In German it is easier to put that in words. Man kann nicht tiefer rutschen. One cannot fall/ sink deeper. (somewhat translated) One hit rock bottom from social status. David Foster Wallace said something about having such an experience when he joined anonymous alcoholics. I think it was one of his characters in Infinite Jest but a clear reference to his life.
Maybe that is pretty personal and also often from a subjective perspective. Sometimes the shame is bigger on yourself. I for example don't think it is that horrible to join AA. It is probably not funny but it is just an addiction. I even have the feeling alcohol addiction is less stigmatized than for example heroin or more hard drugs. He described it as people who lost fully control of their life and self-respect. Cannot guarantee the latter term.
I read Infinite Jest (or 75% of it) when I was acute suicidal in a clinic for people with psychosis. I am a person with intense feelings of shame especially after my crash from mania. And I could relate so much to the self-hatred of having fallen so low. Usually I am the smartass and people consider me articulate and intelligent. However in this clinic I had to face the fact I lost the grip of reality and was delusional. The shame was even worse after the second one. Because I think there were really people who made fun of me in such a vulnerable situation. In the first psychosis people also made fun of me but gladly the most awful human scum did not notice it.
I think being in a clinic for people with psychosis is more stigmatized than being part of an AA group. However DFW also was in a way higher position compared to me so the fall was from a more privileged position. Personally I am very scared about humiliation and stigmatization in real life. I plan to kill myself when I am dependend on welfare. Moreover I am very anxious to become homeless. I know a girl (I don't have any contact anymore with her) she was homeless for some time. But she was not embarrassed about it because she was delusional like 24/7 and considered it as great to live in the nature. I ask myself what happened to her. She probably lost her phone this is why we have no conncetion anymore.
Psychosis is so stigmatized. I have this diagnosis now since several years and I could accept it that I sometimes struggled with sanity. But damn many people react in a bad way. I had the feeling many girls considered it is impossible to be in a relationship with a person like me. Despite the fact I am articulate and crack jokes which genuinely made them smile etc. I think the stigma was the reason for that. And maybe the fact that I was to that time a little bit socially awkward.
The crash from mania into deep major-depression was insane. The shame and guilt was on an extreme level. Most of it was deeply pathological and rational or logical thinking did not help. I am very obsessed what other people think of me. So the pain I had to endure was from a different dimension. (Combined with severe psychosomatic pain.)
I think some people are probably ashamed because they are suicidal. I am not much ashamed of it. Personally I have the feeling it is rational when you are in situation like me to be suicidal. I cannot understand people who are in similar position and say suicide is no option. (Like my sister.) I told this story quite some times but I just repeat it again. I opened up in my bipolar self-help group about some parts of my suicidality and the reaction was not that empathetic. Many pretended they never in their life had any suicidal thoughts. I digged deeper and asked whether they are genuine about it. And something which confirmed my considerations was replied. Someone said he was too ashamed to admit he was suicidal. Because he does not want to be as the "ultimate loser who does not even want to live". So he equated being suicidal with being the ultimate loser. For me that is pretty irrational thinking. It relates with another thing a competent professional told me. When I was in the clinic I fully openbed up about my suicidal ideation and everyone was pretty scared. After the conversation we took a walk. He told me it is okay to be suicidal. He has never met a major-depressive patient who had no suicidal thoughts. As I said I consider him as very good in seeing through patients. And I kind of believe him. He said many feel too ashamed to admit them and lie about it. I met different people in clinics. I had exactly the same impression. There was a very obese woman who had a crush on me. She was religious and had a similar illness and we went through similar depressive episodes. She affirmed that many of my observations were pretty acurate. However she denied having had any suicidal thought in her life. I think that was a lie and I am quite confident about it. I asked her whether she believes that people who ctb come to hell. She agreed on it. Well I never called her back. And her take on suicidality annoyed me pretty much. She did not know that I am suicidal.
Maybe that was off-topic but I wanted to demonstrate that people consider being suicidal as hitting societal rock bottom. I can understand that because the society often treats us badly. Professionals equated committing suicide with becoming insane in front of me. Other associated committing suicide with sinful and morally inappropriate behavior. But personally I am not that ashamed of it. I am also not ashamed of having depression. But psychosis and bipolar is something I received many igorant/stupid remarks for. But for suicidality I don't feel that ashamed because I consider it as a rational response to my daily horrible life quality.
So a very long thread once again. What is your experience with it? I think it is to a certain point probably subjective. And many of us consider their personal rock bottom as more shameful compared when other people happen the same. I think this is part of a solipsistic experience to perceive ourselves as the centre of the universe.
Maybe that is pretty personal and also often from a subjective perspective. Sometimes the shame is bigger on yourself. I for example don't think it is that horrible to join AA. It is probably not funny but it is just an addiction. I even have the feeling alcohol addiction is less stigmatized than for example heroin or more hard drugs. He described it as people who lost fully control of their life and self-respect. Cannot guarantee the latter term.
I read Infinite Jest (or 75% of it) when I was acute suicidal in a clinic for people with psychosis. I am a person with intense feelings of shame especially after my crash from mania. And I could relate so much to the self-hatred of having fallen so low. Usually I am the smartass and people consider me articulate and intelligent. However in this clinic I had to face the fact I lost the grip of reality and was delusional. The shame was even worse after the second one. Because I think there were really people who made fun of me in such a vulnerable situation. In the first psychosis people also made fun of me but gladly the most awful human scum did not notice it.
I think being in a clinic for people with psychosis is more stigmatized than being part of an AA group. However DFW also was in a way higher position compared to me so the fall was from a more privileged position. Personally I am very scared about humiliation and stigmatization in real life. I plan to kill myself when I am dependend on welfare. Moreover I am very anxious to become homeless. I know a girl (I don't have any contact anymore with her) she was homeless for some time. But she was not embarrassed about it because she was delusional like 24/7 and considered it as great to live in the nature. I ask myself what happened to her. She probably lost her phone this is why we have no conncetion anymore.
Psychosis is so stigmatized. I have this diagnosis now since several years and I could accept it that I sometimes struggled with sanity. But damn many people react in a bad way. I had the feeling many girls considered it is impossible to be in a relationship with a person like me. Despite the fact I am articulate and crack jokes which genuinely made them smile etc. I think the stigma was the reason for that. And maybe the fact that I was to that time a little bit socially awkward.
The crash from mania into deep major-depression was insane. The shame and guilt was on an extreme level. Most of it was deeply pathological and rational or logical thinking did not help. I am very obsessed what other people think of me. So the pain I had to endure was from a different dimension. (Combined with severe psychosomatic pain.)
I think some people are probably ashamed because they are suicidal. I am not much ashamed of it. Personally I have the feeling it is rational when you are in situation like me to be suicidal. I cannot understand people who are in similar position and say suicide is no option. (Like my sister.) I told this story quite some times but I just repeat it again. I opened up in my bipolar self-help group about some parts of my suicidality and the reaction was not that empathetic. Many pretended they never in their life had any suicidal thoughts. I digged deeper and asked whether they are genuine about it. And something which confirmed my considerations was replied. Someone said he was too ashamed to admit he was suicidal. Because he does not want to be as the "ultimate loser who does not even want to live". So he equated being suicidal with being the ultimate loser. For me that is pretty irrational thinking. It relates with another thing a competent professional told me. When I was in the clinic I fully openbed up about my suicidal ideation and everyone was pretty scared. After the conversation we took a walk. He told me it is okay to be suicidal. He has never met a major-depressive patient who had no suicidal thoughts. As I said I consider him as very good in seeing through patients. And I kind of believe him. He said many feel too ashamed to admit them and lie about it. I met different people in clinics. I had exactly the same impression. There was a very obese woman who had a crush on me. She was religious and had a similar illness and we went through similar depressive episodes. She affirmed that many of my observations were pretty acurate. However she denied having had any suicidal thought in her life. I think that was a lie and I am quite confident about it. I asked her whether she believes that people who ctb come to hell. She agreed on it. Well I never called her back. And her take on suicidality annoyed me pretty much. She did not know that I am suicidal.
Maybe that was off-topic but I wanted to demonstrate that people consider being suicidal as hitting societal rock bottom. I can understand that because the society often treats us badly. Professionals equated committing suicide with becoming insane in front of me. Other associated committing suicide with sinful and morally inappropriate behavior. But personally I am not that ashamed of it. I am also not ashamed of having depression. But psychosis and bipolar is something I received many igorant/stupid remarks for. But for suicidality I don't feel that ashamed because I consider it as a rational response to my daily horrible life quality.
So a very long thread once again. What is your experience with it? I think it is to a certain point probably subjective. And many of us consider their personal rock bottom as more shameful compared when other people happen the same. I think this is part of a solipsistic experience to perceive ourselves as the centre of the universe.
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