we have very minimal control over our lives.

[Darkover]

This isn't necessarily a view that we have no free will. I can consider that I want to get in shape and that I need to go for a run to do that, and then go for a run and achieve a certain outcome.

But if it was that simple nobody would be fat. Whether or not we have the self-discipline to do something is out of our control. Our personality is out of our control. The times when were being shaped the most by our environment are the times when we have the least control over our environment (infancy).

We have some control, we can put our energy into avoiding certain behaviors and cultivating others, but the basis of our personality is already more or less set in stone before we hit puberty and when we reach adulthood theres really not a lot we can actively change.

We really only have control over our own actions, behaviors and responses, and even then there can be limiting factors outside of our control such as illness or disorder. We have control over what house we buy, but we have no control over whether there's a devastating flood or tornado that destroys it. Anything that happens outside ourselves is more or less beyond our control. We may have influence on how certain events play out, but we never have total control over the outcome.

we don't have a choice whats look back at us in the reflection of the mirror

Earth is a prison planet.

You are imprisoned here in your body, until you are not.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Definitely we are born with limitations and awful shit happens to some people.

I for one will freely admit I'm lazy now though! I'm worse than I ever have been in fact. I'm not sure that's hereditary. My close relatives worked hard- I do still work hard in some areas. It certainly isn't nurture either. I was brought up with a very strong work ethic. It's why I used to feel so guilty when I wasn't doing something constructive. But, it's like I've rejected all that now! Well, as much as I financially/ feasibly/ hygienically can.

I'm starting to make more effort now because I have to but, it's such an uphill battle. It's hard to know if it is the same for other people. How much do the 'normies' out there have to force themselves to do stuff? It's difficult to tell.

I wouldn't discount choice in all this though. Some people choose not to work. Even choose to break the law because they don't like the system and don't want to comply to it. That isn't always hereditary either. It's not to say it's the wrong choice. In a way, I can see that point of view. Why should we work to make rich people richer? Why should we comply to all that? I'm not so sure it's all destined and unavoidable though.

I don't think feeling suicidal is a great motivator either! Why would you slave away, working hard for a future you don't intend to be here for?!! That's one of my stumbling blocks now.

Some people would argue that it shows greater insight and intelligence to reject authority rather than illness. I don't know really. I think we do need to take responsibility for our actions to some extent though otherwise- there's no liability. Criminals can simply blame their murders/ rapes/ assaults on their genes or their upbringing or their destiny. Personally I'd say- yes- they had it really tough but ultimately, they made a choice.

I expect we're all quite good at justifying our own choices- even when we know it's a questionable choice. Someone like me would love a slice of carrot cake. Depends on how much I want to not put on weight as to whether I resist. I think a lot of choice is about motivation- is what I've got to gain enough for me to do or not do this? I wonder if that's more learnt behaviour rather than anything genetic or destined though. I expect it's a whole mixture really.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Touché. If I had control over my life, I wouldn't even be here. But my incompetence can't be controlled and that's that

 

[DEATH IS FREEDOM]

The child inherits 50 percent of its DNA from each parent. Heredity creates man. It is who we are that we can´t do anything about. The responsibility for our existence and our behavior lies with our ancestors. Nor can we influence the environment which consists of injusticies. I was born without my permission and I don´t even have the right to die due to lack of euthanasia. I am expected to be tormented in lifelong suffering and I don´t know how long I must suffer - an indefinite prison sentence. Mankind has created this prison on the Earth and I think that the world would be better without humans. But what is wrong in the society can be changed - it is up to the politicians to make laws.

 

[Argo]

I think the problem of choices and control and free will are solved easily, but the language game we play is what causes confusion, and it causes confusion even for very smart people. It's part of why it's still some kind of contentious issue and why we can't just all plainly agree that there's no free will. (the other part is the idea of free will basically only benefits the powerful)

So that language game is this:

We smuggle in the word "free" into any agency language. So when I say "You made that choice" , what people hear is, "You made that choice freely". "You made that decision" -> "You made that decision freely " And so on. This implies some kind of liability any time we use this agency language.

We obviously make choices and decisions. But do we make them freely, or is this all just utterly rigged? Any examination will admit that it's rigged completely. Nothing you've ever done or will ever do, is free, because it's a product of states you did not create. It's that simple.

And so it's a kind of assumption we make about freedom, and this assumption comes from being groomed into a society that treats you as if you have free will. The reason for that is, you cannot punish and reward people in a coherent way without the idea of free will. If a criminal was doomed to be a criminal, if someone who is impoverished was doomed to be impoverished, if someone who is successful is destined to be, and so on, how can we allow these consequences, while pretending we have a fair world, unless we act as if those are all earned? We can't. Hence free will. All of this makes the cogs of the machine move a little more easily, but it unfortunately is bullshit and causes misery, grinding up huge numbers of people( and animals) in the process. You can gaslight people into thinking the world is fair with the concept of free will, while keeping the world unfair.

The only reason we need to keep having the free will conversation is not because resolving it will make the world a more fair place(It won't, since the world will always be unfair). It is so people can stop blaming themselves, and stop hating other people for being the only thing they can possibly be, because those negative mental states will only cause pointless additional suffering.

 

[Photographer Fizzle]

I think the problem of choices and control and free will are solved easily, but the language game we play is what causes confusion, and it causes confusion even for very smart people. It's part of why it's still some kind of contentious issue and why we can't just all plainly agree that there's no free will. (the other part is the idea of free will basically only benefits the powerful)

So that language game is this:

We smuggle in the word "free" into any agency language. So when I say "You made that choice" , what people hear is, "You made that choice freely". "You made that decision" -> "You made that decision freely " And so on. This implies some kind of liability any time we use this agency language.

We obviously make choices and decisions. But do we make them freely, or is this all just utterly rigged? Any examination will admit that it's rigged completely. Nothing you've ever done or will ever do, is free, because it's a product of states you did not create. It's that simple.

And so it's a kind of assumption we make about freedom, and this assumption comes from being groomed into a society that treats you as if you have free will. The reason for that is, you cannot punish and reward people in a coherent way without the idea of free will. If a criminal was doomed to be a criminal, if someone who is impoverished was doomed to be impoverished, if someone who is successful is destined to be, and so on, how can we allow these consequences, while pretending we have a fair world, unless we act as if those are all earned? We can't. Hence free will. All of this makes the cogs of the machine move a little more easily, but it unfortunately is bullshit and causes misery, grinding up huge numbers of people( and animals) in the process. You can gaslight people into thinking the world is fair with the concept of free will, while keeping the world unfair.

The only reason we need to keep having the free will conversation is not because resolving it will make the world a more fair place(It won't, since the world will always be unfair). It is so people can stop blaming themselves, and stop hating other people for being the only thing they can possibly be, because those negative mental states will only cause pointless additional suffering.

Brilliantly said. I can add nothing but my effusive unmitigated support of your post.
Free will is an illusion.