What a scientist learned from studying baboons for over 30 years

[Captive of Mind]

I'd like to know what everyone's opinion on this is. He has a National Geographic special talking about his findings and this is a 9 minute clip from that special:

Why hierarchy creates a destructive force within the human psyche (by dr. Robert Sapolsky) - YouTube

This is a quote from that clip:

"If you're a baboon, you spend about 3 hours a day getting your calories, so this means you have about 9 hours a day to devote to making somebody else just miserable. They're not being stressed by lions chasing them all the time, they're being stressed by each other. They're being stressed by social and psychological tumult invented by their own species. They're a perfect model for westernized stress related diseases."

 

[Nymph]

If you're a baboon, you spend about 3 hours a day getting your calories, so this means you have about 9 hours a day to devote to making somebody else just miserable. They're not being stressed by lions chasing them all the time, they're being stressed by each other. They're being stressed by social and psychological tumult invented by their own species. They're a perfect model for westernized stress related diseases."

This makes sense, that's why I have anxiety...I hate being around people. Being exposed to humans everyday-all the time.

 

[Captive of Mind]

This makes sense, that's why I have anxiety...I hate being around people. Being exposed to humans everyday-all the time.

I'm sorry you suffer from this too. It is a huge driving force in my decision to kill myself.

 

[Captive of Mind]

Ahh, a fellow Sapolsky fan! I've watched a bunch of his lectures (he's a professor at Harvard) and interviews. Such an amazing and interesting person. He is down to earth, intelligent, and has an entertaining way of speaking. He battles with severe depression and I think maybe suicidality too and he has REALLY good information in his lectures that helped me a lot.

That story you love is in the 9 minute clip I linked! It was almost life changing when I saw that whole thing play out. It gets even deeper than that if you remember.

 

[kitch]

Ahh, a fellow Sapulsky fan! I've watched a bunch of his lectures (he's a professor at Harvard) and interviews. Such an amazing and interesting person. He is down to earth, intelligent, and has an entertaining way of speaking. He battles with severe depression and I think maybe suicidality too and he has REALLY good information in his lectures that helped me a lot.

That story you love is in the 9 minute clip I linked! It was almost life changing when I saw that whole thing play out. It gets even deeper than that if you remember.

I deleted my comment when I watched the video .
( I realized I was repeating the story ! ... I was too eager to share ! ha ha )
Most definitely a Sapolsky fan !!!

Absolutely life changing ... it puts everything "human" into perspective .
The best , most informative Depression youtube video is Sapolsky ... it just put it all together .

( On a parallel note ... I am enthralled with "Other Minds" by Peter Godfrey-Smith , about Octopus and Cuttle fish ... really great . ( I spam about it ... :/)

 

[Captive of Mind]

I deleted my comment when I watched the video .

Most definitely a Sapolsky fan !!!

Absolutely life changing ... it puts everything "human" into perspective .
The best , most informative Depression youtube video is Sapolsky ... it just put it all together .

( On a parallel note ... I am enthralled with "Other Minds" by Peter Godfrey-Smith , about Octopus and Cuttle fish ... really great . ( I spam about it ... :/)

Haha, your comment was still very relevant!

Exactly! It really does put our experience into perspective! I think the information in that video is especially compelling and relevant because 1) humans are more similar to baboons than most other species of animals and 2) because the amount of time Sapolsky spent studying them almost guaranteed that he was basing his conclusions on an accurate wealth of knowledge.

You are not exaggerating about his material on depression. His life's work was studying how stress effects our health. Please, if anyone reading this is dealing with stress or depression, look up Robert Sapolsky on Youtube and you will not regret it.

I'm glad you mentioned your interest in Peter Godfrey-smith. I'll have to get sucked down that rabbit hole now. I'll let you know what I think about it.

 

[gtrfvr]

I'd like to know what everyone's opinion on this is. He has a National Geographic special talking about his findings and this is a 9 minute clip from that special:

Why hierarchy creates a destructive force within the human psyche (by dr. Robert Sapolsky) - YouTube

This is a quote from that clip:

"If you're a baboon, you spend about 3 hours a day getting your calories, so this means you have about 9 hours a day to devote to making somebody else just miserable. They're not being stressed by lions chasing them all the time, they're being stressed by each other. They're being stressed by social and psychological tumult invented by their own species. They're a perfect model for westernized stress related diseases."

Why havent these unusual troupes become the dominant force in nature? He generalizes from a catastrophic event that killed off half the males - this cant be the first time in history a pathogen killed off half the males. If this form of organization is superior then why is it so rare? Adapting to a catastrophic event is all well and good but Im wondering where the gotchyas are. What unique circumstance is preventing predators from taking over?
It's like generalizing from bonobos but they occupy a pretty small niche.
I'm sure you disagree, everyone loves the kumbaya narrative but it's hasty to generalize from a catastrophe that sapolsky happened to be there to witness vs millions of years of primate (and non-primate, hierarchies are not specific to primates) evolution.

 

[Captive of Mind]

Why havent these unusual troupes become the dominant force in nature? He generalizes from a catastrophic event that killed off half the males - this cant be the first time in history a pathogen killed off half the males. If this form of organization is superior then why is it so rare? Adapting to a catastrophic event is all well and good but Im wondering where the gotchyas are. What unique circumstance is preventing predators from taking over?
It's like generalizing from bonobos but they occupy a pretty small niche.
I'm sure you disagree, everyone loves the kumbaya narrative but it's hasty to generalize from a catastrophe that sapolsky happened to be there to witness vs millions of years of primate (and non-primate, hierarchies are not specific to primates) evolution.

I think you missed the point. He is not stating that nicer communities would become more dominant, that was just a side effect. He was pointing out that their physical and mental health was far superior to the alternative social structure. How could you deny the fact that if there is a hierarchy wherein each member is terrorizing the the subjects below them in status, then that community will suffer from psychological and physical trauma? He demonstrated this with extensive testing. Watch the whole National Geographic Special and you will see how in depth the entire 30 year process goes. It wasn't simple observation, there was tons of empirical data.

 

[gtrfvr]

"A different kind of killing occurred at Gombe when a female and her daughter killed and ate three infants of other females of the same community during a 2-year period." https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/155817 "Infant killing and cannibalism in free-living chimpanzees"

I think you missed the point. He is not stating that nicer communities would become more dominant, that was just a side effect. He was pointing out that their physical and mental health was far superior to the alternative social structure. How could you deny the fact that if there is a hierarchy wherein each member is terrorizing the the subjects below them in status, then that community will suffer from psychological and physical trauma. He demonstrated this with extensive testing. Watch the whole National Geographic Special and you will see how in depth the entire 30 year process goes. It wasn't simple observation, there is tons of empirical data.

disagreeing isn't the same thing as missing the point.
if lack of hierarchy is stable, not just a fluke from a rare set of circumstances, then why isnt it more common? shouldnt the first calamity that killed off most males have resulted in kumbaya breaking out all over the animal kingdom?
shouldnt the males that dont compete but love grooming outreproduce the males that do compete?
It's all too counter to the growth and dominance of hierarchy for millions of years.
no dispute from me that egalitarian societies can thrive when everyone is equally poor. that doesnt seem to last is all I'm saying.

Now I'm going to get back to ruminating over killing myself if nobody minds....

 

[deadspirit]

This was a cool upload! I've seen this guy's lectures before, he's so well spoken and too the point.

This is definately super relevant today. I live in America and it seems like here the highest goal is to achieve the highest social and economic status possible, its such a meaningless and empty culture.

 

[262653]

I'm somewhere in the middle of his human behavioral biology course on YT. The stuff is so entertaining I could watch it solely for recreational purposes. Actually, that could be exactly why I'm watching it.

 

[Captive of Mind]

"A different kind of killing occurred at Gombe when a female and her daughter killed and ate three infants of other females of the same community during a 2-year period." https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/155817 "Infant killing and cannibalism in free-living chimpanzees"

disagreeing isn't the same thing as missing the point.
if lack of hierarchy is stable, not just a fluke from a rare set ofg circumstances, then why isnt it more common? shouldnt the first calamity that killed off most males have resulted in kumbaya breaking out all over the animal kingdom?

I think that he was recognizing that the situation he stumbled upon was a fluke, but it's results were undeniable. Sapolsky understood that the more aggressive and cut throat hierarchies would always dominate. He wasn't trying to say that this new social structure would become more prevalent. He was saying that the effects on the baboons mental and physical health was drastic. He was stating that being nicer "makes for a better world". You did miss the point because you think he was claiming something that he wasn't.

It's also worth pointing out that this wasn't the only baboon troop that he studied. He wasn't drawing all of his information from this one troop.

This was a cool upload! I've seen this guy's lectures before, he's so well spoken and too the point.

This is definately super relevant today. I live in America and it seems like here the highest goal is to achieve the highest social and economic status possible, its such a meaningless and empty culture.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! This guy is one of my all time favorite people.

I couldn't agree more about the state of American society. The effects of the way things are set up are pervasive. It's almost impossible not to be affected by it because it seeps into almost every social interaction. Apparently, when people from America go to live with tribes in South America or Africa, they discover that those societies are happier and have much less mental illness.

 

[deadspirit]

I couldn't agree more about the state of American society. The effects of the way things are set up are pervasive. It's almost impossible not to be affected by it because it seeps into almost every social interaction. Apparently, when people from America go to live with tribes in South America or Africa, they discover that those societies are happier and have much less mental illness.

I'm not surprised, those communities seem much more inclusive of individuals, plus tribes are smaller so you can see the impact your having on it with all the work and effort you put forth. In modern society if you work a 9-5 job you most likely aren't gunna see the effects of it and might even do something completely useless to anyone

 

[Captive of Mind]

I'm somewhere in the middle of his human behavioral biology course on YT. The stuff is so entertaining I could watch it solely for recreational purposes. Actually, that could be exactly why I'm watching it.

Heck yeah! For some reason that makes me happy to hear that you have been enjoying it that much. Not only is the material intellectually stimulating, but he also has such a captivating way of teaching it.

Several years ago, I was trimming weed on a pot farm for many hours a day and I would just throw on his lectures and trim away.

 

[gtrfvr]

i dont even know why im arguing this. i hate the dominance hierarchy. the bigger the house the greater the number of prescriptions. there's more than enough to go around, especially with machines and whatnot.
the fact that one guy can horde as much as 150 million people is a bullshit crime that's totally indefensible.

the blood tests reflecting stress of being low on the hierarchy has been reproduced in humans iirc.

im much more motivated by curiosity than competition though not immune to that stupid fucking competitive streak when pressed. my parents should never have reproduced. i hope sapolsky is right.

you may not believe it but I'm going to take you up on your offer to watch the whole thing.

 

[Captive of Mind]

I'm not surprised, those communities seem much more inclusive of individuals, plus tribes are smaller so you can see the impact your having on it with all the work and effort you put forth. In modern society if you work a 9-5 job you most likely aren't gunna see the effects of it and might even do something completely useless to anyone

Damn, you are pointing out things that I'm sure most people yearn for and don't even know it. It actually saddens my heart to think about how those aspects were missing in my life. We are just so brain washed into thinking that this is normal, when in realty, we have come so far away from what our bodies and minds were built for.

i dont even know why im arguing this. i hate the dominance hierarchy. the bigger the house the greater the number of prescriptions. there's more than enough to go around, especially with machines and whatnot. im much more motivated by curiosity than competition though not immune to that stupid fucking competitive streak when pressed. my parents should never have reproduced. i hope sapolsky is right.

Hey man, I really hope I didn't get you down about that. I was only defending the life work of one of my heroes because I didn't want him to be misrepresented.

I also despise the dominance hierarchy, and I think I would still hold that view even if I had a higher status. It is something inherent within me. I could be competitive and I enjoy healthy competition, but I've always had a distaste for the way it is handled in ALL aspects of society. I feel like most social interactions turn into a competition with people in some way. I hate it. Someone always has to condescend and look down on others. People want to metaphorically walk in front of you instead of side by side. I wish we were all more like Sapolski's baboon troop. :/

 

[gtrfvr]

full natgeo is/was up at

 

[Captive of Mind]

full natgeo is/was up at

I'm glad you posted this! Within the first 30 seconds of the video, I think most of SS would be intrigued.

 

[Deleted member 17949]

We really live in a society in which we find copes and annoy other enemy humans with our pointless emotional needs, just like monke.

 

[Captive of Mind]

We really live in a society in which we find copes and annoy other enemy humans with our pointless emotional needs, just like monke.

Uhh, it's spelled monki, cryptic. Get it right. ;)

But seriously, you are right. And it is the lower ranking individuals who bare the brunt of all of it. It feels like all other monki look at me as a target!

 

[Deleted member 17949]

Uhh, it's spelled monki, cryptic. Get it right. ;)

But seriously, you are right. And it is the lower ranking individuals who bare the brunt of all of it. It feels like all other monki look at me as a target!

It's a tough one. Social structures ideally promote efficiency and cooperation, but in reality our sense of individual need is always going to leave some people at the bottom and others at the top. Humans specifically live in a huge network together like ants but with the individuality of animals made for much smaller groups which I suppose is bound to cause some interesting emergent behaviors.

 

[Captive of Mind]

It's a tough one. Social structures ideally promote efficiency and cooperation, but in reality our sense of individual need is always going to leave some people at the bottom and others at the top. Humans specifically live in a huge network together like ants but with the individuality of animals made for much smaller groups which I suppose is bound to cause some interesting emergent behaviors.

Honestly, now that you mention it, hierarchies have a lot of benefits to them. The issues arise when the people who hold higher status (or believe they are higher status) mistreat the ones below them. Which seems to be the rule instead of the exception.

Also, I'm not sure, but you might be thinking of this more in terms of at places of employment or different organizations. Those places have a necessity for hierarchy. I'm more of talking about general social interaction where people presume they are above you despite not having any given role as such. Like the baboons in the video who are forced to take shit from the stronger, tougher, more aggressive baboons.

 

[Deleted member 17949]

Honestly, now that you mention it, hierarchies have a lot of benefits to them. The issues arise when the people who hold higher status (or believe they are higher status) mistreat the ones below them. Which seems to be the rule instead of the exception.

Also, I'm not sure, but you might be thinking of this more in terms of at places of employment or different organizations. Those places have a necessity for hierarchy. I'm more of talking about general social interaction where people presume they are above you despite not having any given role as such.

I was more just thinking of humans working together in a very broad sense. tbh if you think about social structures as emergent behavior rather than planned behavior it does make sense. People are just following simple feelings and not really considering their group as a whole and the greater consequences of their actions.

 

[Captive of Mind]

I was more just thinking of humans working together in a very broad sense. tbh if you think about social structures as emergent behavior rather than planned behavior it does make sense. People are just following simple feelings and not really considering their group as a whole and the greater consequences of their actions.

It definitely makes sense that this is the way things would have to be. And I also agree that most of the time people aren't consciously carrying these things out. I can't blame people for following what their genetics programmed them to do. It just gets really stressful for the ones who have to take shit from everyone. Did you see that video? Those baboons were seriously torturing each other for no reason. Poor monki :(

 

[gtrfvr]

about halfway through, strikes me that its the the revolutionary vs the reformer.

both agree that hierarchy impacts biology, the higher up in the hierarchy the less stress the less adverse health consequences and the lower in the hierarchy, the more stress and the more adverse health consequences.

they disagree on what should be done in light of this biological impact of hierarchy.

the revolutionary says that we can do away with hierarchy (eg after disease kills off the alphas). no hierarchy no hierarchy induced stress.

the reformer says we cant do away with hierarchy but might mitigate its effects.

pretty cool to see sapolsky using a blow gun to tranquilize baboons

Social structures ideally promote efficiency and cooperation, but in reality our sense of individual need is always going to leave some people at the bottom and others at the top

take deferring gratification, or a positive outlook. suppose some part of that is due to biology you inherit from your parents? some attributes help you rise in hierarchies. i dont see how over time that doesnt re-establish hierarchy.

maybe it can be improved in those shafted by biology with ritalin or st John's wort or something. but until we can equalize the attributes that lead to ascending in hierarchies...

Honestly, now that you mention it, hierarchies have a lot of benefits to them. The issues arise when the people who hold higher status (or believe they are higher status) mistreat the ones below them. Which seems to be the rule instead of the exception.

Also, I'm not sure, but you might be thinking of this more in terms of at places of employment or different organizations. Those places have a necessity for hierarchy. I'm more of talking about general social interaction where people presume they are above you despite not having any given role as such. Like the baboons in the video who are forced to take shit from the stronger, tougher, more aggressive baboons.

"it flows down hill" norms try to counteract this (eg being a gracious victor). even the whole hr culture tries to reduce this in the workplace but it's a rare boss that doesnt make subordinates have a bad day when they're having a bad day.

 

[Captive of Mind]

about halfway through, strikes me that its the the revolutionary vs the reformer.

both agree that hierarchy impacts biology, the higher up in the hierarchy the less stress the less adverse health consequences and the lower in the hierarchy, the more stress and the more adverse health consequences.

they disagree on what should be done in light of this biological impact of hierarchy.

the revolutionary says that we can do away with hierarchy (eg after disease kills off the alphas). no hierarchy no hierarchy induced stress.

the reformer says we cant do away with hierarchy but might mitigate its effects.

pretty cool to see sapolsky using a blow gun to tranquilize baboons

Ohh hell yeah! You watched the whole thing! Your takeaway from it is exactly right.

I agree with the reformer more than the revolutionary. Hierarchies are natural and really unavoidable. Even if they could be done away with, I don't think it would be a good thing. The root of the problem lies within the quality with which each level is treated. Having status is a good thing if it isn't used to inflict suffering.

 

[kane]

I've always found Sapolsky's take pretty convincing when it comes to hierarchy and suffering. But that could just be because it maps on to my own observations of social dynamics. Not sure that understanding can be easily applied to improving society though. People are pretty ingenious at finding subtle ways to psychologically terrorize each other. You crack down on bullying and they just find other ways to otherize and isolate. It's like most of us our constantly subconsciously on the lookout for an excuse to treat others like shit.