompetent and cannot consent to suicide?

I personally think it's bullshit. Many people in the Netherlands and Belgium have recieved euthanasia and were deemed mentally competent by doctors to choose to die. I see this said a lot by regular people with the subject of CTB comes up, but I have not seen any evidence of it.

 

[Redt2go]

Who said incompetent?

 

[Redt2go]

You can be both competent and irrational

 

[JustLosingMyself]

Many people in the Netherlands and Belgium have recieved euthanasia and were deemed mentally competent by doctors to choose to die.

Many have, but for terminal illness. Very very few (2 or 3 I think, but please correct me if I'm wrong) for reasons of depression or mental illness.

It's a bit of a circular argument. CTB or its attempt is considered proof of mental illness/depression and thus incompetence, because only depression/mental illness would lead to CTB

 

[JustAboutDone]

Isn't there a straightforward way of measuring mental capacity in the Uk under these circumstances?

A person has to:

• Understand information given to them about a particular decision
• Retain that information long enough to be able to make the decision
• Weigh up the information available to make the decision
• Communicate their decision.

If they can do that they are then deemed to have 'capacity' to make decisions about their own health and care.

Having a mental illness may or may not affect someone's capacity - it depends on the individual and the illness.

 

[explorer]

This society must stop calling suicide peple incompetent, cowards way out, selfish.. there are many reasons to ctb apart from mental illness. Only the sufferer understans the pain

 

[ron_g]

Whether "mentally ill" people should be given the freedom to suicide is actually controversial among experts. Some psychiatrists argue that people with chronic depression should have the right to assisted suicide.

https://www.bioedge.org/bioethics/bioethics_article/why_deny_the_depressed_their_right_to_suicide/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Appel

Quotations:

"If the values championed by assisted suicide advocates are maximimisation of autonomy and minimisation of suffering -- even when they conflict with the extension of life -- then it follows that chronically depressed, competent individuals would be ideal candidates for the procedure," he asserts.

Appel suggests the use of "full-time thanatologists [a specialist in death] specially trained for the act".

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

Isn't there a straightforward way of measuring mental capacity in the Uk under these circumstances?

A person has to:

• Understand information given to them about a particular decision
• Retain that information long enough to be able to make the decision
• Weigh up the information available to make the decision
• Communicate their decision.

If they can do that they are then deemed to have 'capacity' to make decisions about their own health and care.

Having a mental illness may or may not affect someone's capacity - it depends on the individual and the illness.

Right. But then the universal "mental illness" pundits simply argue that by definition wanting to die is itself indicative both of mental illness and incompetence/grave stupidity/irrationality.... All these synonyms and euphemisms mean the same thing to these exclusive pro-lifers: that it is virtually impossible in ways legally justifiable to choose to end our own lives.

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

This society must stop calling suicide peple incompetent, cowards way out, selfish.. there are many reasons to ctb apart from mental illness. Only the sufferer understans the pain

I wholeheartedly agree. But, of course, as the "experts" tell us, those of us who agree with you, by definition, aren't competent (or "rational") to make decisions for ourselves. :)

 

[NoOneKnows]

Whether "mentally ill" people should be given the freedom to suicide is actually controversial among experts. Some psychiatrists argue that people with chronic depression should have the right to assisted suicide.

https://www.bioedge.org/bioethics/bioethics_article/why_deny_the_depressed_their_right_to_suicide/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Appel

Quotations:

"If the values championed by assisted suicide advocates are maximimisation of autonomy and minimisation of suffering -- even when they conflict with the extension of life -- then it follows that chronically depressed, competent individuals would be ideal candidates for the procedure," he asserts.

Appel suggests the use of "full-time thanatologists [a specialist in death] specially trained for the act".

why only with chronic depression?...waht about severe OCD or chronic physical illness.

I would come up with a system of rating, that would measure quality of life (it would be questionnaire including many type of questions discussing major areas of life). And if the result is very low, lets say under 30 points, we can talk about euthanasia...just an example

 

[Xerox]

I say. . .
they are unenlightened.

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

why only with chronic depression?...waht about severe OCD or chronic physical illness.

I would come up with a system of rating, that would measure quality of life (it would be questionnaire including many type of questions discussing major areas of life). And if the result is very low, lets say under 30 points, we can talk about euthanasia...just an example

Shhhhh! Stop being so progressive and affirming individuals' imperatives to decide for ourselves about our own bodies and lives.

 

[cornflowerblue]

It doesn't make sense to me because people with depression or suicidal ideation are still considered competent enough to gamble or sign contracts, they haven't been declared legally incompetent overall.

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

It doesn't make sense to me because people with depression or suicidal ideation are still considered competent enough to gamble or sign contracts, they haven't been declared legally incompetent overall.

Beautiful. We're "incompetent" (or whatever other word you want to use to prohibit our personal freedom) when it comes to suicide, but we're "competent" enough to be responsible for all the other things we have to do--pay bills and taxes, obey laws, act "right" so that people around us feel comfortable, slave away at work for pennies to pay more bills, be bound to legal contracts... Very convenient how competent/incompetent can exist simultaneously in the same person. :)

 

[ayb]

Many have, but for terminal illness. Very very few (2 or 3 I think, but please correct me if I'm wrong) for reasons of depression or mental illness.

It's a bit of a circular argument. CTB or its attempt is considered proof of mental illness/depression and thus incompetence, because only depression/mental illness would lead to CTB

Not as few as that

56 people recieved euthanasia for mental illness in 2015 in the Netherlands. Not a huge number overall but not as small as you claim.

Who said incompetent?

The people who I have talked to. "Rationality" is extremely subjective. I would argue that people make many 'irrational' decisions in their day to day lives and have the freedom to do so.

What this boils down to is if mental illness = mental incomptence and an inability to consent to suicide. I see absolutely zero evidence of this. Just because someone is mentally ill does not make them incompetent and lacking capacity to decide whether or not to kill themselves.

 

[EmotionlessWanderer]

In my opinion the only person who understand's someone's mental illness is the person themselves even if they may not be fully aware.

Claiming non mentally ill Pro Lifers know what your illness is like and what you truly want is like saying 12 year olds know how weapons function because of action films.