Discussion Was Samson Suicidal?

[Demian]

Many religious people say that a suicide goes to hell. I believe in God but I think completely differently.

Samson asked God for strength to push back the pillars and died along with all his enemies. So Samson was suicidal and God gave him the strength to do it.

Of course, Samson's life had become a living hell. He messed up and was captured by his enemies, who pierced his eyes, put him in chains and mocked him every day. Then he ctb with God's consent.

What do you think of this point of view?

I use this argument with people and no one can refute me haha.

P.S.: Don't give me "God doesn't exist" or "I don't care about anything religious" or "I don't give a damn", because this thread is for anyone who believes in something, no matter what their belief.

 

[daley]

Perhaps Samson would qualify as a case or martyrdom which could be seen as distinct form suicide in general.
Isn't this similar to a soldier covering a grenade to save his friends?

 

[Demian]

Perhaps Samson would qualify as a case or martyrdom which could be seen as distinct form suicide in general.
Isn't this similar to a soldier covering a grenade to save his friends?

But God could have made it so that Samson didn't die. In this case, it was a "request for martyrdom" which, to me, constitutes suicide.

 

[daley]

But God could have made it so that Samson didn't die. In this case, it was a "request for martyrdom" which, to me, constitutes suicide.

I am not sure I understand. I suppose we need more accurate definitions of martyrdom and suicide, which I cannot think of.
I suppose that I don't agree to your statement a "request for martyrdom" which, to me, constitutes suicide,
although I am not smart enough to reason why.

Couldn't God have also made it so that the grenade landed at a distant location?
Would you say that the soldier committed suicide as well and is not a martyr?

 

[doneforlife]

All religion condemn suicide. The logic is , our days are numbered and we should not do anything to alter that.

I don't know about Samson. But this is a different context altogether. I think his act is a direct outcome of torture. So his suicide is understandable but my analysis says the torturer has to bear the consequences , not Samson .

 

[daley]

The story of Samson is perhaps timely. The capture of Samson happens in Gaza.
I suppose one could say that the pillars of Gaza have been crumbling in the past year.
Perhaps the Israelis who were killed on Oct 7th could be considered as Samson's hair.

 

[Demian]

I am not sure I understand. I suppose we need more accurate definitions of martyrdom and suicide, which I cannot think of.
I suppose that I don't agree to your statement a "request for martyrdom" which, to me, constitutes suicide,
although I am not smart enough to reason why.

Couldn't God have also made it so that the grenade landed at a distant location?
Would you say that the soldier committed suicide as well and is not a martyr?

Samson, in his last moments, prayed to God for the strength to pull down the pillars of the Philistines' temple. However, he expresses that his desire is for revenge: "Let me take vengeance on the Philistines, at least for one of my eyes" (Judges 16:28). This suggests that the act of destroying the temple was not motivated by a desire to save others or by a noble purpose, but rather by the pursuit of personal revenge. Revenge, in this case, makes it difficult to argue that he acted in a spirit of altruism or sacrifice, elements central to the concept of martyrdom.

When comparing Samson to a soldier who sacrifices himself to save friends, there is a clear difference: the soldier sacrifices himself to save the lives of others, while Samson didn't have that kind of goal. He wasn't trying to protect the Israelite people or save anyone specific. His aim was to destroy his enemies and, consequently, also to die in the process. The intention behind the act is fundamental in distinguishing it from a heroic sacrifice.

In the final act, Samson knew that he was going to die by tearing down the temple, and he asked God to give him the strength to do it. This conscious decision to end his own life characterizes a central element of suicide: the self-determination of his own death. He wasn't just willing to die in a combat situation; he took a direct action that resulted in his death. This factor differentiates Samson's act from cases of martyrdom, where death occurs for a greater cause without the person necessarily seeking their own death.

The concept of martyrdom, especially in religious contexts, usually involves a death suffered in defense of a belief or for the protection of others, without the intention of killing oneself directly. Martyrdom implies that a person is forced to die rather than actively seeking it. In Samson's case, he actively sought his own death by pulling down the pillars. Furthermore, he did not die for a higher spiritual or moral cause, but out of a motivation of revenge, which weakens the argument that he was a martyr.

 

[daley]

I googled around a bit. Martyrdom indeed has a more religious connotation. So the soldier would not usually be seen as a martyr.
What I did found was Altruistic Suicide , which I suppose would fit the case of the soldier.

To go back to Samson, your arguments sound pretty good to me.

What I could still try to argue is that Samson's *real* goal was to kill his enemies - not to commit suicide.
The fact that he needed to die in the process is something unfortunate due to circumstances.
I guess that still counts as a suicide - but one might argue that this kind of "instrumental suicide",
where the end goal is not the suicide, but something else, is not "really" a suicide - whatever that means.

I guess the test for an "instrumental suicide" would be - "if possible would the actor try to achieve the end goal without committing suicide?"
If the answer is yes, then it is an "instrumental suicide".

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I don't remember much about the Samson story but we could potentially apply this same logic to Jesus Himself. Did He not commit suicide by knowingly dying to absolve all our sins? Ain't that what everybody says? I'm not equipped to answer this question though. Sometimes I feel like my own suicide would be so good for a lot of people but I also know it's not all true and if anything the net benefit would be very small. Every little bit counts though.

 

[Demian]

I googled around a bit. Martyrdom indeed has a more religious connotation. So the soldier would not usually be seen as a martyr.
What I did found was Altruistic Suicide , which I suppose would fit the case of the soldier.

To go back to Samson, your arguments sound pretty good to me.

What I could still try to argue is that Samson's *real* goal was to kill his enemies - not to commit suicide.
The fact that he needed to die in the process is something unfortunate due to circumstances.
I guess that still counts as a suicide - but one might argue that this kind of "instrumental suicide",
where the end goal is not the suicide, but something else, is not "really" a suicide - whatever that means.

I guess the test for an "instrumental suicide" would be - "if possible would the actor try to achieve the end goal without committing suicide?"
If the answer is yes, then it is an "instrumental suicide".

I understand your point of view, but if Samson wanted to finish off his enemies with his strength, why didn't he do it at once?

I don't remember much about the Samson story but we could potentially apply this same logic to Jesus Himself. Did He not commit suicide by knowingly dying to absolve all our sins? Ain't that what everybody says? I'm not equipped to answer this question though. Sometimes I feel like my own suicide would be so good for a lot of people but I also know it's not all true and if anything the net benefit would be very small. Every little bit counts though.

Yes, I agree with you! It's a form of suicide, but with a purpose, like Samson's, but it's suicide!

There's that song Chop Suey by SOAD. It explores some of that, I think.

 

[daley]

I understand your point of view, but if Samson wanted to finish off his enemies with his strength, why didn't he do it at once?

Hmmm... I suppose that if Samson asked god a favor, he could have asked for some strength or assistance that did
not require his death. So you got a point there.

 

[verdedefome]

So suicide by God?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

So suicide by God?

Wouldn't every suicide be by God if it's "according to His plan"?

 

[verdedefome]

Wouldn't every suicide be by God if it's "according to His plan"?

I guess the christian argument would be that God gave humans free will, and it's up to them whether they follow his plan or not, and commiting suicide would not be part of his plan. But I'm not christian.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I guess the christian argument would be that God gave humans free will, and it's up to them whether they follow his plan or not, and commiting suicide would not be part of his plan. But I'm not christian.

Me neither, I'm agnostic.

 

[athiestjoe]

I was talking about Samson the other day on a really good topic about religions and suicide (you may be curious about it): Religion & Suicide

A new look at this topic though to answer this question with more directness. To address the question directly: what is suicide, and how does it relate to being "suicidal"? Suicide is the intentional act of causing one's own death—voluntarily ending one's life. The term "suicidal" refers to thoughts or actions that are likely to lead to suicide. This concept can be broken down into two main components: (1) intentionality and voluntariness, and (2) that act will or could cause death (causation). Since suicidal does not mean will cause death itself (after all people fail) but here Samson did die so it is somewhat moot.

In the case of Samson, his actions were clearly intentional. The Bible recounts that after being captured by the Philistines, Samson was blinded and imprisoned. When brought to the temple of Dagon to entertain the crowd, he prayed to God for strength one last time. He asked, "O Lord God, please remember me and strengthen me only this once, O God, that I may be avenged on the Philistines for my two eyes" (Judges 16:28,). While one could argue that his actions were voluntary, this raises questions about divine influence. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, does that negate Samson's autonomy? In legal terms, voluntary action can be contested if someone is unduly influenced, which could suggest that God's role had a significant impact on Samson's decision. However, then anyone could make that same argument and I am not convinced that his voluntary nature was removed. It does not make a difference if his 'mail goal' was to kill enemies or himself. Just whether or not his intentional act would have the causal result in killing himself. And here, yes it clearly would and he also was aware of that and did so anyways.

For Samson, based on the definitions provided, one could conclude that he was suicidal. He pushed down the pillars of the temple, knowing that this would lead to his death. The text states, "Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and he leaned his weight against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other. And Samson said, 'Let me die with the Philistines'" (Judges 16:29-30). His actions were deliberate and intentional, resulting in his own demise. Thus, by a strict definition, it can be concluded that Samson was indeed suicidal. Even if it was some divine purpose or whether or not he was a matyr is somewhat immaterial on a definition level of "suicide" "suicidal" so to answer your question directly, yes Samson was suicidal.

Everyone is entitled to whatever they believe about it though and I fully respect however one chooses to interpret it. And I'll leave my own beliefs at the door per your request OP but wanted to give my less than 2 cent response since you asked.

 

[Demian]

I was talking about Samson the other day on a really good topic about religions and suicide (you may be curious about it): Religion & Suicide

A new look at this topic though to answer this question with more directness. To address the question directly: what is suicide, and how does it relate to being "suicidal"? Suicide is the intentional act of causing one's own death—voluntarily ending one's life. The term "suicidal" refers to thoughts or actions that are likely to lead to suicide. This concept can be broken down into two main components: (1) intentionality and voluntariness, and (2) that act will or could cause death (causation). Since suicidal does not mean will cause death itself (after all people fail) but here Samson did die so it is somewhat moot.

In the case of Samson, his actions were clearly intentional. The Bible recounts that after being captured by the Philistines, Samson was blinded and imprisoned. When brought to the temple of Dagon to entertain the crowd, he prayed to God for strength one last time. He asked, "O Lord God, please remember me and strengthen me only this once, O God, that I may be avenged on the Philistines for my two eyes" (Judges 16:28,). While one could argue that his actions were voluntary, this raises questions about divine influence. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, does that negate Samson's autonomy? In legal terms, voluntary action can be contested if someone is unduly influenced, which could suggest that God's role had a significant impact on Samson's decision. However, then anyone could make that same argument and I am not convinced that his voluntary nature was removed. It does not make a difference if his 'mail goal' was to kill enemies or himself. Just whether or not his intentional act would have the causal result in killing himself. And here, yes it clearly would and he also was aware of that and did so anyways.

In Samson's case, based on the definitions provided, one could conclude that he was suicidal. He pushed down the pillars of the temple, knowing that this would lead to his death. The text states, "Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and he leaned his weight against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other. And Samson said, 'Let me die with the Philistines'" (Judges 16:29-30). His actions were deliberate and intentional, resulting in his own demise. Thus, by a strict definition, it can be concluded that Samson was indeed suicidal. Even if it was some divine purpose or whether or not he was a matyr is somewhat immaterial on a definition level of "suicide" "suicidal" so to answer your question directly, yes Samson was suicidal.

Everyone is entitled to whatever they believe about it though and I fully respect however one chooses to interpret it. And I'll leave my own beliefs at the door per your request OP but wanted to give my less than 2 cent response since you asked.

Thanks for the text. This subject seems easy but has a certain complexity.

 

[escape_from_hell]

Why would god mind Samson's act?

Can anyone find the unequivocal Judeo-Christian biblical passages stating suicide is punished with hell, and for that matter those describing hell exactly other than lake of fire in Revelations.
Much of these 'absolute tenets' of these faiths are at best some kind of exegesis. More like "I wish it said that and I speak for god" and then people unfamiliar with the texts repeating it over and over or really stretching a passage. Or because the ideas appear in books and movies.
Anti-choicers do not speak for any God or any reason other than sadism. If god is merciful and caring, the lord would accept suicide as the compassionate choice for the self once the extent of god's 'gift' is realized.
I would even argue "thou shalt not kill" does not even necessarily include the self. It's included along with theft, adultery, respecting god and others, indeed mostly avoiding violating others and being honorable. To kill is to steal the life of another. Spending one's own money is not theft. Sleeping with one's own spouse is not adultery. Taking one's own life is not murder. And you can say I'm not an expert all you want. Sure. But my interpretation makes a lot more sense than everyone claiming the Bible explicitly forbids suicide because 'uh body is a temple n stuff'.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

At least Jesus was suicidal, he was an extrem masochist, keen to die naked on the cross.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I expect there are multiple ways to interpret a lot of religious texts. I agree though- this one makes it seem like God is supportive of the ancient day equivalent of a suicide bomber- if I've got that right? Samson asked God to give them the strength to kill others and himself and, God gave them it. I don't know the bible at all actually. It's a wonder there aren't more Christian extremists with material like that though. God will give you strength to kill your enemies...

God was clearly more responsive in those days. Try asking God to give you a clear sign as to whether they mind you commiting suicide or not. What will you do if nothing happens?

Why would God want us to keep trying to interpret their will from texts written 1000's of years ago? What if we got it/ get it wrong? How is that our fault? Doesn't seem all that fair to punish someone for misinterpreting something that wasn't clear to begin with.

I don't get why it all has to be so cryptic. In my experience with employers, contracts are ambiguous because that way, they can change the rules and exploit or punish you with no come back.

 

[SVEN]

In respect of the original query, it seems he was, as he asked God to die with his enemies. In more general terms it seems he was regarded as one of the heroes of the faith as he is cited in Hebrews 11. So if the Bible is thought of as being "God's Word" it seems he is to be commended for this act.

 

[Demian]

Why would god mind Samson's act?

Can anyone find the unequivocal Judeo-Christian biblical passages stating suicide is punished with hell, and for that matter those describing hell exactly other than lake of fire in Revelations.
Much of these 'absolute tenets' of these faiths are at best some kind of exegesis. More like "I wish it said that and I speak for god" and then people unfamiliar with the texts repeating it over and over or really stretching a passage. Or because the ideas appear in books and movies.
Anti-choicers do not speak for any God or any reason other than sadism. If god is merciful and caring, the lord would accept suicide as the compassionate choice for the self once the extent of god's 'gift' is realized.
I would even argue "thou shalt not kill" does not even necessarily include the self. It's included along with theft, adultery, respecting god and others, indeed mostly avoiding violating others and being honorable. To kill is to steal the life of another. Spending one's own money is not theft. Sleeping with one's own spouse is not adultery. Taking one's own life is not murder. And you can say I'm not an expert all you want. Sure. But my interpretation makes a lot more sense than everyone claiming the Bible explicitly forbids suicide because 'uh body is a temple n stuff'.

I agree with you.

The Hebrew word in the original Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:13) is "lo tirtsach" (לֹ֖א תִּרְצָ֑ח), which is more accurately translated as "you shall not commit murder". Murder, in this context, refers to the intentional and malicious act of taking another person's life unjustly. So the more accurate translation would be "thou shalt not murder", which specifies the prohibition of killing with malicious intent and without moral justification. So it could be argued that the person who commits suicide is not violating the commandment, since they are not taking the life of another person.

The term "murder" carries the idea of intentional malice against another person, while suicide is often linked to a state of despair, anguish or psychological suffering. This difference in context could support the idea that suicide does not technically qualify as murder in the strict sense of the term.

So it's clear to me that suicide is not a sin.

At least Jesus was suicidal, he was an extrem masochist, keen to die naked on the cross.

He died for our sins, not because he wanted to suffer. He suffered out of love for us and for the fallen angels too.

I expect there are multiple ways to interpret a lot of religious texts. I agree though- this one makes it seem like God is supportive of the ancient day equivalent of a suicide bomber- if I've got that right? Samson asked God to give them the strength to kill others and himself and, God gave them it. I don't know the bible at all actually. It's a wonder there aren't more Christian extremists with material like that though. God will give you strength to kill your enemies...

God was clearly more responsive in those days. Try asking God to give you a clear sign as to whether they mind you commiting suicide or not. What will you do if nothing happens?

Why would God want us to keep trying to interpret their will from texts written 1000's of years ago? What if we got it/ get it wrong? How is that our fault? Doesn't seem all that fair to punish someone for misinterpreting something that wasn't clear to begin with.

I don't get why it all has to be so cryptic. In my experience with employers, contracts are ambiguous because that way, they can change the rules and exploit or punish you with no come back.

For me, faith is more about intention and relationship with God, not about deciphering a hidden code or following inflexible rules. I believe that, at the end of the day, what matters is the heart, the love we show for ourselves and others, and the way we seek to live a life of purpose and peace. In short: seek to be a person of love and goodness.

In respect of the original query, it seems he was, as he asked God to die with his enemies. In more general terms it seems he was regarded as one of the heroes of the faith as he is cited in Hebrews 11. So if the Bible is thought of as being "God's Word" it seems he is to be commended for this act.

But Samson did things he shouldn't have done and ended up in that situation. As a result, God allowed him to ctb.