Discussion what if the worlds not even real?

[snowman626]

so right now i have my SN and antiemetics ready to go and i can have a relatively peaceful exit from this world any time i want, but the only thing stopping me is guilt of leaving behind family.

lately ive been feeling about how fucked up would it be if i hold on to this life for decades more only for everyone out there to not even be real. what i mean is if this is some kind of dream or reality simulation. think of a video game GTA where there are different characters in the background. in the game those characters are doing their own thing and are made to seem like they are independent of you (the main character in the game) and if your character die then they will presumably continue on. but the reality is that in the game when you die everything and everyone else dies with it.

when you think about it there is no proof that there's anything "out there" apart from your own consciousness. everything exists in your mind. the reason you believe there is an "out there" is an assumed belief that very few ppl question.

because you see people around you die and you're still here, so logic says when you die everyone else would still be there. however one critical difference is you are the main character of the game and the people you see die around you aren't. if this is in fact a reality simulation like a GTA game then there is a big difference between a background character dying and a main character dying, because in the latter case the whole game dies with it.

 

[PrettyMoose]

There is a word for that and it is called solipsism. I don't believe that though, I think we all feel as though we are main characters but none of us are. Or as Rust Cohle in True Detective says "We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self; an accretion of sensory, experience and feeling, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody is nobody."

There is some truth that when each of us dies a world itself dies, since we each perceive the world in our own way and once we are gone that perception is gone. We're really just fancy recording devices, and the information we collect is eventually lost. Like a broken camera.

 

[s1mplem3]

Interesting theory, but if people around me are not real then why if they kill me I'll die?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

No worries, you exist and are experiencing all this because apparently I'm the main character in this reality simulation.

 

[Apathy79]

You view yourself as the main character. That person you saw die viewed herself as the main character. Everyone else you see views themselves as the main character. Their perception of the world disappeared when they died and the world continued. Just like your perception of the world will disappear and the world will continue.

 

[ExitStageLeft]

Individuals certainly do exist objectively. The overwhelming majority of people never questioned this until the emergence of Cartesian-influenced philosophies after the sixteenth century. However, there is no reason to assume that your individual subjectivity - a product of your particular neurological and personal makeup - will only exist once. The aforementioned Rust Cohle says that "time is a flat circle", and who are we to argue with him?

 

[theguineapigking]

so right now i have my SN and antiemetics ready to go and i can have a relatively peaceful exit from this world any time i want, but the only thing stopping me is guilt of leaving behind family.

lately ive been feeling about how fucked up would it be if i hold on to this life for decades more only for everyone out there to not even be real. what i mean is if this is some kind of dream or reality simulation. think of a video game GTA where there are different characters in the background. in the game those characters are doing their own thing and are made to seem like they are independent of you (the main character in the game) and if your character die then they will presumably continue on. but the reality is that in the game when you die everything and everyone else dies with it.

when you think about it there is no proof that there's anything "out there" apart from your own consciousness. everything exists in your mind. the reason you believe there is an "out there" is an assumed belief that very few ppl question.

because you see people around you die and you're still here, so logic says when you die everyone else would still be there. however one critical difference is you are the main character of the game and the people you see die around you aren't. if this is in fact a reality simulation like a GTA game then there is a big difference between a background character dying and a main character dying, because in the latter case the whole game dies with it.

I completely understand. I too fear solipsism. I already want to die because I hate my life and society so much. But the thought of my loving family being fake is horrible. It's a horrible version of the matrix. I fear that I'll wake up only to find that this is hell and I'm being tricked over and over in a simulation. Kind of like the "white bear" episode from black mirror.


I truly fear this. There is no way to prove it's not real because your consciousness is not able to "feel" another conscious life force. You can only assume they are real because of the way that you were raised in this world. You assume everyone is real through your 5 senses.. usually sight, hearing, and feeling. But those senses aren't a guarantee that someone else is conscious.


If there's a robot that behaves like a human outwardly.. for the most part(I'm not talking technically with blood tests or blah blah blah) , you can't tell them apart from a living human(assuming people exist). So what's to say that this isn't the same scenario. If you can't tell a life-like robot from a truly alive human, how can you even tell that the human is real?

The whole thing is terrifying as hell. This and the block universe theory are so scary.


I just try to not think about it too much. But I can't stand the thought of living for many years only to find out that it's all fake. It's driven me nuts.


I'm so sorry that you too fear this. All I can do is assume my family and other people are alive for the sake of functioning. I guess on the bright side, just know that there's no evidence that this is or isn't the case. Anything is possible. From my perspective, it's just as likely possible as it isn't.


I'm here if you want to talk more about it. I've made a post about this too, but I haven't found many like you that truly fear it this much.

 

[Darkhaven]

Solipsism is a very interesting philosophy branch.
I'm not very good at it so i can't seriously answer your question.
I can, however, say, that if this were to be all fake and a simulation (like the matrix) i wouldn't truly care as long as i got to be free from it and left permanently unconscious forever.
But, the thing is, if our lives and the world as we know it turns out to be fake then is there something that can be described as "real"?
If so then do we have any connection with it? Are we in that "real world" just as we are in this fake/made up reality?
And what if that real world turns out to be far worse than this one and we can't escape from it?
These are the questions i think would be of paramount importance in such a scenario.
But, tbh, i think we are on the "real deal". This is it, and after we're gone then it's just an eternity of nothing.

 

[nerve]

I'd be so relieved if one day I found out that none of this has been real.

 

[theguineapigking]

Solipsism is a very interesting philosophy branch.
I'm not very good at it so i can't seriously answer your question.
I can, however, say, that if this were to be all fake and a simulation (like the matrix) i wouldn't truly care as long as i got to be free from it and left permanently unconscious forever.
But, the thing is, if our lives and the world as we know it turns out to be fake then is there something that can be described as "real"?
If so then do we have any connection with it? Are we in that "real world" just as we are in this fake/made up reality?
And what if that real world turns out to be far worse than this one and we can't escape from it?
These are the questions i think would be of paramount importance in such a scenario.
But, tbh, i think we are on the "real deal". This is it, and after we're gone then it's just an eternity of nothing.

The real worry op and I have is that other consciousnesses are not real. That means not only is this reality a simulation like the matrix, but other people are also simulations. For me, That would mean that my family is fake. I'm all alone and everyone else is an empty drone, you included. This fear is even worse than the matrix.. much much worse.

 

[Darkhaven]

The real worry op and I have is that other consciousnesses are not real. That means not only is this reality a simulation like the matrix, but other people are also simulations. For me, That would mean that my family is fake. I'm all alone and everyone else is an empty drone, you included. This fear is even worse than the matrix.. much much worse.

But if i or any other person reading this were to be a simulation then how can i also be considering that the world is a simulation?
If i or any other person were just simulations inside your or the op's head then how come i also have my own personal thoughts, just like i'm currently thinking on this discussion?
Doesn't that imply we are all real?
I'm sorry if i'm not making much sense, i'm really bad at philosophy (despite finding it interesting) and my english isn't very good so i'm probably not being able to express myself correctly.

 

[Myforevercharlie]

Interesting... I'd never heard about this theory. Somebody know some good sites / books about it?

 

[Darkhaven]

Interesting... I'd never heard about this theory. Somebody know some good sites / books about it?

I guess you can search for "solipsism" and see what turns out. There might be some good books about it.

 

[Myforevercharlie]

I guess you can search for "solipsism" and see what turns out. There might be some good books about it.

I did, but there seems to be loads. I'm just lazy :) but I think I found a good site with the basics

 

[theguineapigking]

But if i or any other person reading this were to be a simulation then how can i also be considering that the world is a simulation?
If i or any other person were just simulations inside your or the op's head then how come i also have my own personal thoughts, just like i'm currently thinking on this discussion?
Doesn't that imply we are all real?
I'm sorry if i'm not making much sense, i'm really bad at philosophy (despite finding it interesting) and my english isn't very good so i'm probably not being able to express myself correctly.

I completely understand what you mean. Your understanding is close, but not quite there yet...

Basically it's about perspective. From my perspective, I "fear" that you are not real. That doesn't mean that you aren't. Each person can only feel their own life force..basically that means that you are aware of your own consciousness. Can you feel mine? Can you promise yourself that I am conscious too? No, because you cannot feel my energy..my consciousness. You can only assume I'm alive by seeing my body, hearing my words, feeling a slap on the shoulder. But a robot could do that too, right? That's what I mean.. there is no way for an individual person to prove to themself that everyone else is actually alive and not a drone.

From my perspective, I can't prove to myself that you are alive. From your perspective, you can't prove to yourself that I am alive. It's a conundrum.


So even if you are alive(from my perspective), you can't prove it to me.

I can clarify more if you want. Just ask questions that you think the answers to would help you understand more.

 

[Darkhaven]

I completely understand what you mean. Your understanding is close, but not quite there yet...

Basically it's about perspective. From my perspective, I "fear" that you are not real. That doesn't mean that you aren't. Each person can only feel their own life force..basically that means that you are aware of your own consciousness. Can you feel mine? Can you promise yourself that I am conscious too? No, because you cannot feel my energy..my consciousness. You can only assume I'm alive by seeing my body, hearing my words, feeling a slap on the shoulder. But a robot could do that too, right? That's what I mean.. there is no way for an individual person to prove to themself that everyone else is actually alive and not a drone.

From my perspective, I can't prove to myself that you are alive. From your perspective, you can't prove to yourself that I am alive. It's a conundrum.


So even if you are alive(from my perspective), you can't prove it to me.

I can clarify more if you want. Just ask questions that you think the answers to would help you understand more.

I think i got it.
So, basically, the only way for us to really know the answers to these questions would be to kind of have a post mortem consciousness that allowed us to see the world for what it truly is and from outside of our current limited and obscured perspective?

 

[Emily123]

it is real but an awful reality

 

[theguineapigking]

Basically.

If you suffer anxiety, I'd suggest stopping here, seriously. It's an existential crisis that can destroy you.

I fear that I will wake up after killing myself(even now as I'm practicing partial using my family's swingset for the rope, I fear dying for this solipsism reason). Basically I fear that I will find out that I'm in a personal hell of some sort damned to live life in a very limited self awareness. I fear that I'll never know if anyone else is real. The only chance I have is if I die and have a spiritual awakening and my conscious awareness is increased such that I can now feel the energy and life force of other beings. Then I could be positive that I'm not the only consciousness in this universe.


If I believe this 100%, I wouldn't be posting this now. It's more about the "what if" fears.

There's much more to it..certain technical possibilities. But I'm not going to burden you with that anxiety.

I know I may sound crazy, but I'm not. It can not be scientifically disproven. That's the sad part.

FYI: solipsism is not a cocky mindset. It's not about thinking "I" created everything and "I" am GOD!!! It's more about thinking that I'm being played and forced in a simulation created by someone else. So like the matrix, but other people are fake and NOT real people hooked up to machines. I know some people view solipsism as being snobby. It's not.

 

[Darkhaven]

Basically.

If you suffer anxiety, I'd suggest stopping here, seriously. It's an existential crisis that can destroy you.

I fear that I will wake up after killing myself(even now as I'm practicing partial using my family's swingset for the rope, I fear dying for this solipsism reason). Basically I fear that I will find out that I'm in a personal hell of some sort damned to live life in a very limited self awareness. I fear that I'll never know if anyone else is real. The only chance I have is if I die and have a spiritual awakening and my conscious awareness is increased such that I can now feel the energy and life force of other beings. Then I could be positive that I'm not the only consciousness in this universe.


If I believe this 100%, I wouldn't be posting this now. It's more about the "what if" fears.

There's much more to it..certain technical possibilities. But I'm not going to burden you with that anxiety.

I know I may sound crazy, but I'm not. It can not be scientifically disproven. That's the sad part.

FYI: solipsism is not a cocky mindset. It's not about thinking "I" created everything and "I" am GOD!!! It's more about thinking that I'm being played and forced in a simulation created by someone else. So like the matrix, but other people are fake and NOT real people hooked up to machines. I know some people view solipsism as being snobby. It's not.

It's a very interesting approach to our existence, there is no doubt about it.
As to it's potential distressing and anxiety inducing effect i don't feel it is any worse than you regular "eternal torture in a fiery and chaotic hell" approach.

 

[omoidarui]

I believe everyone's real, i.e. we're all "main characters", but what if our concept of reality isn't the same at any one time? I don't know if this is the same as solipsism or if I'm going to be able to explain this.

Using the characters in Pokémon as an example (this works because the game adjusts the formalities depending on which character you choose to be at the beginning of the game, which is similar to what I'm trying to describe). If you're Brendan, then in *your* reality you're the gym leader's son and May, your rival, is Birch's daughter. However, this is not the reality as May would perceive it. In May's reality/simulation (or if you chose to be May), she's the gym leader's daughter, and *Brendan* is Birch's son. The two are real, but experiencing simulations catered to them, and interactions they perceive to be making between them is just a depiction of what the other would say/do had they really been present.

Basically, everyone you know is real, but what you're witnessing of them is only what they'd do if they were actually there, when in their custom worlds they're doing something else. And then when we die we all meet for real and discuss how each of our "games" played out.

None of this is likely to be true anyway, but I wouldn't mind if it was; it would mean what I'm reading on this forum is part of my reality only, and you could all actually be living relatively happy lives in your own personalised realities. Also means when I die no'one will be sad because I'll still be alive in their world, so that's good.

 

[Darkhaven]

I believe everyone's real, i.e. we're all "main characters", but what if our concept of reality isn't the same at any one time? I don't know if this is the same as solipsism or if I'm going to be able to explain this.

Using the characters in Pokémon as an example (this works because the game adjusts the formalities depending on which character you choose to be at the beginning of the game, which is similar to what I'm trying to describe). If you're Brendan, then in *your* reality you're the gym leader's son and May, your rival, is Birch's daughter. However, this is not the reality as May would perceive it. In May's reality/simulation (or if you chose to be May), she's the gym leader's daughter, and *Brendan* is Birch's son. The two are real, but experiencing simulations catered to them, and interactions they perceive to be making between them is just a depiction of what the other would say/do had they really been present.

Basically, everyone you know is real, but what you're witnessing of them is only what they'd do if they were actually there, when in their custom worlds they're doing something else. And then when we die we all meet for real and discuss how each of our "games" played out.

None of this is likely to be true anyway, but I wouldn't mind if it was; it would mean what I'm reading on this forum is part of my reality only, and you could all actually be living relatively happy lives in your own personalised realities. Also means when I die no'one will be sad because I'll still be alive in their world, so that's good.

Nice touch with the pokemon scenario. Took me way back, to when i was happy (Ruby was my first pokemon game).

 

[BabyYoda]

If this world was some kind of Sims game then my player must be one of those other players who love to play sadistic pranks on their characters.

BTW, I used to do the same when I played Sims as a kid. I was a kid ok..........I was naive..........I don't play Sims anymore..........*sweats*

 

[Hoopali]

FYI: solipsism is not a cocky mindset. It's not about thinking "I" created everything and "I" am GOD!!! It's more about thinking that I'm being played and forced in a simulation created by someone else. So like the matrix, but other people are fake and NOT real people hooked up to machines. I know some people view solipsism as being snobby. It's not.

Whilst I agree that it is neither snobby nor cocky to think this, I do believe there is a certain narcissism to it. I don't mean that in a critical way - more a psychoanalytical way.

We all believe in the "I" because "I" am the only one who feels EVERYTHING I feel and knows EVERYTHING I think. We cannot comprehend another's existence as we cannot feel what they feel or know what they are thinking. So to us they may as well be a character on television or a YouTube video. We can see what they do and hear what they say but it is so one dimensional to therefore make them one dimensional.

I have often looked at people driving cars past my window or waiting at traffic lights and wondered "Who is that person? What are they thinking? What are they worried about right now? How does the steering wheel they are holding feel to them?"

It's impossible to know - it's like trying to read a book without picking it up and opening it. I guess it's a little Schrödinger's cat in that you guess the words and story are in there but without being able to look you will never know.

This all leads us to believe the only reality we know. Which is that of self.

Rather than the GTA analogy in the original post, I would suggest you try to think of it more as a MMORPG. Other characters interact and do things outside your sphere of control, concern or even visibility, but they still do them whether you died to that raid boss or not.

All that being said, I'm no psychoanalyst and have been known to talk absolute BS (they just don't know whether I think it too... )

Spoiler

I do.

The thing I wonder, which I also find really interesting, is whether what I perceive to be green is what you see as blue. And therefore if I looked through your eyes would I see green skies and blue grass?

 

[theguineapigking]

Whilst I agree that it is neither snobby nor cocky to think this, I do believe there is a certain narcissism to it. I don't mean that in a critical way - more a psychoanalytical way.

We all believe in the "I" because "I" am the only one who feels EVERYTHING I feel and knows EVERYTHING I think. We cannot comprehend another's existence as we cannot feel what they feel or know what they are thinking. So to us they may as well be a character on television or a YouTube video. We can see what they do and hear what they say but it is so one dimensional to therefore make them one dimensional.

I have often looked at people driving cars past my window or waiting at traffic lights and wondered "Who is that person? What are they thinking? What are they worried about right now? How does the steering wheel they are holding feel to them?"

It's impossible to know - it's like trying to read a book without picking it up and opening it. I guess it's a little Schrödinger's cat in that you guess the words and story are in there but without being able to look you will never know.

This all leads us to believe the only reality we know. Which is that of self.

Rather than the GTA analogy in the original post, I would suggest you try to think of it more as a MMORPG. Other characters interact and do things outside your sphere of control, concern or even visibility, but they still do them whether you died to that raid boss or not.

All that being said, I'm no psychoanalyst and have been known to talk absolute BS (they just don't know whether I think it too... )

The thing I wonder, which I also find really interesting, is whether what I perceive to be green is what you see as blue. And therefore if I looked through your eyes would I see green skies and blue grass?

Hey. If your consciousness was in someone's body that perceived colors inaccurately(by human standard), you'd see them inaccurately too..at least based on science. It's the eyes that perceive certain frequency photons(em radiation..like radio waves but much higher frequency).Our eyes are tuned to convert this energy to electrical signals. Some people's eyes don't work like an average persons eyes. I don't know if this is what you meant or not when you were wondering though.






My mom and I both wonder the same thing you do about individual peoples' lives. So many cars on the highway, and each has their own life. It's fascinating. Hard to believe even.

I believe everyone's real, i.e. we're all "main characters", but what if our concept of reality isn't the same at any one time? I don't know if this is the same as solipsism or if I'm going to be able to explain this.

Using the characters in Pokémon as an example (this works because the game adjusts the formalities depending on which character you choose to be at the beginning of the game, which is similar to what I'm trying to describe). If you're Brendan, then in *your* reality you're the gym leader's son and May, your rival, is Birch's daughter. However, this is not the reality as May would perceive it. In May's reality/simulation (or if you chose to be May), she's the gym leader's daughter, and *Brendan* is Birch's son. The two are real, but experiencing simulations catered to them, and interactions they perceive to be making between them is just a depiction of what the other would say/do had they really been present.

Basically, everyone you know is real, but what you're witnessing of them is only what they'd do if they were actually there, when in their custom worlds they're doing something else. And then when we die we all meet for real and discuss how each of our "games" played out.

None of this is likely to be true anyway, but I wouldn't mind if it was; it would mean what I'm reading on this forum is part of my reality only, and you could all actually be living relatively happy lives in your own personalised realities. Also means when I die no'one will be sad because I'll still be alive in their world, so that's good.

This is a very deep and interesting perspective. I've thought about this type of possibility some in the past, but kind for forgot about it. But you bringing it up reminded me of it. That is a very unique possibility. Basically everyone you know is a simulation of the real being and the reason is so that each person can have a specific simulated life to learn.


Wow.

 

[Hoopali]

Hey. If your consciousness was in someone's body that perceived colors inaccurately(by human standard), you'd see them inaccurately too..at least based on science. It's the eyes that perceive certain frequency photons(em radiation..like radio waves but much higher frequency).Our eyes are tuned to convert this energy to electrical signals. Some people's eyes don't work like an average persons eyes. I don't know if this is what you meant or not when you were wondering this.


I get what you mean about the whole thing. I'm just not sure if you fully understand solipsism. It's more anxiety based. It's not so much that you think more about yourself or anything. It's the literal anxiety that nobody else is actually alive. It's more of a terrifying thought. It's not that I'm dismissing other peoples' importance or thinking I'm more enlightened than then. It's not simply that I feel distant. It's literally the fear that what appears to be another person is just an empty shell with no soul. Basically that they're not even alive at all. The way you worded your reply makes me think you don't fully understand the meaning of solipsism. I'm sorry if I perceived it wrong though.







My mom and I both wonder the same thing you do about individual peoples' lives. So many cars on the highway, and each has their own life. It's fascinating. Hard to believe even.


I'm not trying to insult you FYI. I'm simply curious if you fully understand solipsism. Like I said, it's not so much that im too focused on my life or dismissing other peoples' importance(I know you didn't say that), it's the literal fear that I'm the only conscious being and that I'm in a simulation, perhaps being tricked by evil beings. Then when I die I find out that I have no family and that I'm all alone. I'll never know if other people are alive or if it's fake. It's a terrifying thought.



This is a very deep and interesting perspective. I've thought about this type of possibility some in the past, but kind for forgot about it. But you bringing it up reminded me of it. That is a very unique possibility. Basically everyone you know is a simulation of the real being and the reason is so that each person can have a specific simulated life to learn.


Wow.

Hi, not offended at all - we're all here to learn and discuss

That being said, what you are describing is solipsism syndrome. Which is quite different to solipsism which is a philosophical idea. I appreciate it's semantics, but solipsism itself is merely the idea that only "I" exists - it does not have the anxiety that you have mentioned. The anxiety that one may feel with that then leads to the solipsism syndrome.

I do agree though that thinking about it too much can lead to a bit of an existential crisis but it is a fascinating subject.

 

[theguineapigking]

Sorry. I am tired. I read your lost wrong somehow. My brain fog.. lol. Sorry about that.

You're right about solipsism. I referred to it incorrectly. I meant it the way you said "solipsism syndrome".


Thanks for discussing it with me. It's scary but fascinating to discuss.

 

[whereispeace]

That would be a relief. I'm tired of this life.

 

[Kumachan]

I Dont know why some ppl feel anxious about this solipsism idea! Its kinda nice actually, its all my dream! But why the hell i dont seem to be able to control it?!!

Well, let me ask you this: would you agree to be 100% alone(The only conscious being) if you could control this "dream world"? Lets say you could control it in the LoA manner reliably - via visualization-imagination. Of course all ppl(NPCs) would still be there to keep you company:)

 

[watereyes]

"Reality is an illusion, although a very persistent one."

-Some smart guy

 

[Csmith8827]

so right now i have my SN and antiemetics ready to go and i can have a relatively peaceful exit from this world any time i want, but the only thing stopping me is guilt of leaving behind family.

lately ive been feeling about how fucked up would it be if i hold on to this life for decades more only for everyone out there to not even be real. what i mean is if this is some kind of dream or reality simulation. think of a video game GTA where there are different characters in the background. in the game those characters are doing their own thing and are made to seem like they are independent of you (the main character in the game) and if your character die then they will presumably continue on. but the reality is that in the game when you die everything and everyone else dies with it.

when you think about it there is no proof that there's anything "out there" apart from your own consciousness. everything exists in your mind. the reason you believe there is an "out there" is an assumed belief that very few ppl question.

because you see people around you die and you're still here, so logic says when you die everyone else would still be there. however one critical difference is you are the main character of the game and the people you see die around you aren't. if this is in fact a reality simulation like a GTA game then there is a big difference between a background character dying and a main character dying, because in the latter case the whole game dies with it.

What if that was true but the NPC'S of the game/world itself was actually God and He/She/it had revealed himself/herself/itself to you. I mean I'm talking an entire freeway of car's that is actually a single Entity/the same being controlling all of it. That's what I know to be a Fact and I talk/commune/communicate with this being everyday.

Which gets crazy because this site is apart of "the matrix" as well which means....

And so if you were in my situation would you say "fuck it," and take SN? I have meto I just need to reorder my SN...