what-is-it-like-to-be-you

[ksp]

this focuses on the concept of Qualia (one quale, multiple qualia)

- this is one of the reasons i support individual autonomy: the reason why no one can be judged, by anyone else


qualia is the subjective experience or perception, that cannot be explained to another individual

this experience is inconceivable to any other human being:

• cannot be communicated, or apprehended by any means other than direct experience
• it cannot be compared to anything else
• it exists only to you (this cannot be perceived by anyone else)
• you know it exists - to you (you are very aware of it)
• you have a very intimate knowledge of it

examples:

- attempt to describe this to a blind person (from birth)

• what is color? (explain it)
• what is red?
• what is the difference between purple and blue?
• what does a sunset looks like?

- describe a melody to a deaf person
- how can a woman describe an orgasm to a man (man to woman) exactly?
(in such a way that the other person doesn't need to change their gender)


anyone else finds this intriguing and frustrating?

 

[jodes2]

What a frustrating thought!! I try not to think about such things in any detail one for me is consciousness, specifically how it's possibly I am me, how my consciousness could just be plucked from the void and create something that is aware of itself and only itself. Why me? What is "me"? I can't describe this wonder sufficiently. Never have been able to, not have I seen anyone else describe it quite how I feel it. Very frustrating

 

[Source Energy]

this focuses on the concept of Qualia (one quale, multiple qualia)

- this is one of the reasons i support individual autonomy: the reason why no one can be judged, by anyone else


qualia is the subjective experience or perception, that cannot be explained to another individual

this experience is inconceivable to any other human being:

• cannot be communicated, or apprehended by any means other than direct experience
• it cannot be compared to anything else
• it exists only to you (this cannot be perceived by anyone else)
• you know it exists - to you (you are very aware of it)
• you have a very intimate knowledge of it

examples:

- attempt to describe this to a blind person (from birth)

• what is color? (explain it)
• what is red?
• what is the difference between purple and blue?
• what does a sunset looks like?

- describe a melody to a deaf person
- how can a woman describe an orgasm to a man (man to woman) exactly?
(in such a way that the other person doesn't need to change their gender)


anyone else finds this intriguing and frustrating?

This is why I ceased trying to explain myself to other people. They cannot understand - they can never feel through your perspective, see through your eyes. I wonder if solipsism is the true thing after all...

 

[catowice]

anyone else finds this intriguing and frustrating?

Intriguing indeed. Frustrating even more indeed!

Came for the curiosity, stayed for the stories. Also why I very much long for stories, my understanding of people may still be epsilon but you only need an epsilon to be euphoric!

 

[ksp]

I wonder if solipsism is the true thing after all...

---

i had to look up solipsism:

sŏl′ĭp-sĭz″əm, sō′lĭp-
noun

1. The theory that the self is the only thing that can be known and verified.
2. The view that the self is the only reality.
3. The belief or proposition that the person entertaining it alone exists, and that other people exist only as ideas in his mind.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

More at Wordnik

and from wikipedia:

Solipsism (/ˈsɒlɪpsɪzəm/ (listen); from Latin solus 'alone', and ipse 'self')[1]​ is the philosophical idea that only one's mind is sure to exist. As an epistemologicalposition, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind.

---

the way i see the difference between qualia and solipsism:

- qualia is directly connected to consciousness and absolute subjectivity - my awareness is extremely unique, and cannot be communicated and apprehended by any other human being (indiscribable); i'm not concerned about the existence of other minds - if the exist or not (i don't have a problem acknowledging other people)

- solipsism is absolutely certain that my mind exists ("I think; therefore I am"), but it doubts the existence of other conscientiousnesses - 'all people around me are just figments of my imagination'; i am only capable o perceiving my own awareness - for sure, but my mind generates all people around me; my mind generates my entire world and reality around me, with every step i take - my mind deceives me, constantly (my main problem is that other people don't exist)

maybe my interpretation is wrong?

---

---

…my understanding of people may still be epsilon but you only need an epsilon to be euphoric!

i'm not too sure what you mean be 'epsilon': if you mean that your understanding is an arbitrarily small but positive, random yet irreducible difference - that's an unusual and whimsical way of expressing yourself :)

(you're 'quirky', like sheldon in the big bang theory :)

 

[catowice]

i'm not too sure what you mean be 'epsilon': if you mean that your understanding is an arbitrarily small but positive, random yet irreducible difference - that's an unusual and whimsical way of expressing yourself :)

(you're 'quirky', like sheldon in the big bang theory :)

Taking that as a compliment. Thanks! :D

Yes that's correct. Epsilon in computer science can denote a small constant, only finds its usage where floating-point round-off error appears!

 

[Source Energy]

I believe solipsism and qualia to be related. Imagine your soul/ Inner Self like a tiny scintilla of energy. Picture the Universe as an infinite fabric formed by zillions of such scintillas. All of them interconnected, but each with its own consciousness. Each experiences reality in its way. That is us.
thing is, why is my mind showing me/ creating such an ugly reality? my life is like a watching a movie full of sadness and injustice and being unable to press exit

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't know if we are all that different though. I mean- sure- our unique bodies give us different experiences. If we are unfortunate enough to lose a major sense- especially from birth- then- yes- I imagine it would be extremely difficult to try and describe that sensation fully. Still- I've read that even people who are blind from birth still sometimes have visual dreams. How are they able to describe that even?!! How do deaf people learn to speak when they can't hear themselves?

On a basic level- we understand what it's like to feel pain and pleasure and different emotions. (I kind of wonder if the female orgasm is that different to a man's- surely- they've both evolved to feel nice? I mean- I'm game to describe what I feel to the best of my abilities if we all want to compare! Lol.)

Plus- most of us have been schooled in language. The stories we tell ourselves in our heads while we are conscious likely get related in those languages. WHAT we tell ourselves varies though: 'I hate my life, I'm exploited in this job, I feel so unhappy, I've failed, or: I had a wonderful day yesterday with my family, my boss was really understanding, I feel really calm, I'm really pleased with that- I've really improved.'

Not to say there's a right or wrong to how we SHOULD feel but we are just tools at the end of the day. Tools that happen to be here experiencing the world. Seeing as we have roughly the same physiology- I'm imagining we all feel similar sorts of things. What WILL change that though is illness. Someone with bipolar or schizophrenia likely is experiencing their world differently. Still again- won't they STILL be experiencing things we are familiar with- just to more extreme degrees and sometimes with no exterior input?

Other species of animals likely experience the world very differently- they even experience time differently to us! Still- we STILL seem to share things in common. We tend to enjoy things that are instinctively good for our survival- like eating and sex and we tend to avoid things that hurt- like fire and falling.

It's true- that no one can know what it's like to be another person entirely- and- I agree- autonomy should be a right. Still- that- to me- feels like a different argument. That argument seems more to rely on- I'm right and you're wrong. It's not that people don't want to accept that your experience of life is different to theirs. It's more that they feel that someone with such a negatively skewed viewpoint must be mentally ill.

 

[ksp]

I don't know if we are all that different though

we are the same in regards to the basic understandings: basic laws of nature, basic laws of physics, anatomy, etc
even the comprehension of feelings or emotions: basic understanding (we have an idea of what they are)

but this is where our similarities end: the most rudimentary and limited tools to explain our experience to other people
we use language to enhance our explanations to others - to help them to better understand what we're going through
but our communication skills are extremely inadequate to express our complex thoughts, feelings, and perceptions

we all know what a headache is: the same basic definition to all - "my head hurts"
i have an idea what you feel like, but there is an ocean between what your understanding of your headedake, an my understanding of your headeake. and there is an ocean between your minimum level of pain, to your maximum level of pain

now please explain to me, your headache - in such a way that i will be able to feel exactly what you're feeling. and not in general terms - but exactly; make me experience your pain: you have a headache, and i don't have a headache - make me feel your pain - right now

you have a toothache - inconceivable pain (on the nerve ending)
make me feel your pain: your agony is so unbearable that your screams are unable to reduce it, at all (far from it)
now make me experience your agony - exactly
how would you express your torment to me so that i feel this horrendous, debilitating nightmare?
how do you define your suffering? is your suffering the same as mine, if i was in the same situation?
am i going to feel that my screams will not reduce that pain?

and i just asked you to make me feel your pain of a toothache
let's imagine there are no dentists, and your toothache can never be fixed
you'll have to continue to feel this relentless pain for the rest of your life - it will never kill you, but it will never become bearable either

just replace 'toothache' with any other chronic decease

i'm not even talking about cancer or other terminal illnesses - refusing voluntary euthanasia to terminal patients is absolutely idiotic, and sadistic; pro-lifers are beyond torturers: they extract pleasure and righteousness bast on the amount of pain they inflicted on sufferers - this is what makes them feel good and superior, in the name of their god

sorry for deviating from the main subject - i got a little worked up…

the female orgasm is that different to a man's- surely- they've both evolved to feel nice?

this is just a guessing game; we'd like to imagine the difference between the two orgasms but we'll never truly understand it. pleasure is absolutely relative, just like pain.

this is the qualia that i'm referring to - incomprehensible to not only to another individual of the opposite gender, but another individual of the same gender; if you're a male explain your orgasm to another male, or if you're a female explain your orgasm to another female: "it feels fantastic !!!" (duh - there aren't any enough adjectives to describe it)

your orgasm is just indescribable, no matter how you attempt to describe it - it will be far off the mark.

the only way for someone else to feel your orgasm, is through direct experience: the other person needs to change their body with yours. not only that, but they'd need to inherit your memories of your adult life (all your sexual encounters). and not only that, either: the other person will need to experience exactly the same fantasies or romantic thoughts, all the way leading to, and inclusive of the orgasm itself

qualia is what makes me so unique that i find my isolation to be pure torture (so i avoid thinking about it)

Someone with bipolar or schizophrenia likely is experiencing their world differently. Still again- won't they STILL be experiencing things we are familiar with- just to more extreme degrees and sometimes with no exterior input?

i disagree with this: at least with an orgasm i have an idea of what you're referring to (however remote) - i have the basic understanding of maximum pleasure (to me, not to you). i have to confess that bipolar or schizophrenia are a complete unknown to me: i have no idea what either of them mean - i've never experienced either; i won't pretend that i relate, or that i have empathy, not because i don't want to empathize someone else, but i am simply not able to understand it (i feel bad for people have them, but that's the extent of my ability)

Other species of animals likely experience the world very differently- they even experience time differently to us! Still- we STILL seem to share things in common

i think that other animals have an extremely low level of empathy (limited by their understanding of the world)
a lioness that never had a cub of her own will never feel empathy for another lioness that just lost one, or all of her cubs (to a lion). i lion will never feel empathy for an antelope - ever; this would be a an act against nature. all lions will die off, eventually. an ant colony will never feel empty for another colony that are kept as slaves for the initial colony. even for dogs or horses: we see them as missing their owners. we assign them our emotions, we assume they feel the same way, but i don't know that they do: a dog will miss its routine, it will miss the food the the owner constantly provided. a dog's empathy is not the same as human empathy

i think any being capable of consciousness will be able to have qualia - an existence that is will not be transferred to any other being, but animals will not be expecting empathy from any other

autonomy should be a right. Still- that- to me- feels like a different argument. That argument seems more to rely on- I'm right and you're wrong.

how do you understand as autonomy? how do you define it?

this is how i define it: autonomy is independence over your thoughts or actions and the ability to make your own decisions about what to do without being influenced - about anything that pertains to your life - anything
'I'm right and you're wrong' - about anything, but more specifically my suffering:
- i am right - about your suffering
- you are wrong - about your suffering

this is the biggest conflict of all: i don't have the right to judge your suffering, as well as you don't have the right to judge my suffering

if i tell you that my toothache is excruciating, you don't have the right to tell my that my toothache is not excruciating
when you invalidate my pain, you base your judgment on your experience and pain level, not mine: my pain is mine, and it doesn't apply to you, at all (even if you have the best intentions) - you are incapable to appreciate my suffering because of my qualia - everything that amounts to my total life experience is unreachable to you, regardless of your good intentions

It's more that they feel that someone with such a negatively skewed viewpoint must be mentally ill.

if o pro-lifer tells my that i must be mentally ill, i respond - without any hesitation - that they must be mentally ill
between these opposing views, about my suffering, who is right: pro-lifers view - about my life, or me - about my life?
pro-lifers view about my life is simply irrelevant (anyone else's view, about my life, is irrelevant)

if a pro-lifer values their life - i'm not stopping them; i don't engage in a debate about their values, but they do have the audacity to debate my values, about my life (i don't impose my views on anyone, and i expect others not to impose their views on me)

pro-suicide could be considered an extreme 'negatively skewed viewpoint' - mentally ill
pro-life could also be considered an extreme positively skewed viewpoint - also mentally ill
I AM PRO-CHOICE - extremely mentally healthy :)

my qualia gives me absolute power to judge my life, and decide for myself

---

(sorry for such a long response but i feel very strongly about my autonomy, and qualia is one of my strongest arguments)

 

[Forever Sleep]

pro-lifers view about my life is simply irrelevant (anyone else's view, about my life, is irrelevant)

It IS relevant though- because THEY make the rules. If suicidal and depressed equals mental illness (according to the normies) and mental illness means that the person isn't capable of making decisions for themselves (according to the normies,) you can say goodbye to autonomy. I think BOTH of these points are being debated now and I think they will become crucial moving forward in the gatekeeping aspect of assisted suicide.

I know you will argue that you don't have mental illness. I would be inclined to join you and say that I'm not sure that I do either- not severe anyhow. Still- there ARE people who attribute their ideation to mental illness. Perhaps they aren't willing to give up their autonomy but they ARE conceeding that it is due to their 'illness' that they feel and think the way they do.

What I find the most frightening about this is- whether there is a cure for everyone? When is enough enough? When have they proven that they can't be cured? SHOULD they even have to 'prove it?' Actually- this is something I don't know but- can someone refuse treatment (for whatever ailment they have) AND be granted assisted suicide? I'm kind of guessing no. Sorry- off topic there...

I DO agree with you in principle by the way. I think the problem lies in diagnosis- especially when it comes to mental health. Ironically- I think it is BECAUSE of this inability to experience another's pain. If someone has inoperable cancer- it can be seen and tested and diagnosed. I get the impression with mental health that it's a LOT more complicated. I'm not sure if you can go along and say: I've been unhappy for decades and I'm suffering terribly- but I've never sought out treatment. I'm not sure that they'll be able to detect anything in a brain scan. I get the impression that there hasn't been that much research done (relative to physical illness) with regards to the physical symptoms of mental suffering.

I suppose what I'm trying to say (badly) is that I sort of suspect we will always have to PROVE that we are suffering in order to be accepted for assisted suicide (PLUS that a cure is very unlikely.) BECAUSE of this very thing- we can't know anothers pain. I'm not so sure there will come a time where people can opt for assisted suicide based purely on their own diagnosis- ie. I can't take it anymore! Of course- even with that set up- there could still be measures to stop impulsive acts- assessments and OFFERS of treatment and help over a six month period for example.

Bottom line I feel though is- it comes down to money (as always.) Maybe they want physically and mentally ill people to go through a whole load of pharmaceuticals and therapy BEFORE they shuffle off this planet. REALLY- they don't give a shit about your pain, or anyone elses. The people calling the shots likely have the money to get hold of lethal drugs if and when THEY want to go. The rest of us can only go when we're allowed to- or- we can take the DIY approach.

 

[ksp]

It IS relevant though- because THEY make the rules

i know, and agree with everything you mentioned, unfortunately

i'm trying to fight against old mentality, for people on this site, and this community, but to me - society's views about my life are irrelevant (the only relevant view is mine).

i'm saying this to anyone willing to listen: we are entitled to feel what we feel; society can frown on our views, but just because someone is depressed, they can never give up their autonomy - this basic right is undeniable

there are two very specific cases when a person cannot have autonomy:

1. convicted criminals (in prisons), or insane criminals (unable to serve their sentences due to mental illness)
2. people unable to live with the most basic requirements of life (dementia, alzheimer's disease, people who can't even sign their names, or cannot consent to anything)

not one person on this forum can give up their autonomy - this would be the worst of mistake of their life:
you are able to create an account, you are able to vent, complain, reflect, and contemplate - you are entitled to your autonomy

suicidal and depressed thoughts are not grounds to dismiss autonomy

if mentally illness is a criteria, i'm not more mentally ill than any current leader of any country in the world
i am not more mentally ill than any doctor (psychiatrist / psychologist / therapist, etc)

What I find the most frightening about this is- whether there is a cure for everyone? When is enough enough? When have they proven that they can't be cured? SHOULD they even have to 'prove it?'

i agree (i feel like we're fighting against the metaphoric windmills)

i don't want to allow society to decide when my 'enough' is enough for me - i know when enough is enough (my qualia)
i don't want to prove anything, to anyone - i want to end my life - period, so i need to exit with dignity - i don't need any debates, and i don't need a 'big brother' watching over me - my life, my prerogative

I think the problem lies in diagnosis- especially when it comes to mental health.

i agree with this too. there shouldn't be any debate:

1. am i a criminal (no autonomy)?
2. am i not able to consent to anything (no autonomy)?

if the answer to both is 'no' - i deserve to be able to end my life

If someone has inoperable cancer- it can be seen and tested and diagnosed. I get the impression with mental health that it's a LOT more complicated.

absolutely!

- terminal illness - automatic approval for voluntary euthanasia (no debate, whatsoever)
- mental illness - a still a long way to go, but we will get there (proud to be canadian)

I suppose what I'm trying to say (badly) is that…

don't put yourself down like that ! (i forbid you :) - you are a strong voice, and you are more than able to express yourself clearly ! (i certainly understand what you're saying)

I'm not so sure there will come a time where people can opt for assisted suicide based purely on their own diagnosis

i am sure of this (unless we nuke ourselves, in the meantime)
life will not continue to be a prison, for ever - brighter minds will prevail :)

it comes down to money (as always)

obviously - that will be a considerable factor (but i don't really care :)


(thank you for bringing up very solid points!)