unconsciousness + bag

[WolfgangA]

Thinking if its possible to induce unconsciousness using OTC drugs, any that can & will surely result in unconscious within a very short period of time, preferably within 2/3 mins or less. Most OTC drugs if not all aren't reliable for CTB but perhaps its possible to induce rather quick unconsciousness maybe. It doesn't have to be a single drug, combo's are fine, It doesn't have to be long lasting either, 10-20 minutes or so of unconsciousness maybe? Doesn't necessarily have to be OTC either, prescription meds are fine too anything that's not overly complicated to acquire.
So the idea is to take anti-emetics(with OTC drugs, it will likely have to be OD but in less amount required in comparison to drug only CTB), then the drugs that will induce unconsciousness + put a plastic bag over the head.
Pills + bag method doesn't seem viable because its likely that if you're just in a sleepy state, SI would activate and do its thing, which may and quite likely will result in a failure.
If we can induce unconsciousness rather quickly, perhaps its doable?
It might be scary to some extent but I'm more concerned about SI ruining the process and it is my understanding that SI can't kickin while being unconsciousness. However SI still might kickin before going unconscious, this might be an issue. Perhaps this can be managed to some extent by CNS drugs induced relaxation?

 

[Halo13]

Thinking if its possible to induce unconsciousness using OTC drugs, any that can & will surely result in unconscious within a very short period of time, preferably within 2/3 mins or less. Most OTC drugs if not all aren't reliable for CTB but perhaps its possible to induce rather quick unconsciousness maybe. It doesn't have to be a single drug, combo's are fine, It doesn't have to be long lasting either, 10-20 minutes or so of unconsciousness maybe? Doesn't necessarily have to be OTC either, prescription meds are fine too anything that's not overly complicated to acquire.
So the idea is to take anti-emetics(with OTC drugs, it will likely have to be OD but in less amount required in comparison to drug only CTB), then the drugs that will induce unconsciousness + put a plastic bag over the head.
Pills + bag method doesn't seem viable because its likely that if you're just in a sleepy state, SI would activate and do its thing, which may and quite likely will result in a failure.
If we can induce unconsciousness rather quickly, perhaps its doable?
It might be scary to some extent but I'm more concerned about SI ruining the process and it is my understanding that SI can't kickin while being unconsciousness. However SI still might kickin before going unconscious, this might be an issue. Perhaps this can be managed to some extent by CNS drugs induced relaxation?

I tried something almost exactly as you're describing. Took a bunch of prescription pills, waited for them to kick in and duct taped a garbage bag around my neck. I began to pass out but that SI was so strong, my hands involuntarily started clawing at my neck as I started to choke. I ripped it off. Tried again but ended up just blacking out from the pills, woke up in the hospital. Also, I was screaming gibberish from the pills making me freak out and throwing things everywhere - which is how I was found.

Just my experience - that SI is tough to beat. Finding the exact moment right before you're unconscious would be hard because of the drowsiness and lack of coordination. I do recall reading years ago somewhere to poke a small hole in the bag so you'd slowly die out without the SI kicking in. Didn't work for me, unfortunately.

 

[TiredHorse]

What you're describing was the original Exit Bag approach: take heavy sedation, put the bag over your head with your thumbs holding the elastic drawcord open. When the sedation kicks in, your hands will fall away, the elastic band will snug the bag down around your neck, and with the sedation suppressing both SI and the hypercapnic alarm, you'll asphyxiate before the sedation wears off. It's a good theory.

The problem is that in practice it doesn't work very well. Sedatives will knock you out adequately both to overcome SI and to remove your voluntary motor control adequate for your hands to relax and the bag to seal, but not adequately enough to overcome the hypercapnic alarm. You'll fall unconscious, but before you can asphyxiate your hypercapnic alarm will kick in and you will, even unconscious, tear away the bag. It won't be SI that foils your effort, but biochemical programming. In fact, I strongly suspect hypercapnic alarm is what stymied @Halo13 rather than SI, judging from his description.

This problem, the inadequacy of sedation in suppressing hypercapnic alarm, is what lead to the development of the inert gas approach: a flow of inert gas not only removes air, but flushes away the CO2 that triggers hypercapnic alarm.

 

[Halo13]

What you're describing was the original Exit Bag approach: take heavy sedation, put the bag over your head with your thumbs holding the elastic drawcord open. When the sedation kicks in, your hands will fall away, the elastic band will snug the bag down around your neck, and with the sedation suppressing both SI and the hypercapnic alarm, you'll asphyxiate before the sedation wears off. It's a good theory.

The problem is that in practice it doesn't work very well. Sedatives will knock you out adequately both to overcome SI and to remove your voluntary motor control adequate for your hands to relax and the bag to seal, but not adequately enough to overcome the hypercapnic alarm. You'll fall unconscious, but before you can asphyxiate your hypercapnic alarm will kick in and you will, even unconscious, tear away the bag. It won't be SI that foils your effort, but biochemical programming. In fact, I strongly suspect hypercapnic alarm is what stymied @Halo13 rather than SI, judging from his description.

This problem, the inadequacy of sedation in suppressing hypercapnic alarm, is what lead to the development of the inert gas approach: a flow of inert gas not only removes air, but flushes away the CO2 that triggers hypercapnic alarm.

Thanks so much for explaining that. It was a long time ago - close to 10 years. Likely read it in Final Exit, which is very outdated.

I think the hypercapnic alarm makes sense because it didn't feel like I was trying to survive. I had passed out, can somewhat remember the inside of the bag. It was very fast. Then nothing. Suddenly felt the clawing of my fingers on the duct tape yet it was surreal because as dumb as it may sound, this felt like I was out of my body watching it happen. Out of body experience, perhaps.

Good to know about the inert bag, thanks again.

 

[TiredHorse]

I think the hypercapnic alarm makes sense because it didn't feel like I was trying to survive. I had passed out, can somewhat remember the inside of the bag. It was very fast. Then nothing. Suddenly felt the clawing of my fingers on the duct tape yet it was surreal because as dumb as it may sound, this felt like I was out of my body watching it happen. Out of body experience, perhaps.

1) I'm 99% certain your experience was a textbook case of hypercapnic alarm, not SI. You would do the forum a favor if you wrote up that account and posted it over in the exit bag/inert gas megathread as a cautionary tale. Others here would do well to learn from your experience.

2) Your "out of body" experience doesn't sound dumb at all. In fact, it mirrors my own experiences with SI: I didn't get far enough to experience hypercapnic alarm, but my SI kicking in made me feel like I was two people, one of them desperate to die, the other like a patient adult lifting a fractous child away from his game. In discussing this with a friend who has DID, we discussed a theory that all people have different identities until a few years old, at which point the identities become integrated into a single coadunate identity, but that none of us may be so well integrated in those identities as we might believe. It may be that extreme stress can cause a fracturing of identities --in the case of CTB, where one identity "saves" the whole. It may be that one of your non-dominate identities was working against your dominate identity's wishes, and that you were momentarily subservient to that minor identity's control while maintaining your dominant identity's point of view. Just a thought.

 

[Halo13]

1) I'm 99% certain your experience was a textbook case of hypercapnic alarm, not SI. You would do the forum a favor if you wrote up that account and posted it over in the exit bag/inert gas megathread as a cautionary tale. Others here would do well to learn from your experience.

2) Your "out of body" experience doesn't sound dumb at all. In fact, it mirrors my own experiences with SI: I didn't get far enough to experience hypercapnic alarm, but my SI kicking in made me feel like I was two people, one of them desperate to die, the other like a patient adult lifting a fractous child away from his game. In discussing this with a friend who has DID, we discussed a theory that all people have different identities until a few years old, at which point the identities become integrated into a single coadunate identity, but that none of us may be so well integrated in those identities as we might believe. It may be that extreme stress can cause a fracturing of identities --in the case of CTB, where one identity "saves" the whole. It may be that one of your non-dominate identities was working against your dominate identity's wishes, and that you were momentarily subservient to that minor identity's control while maintaining your dominant identity's point of view. Just a thought.

1. I will definitely do that. I joined here for like minded folks and to hopefully help those who could learn from my experiences. I really should sit down and write down each one someday. I have experience with CO, overdoses, slitting my wrists...guess I do have something to offer, for once. I'm no expert. Just been trying to catch the bus persistently for almost two decades.

2. I think both things are possible. I have DID as well.

 

[BridgeJumper]

What should I use to seal the bag so theres no way I can take it off? Maybe I should handcuff my hands? Can you self handcuff or do you need another person?

 

[TiredHorse]

What should I use to seal the bag so theres no way I can take it off? Maybe I should handcuff my hands? Can you self handcuff or do you need another person?

You cannot seal the bag: you need to leave the seal only snug around your neck, with elastic, not tight, so that in-flowing inert gas can carry away the CO2. That's half the reason for using inert gas in the first place.

As for restraining your hands, I have no idea for a method, and not a clue whether it would even be effective.

 

[dyingtodie]

As for restraining your hands, squeeze a whole lot of crazy gorilla glue onto your hand right after you affix the bag, and then give yourself a proper handshake behind your back, congratulating yourself for a mission accomplished. I bet after 30 seconds of the glue binding you'd have to have the arms of a gorilla to pry your hands apart.

I sincerely hope this does not help anyone as that would only give me a reason to live, which would be quite inconvenient.

 

[spanishguy22]

Thanks so much for explaining that. It was a long time ago - close to 10 years. Likely read it in Final Exit, which is very outdated.

I think the hypercapnic alarm makes sense because it didn't feel like I was trying to survive. I had passed out, can somewhat remember the inside of the bag. It was very fast. Then nothing. Suddenly felt the clawing of my fingers on the duct tape yet it was surreal because as dumb as it may sound, this felt like I was out of my body watching it happen. Out of body experience, perhaps.

Good to know about the inert bag, thanks again.

Now I get it. That's exactly what kept me from not dying in a bag. It wasn't SI I really wanted to do it but that other mechanism fucked me.

 

[TiredHorse]

For all its apparent simplicity, the mechanism of exit bag/inert gas is actually surprisingly complex. It isn't poisoning, like CO, and it isn't simply replacing air with anoxic inert gas as an asphyxiant, it's also flushing away the CO2 to prevent hypercapnic alarm. That's why every detail of the standard method is important --purging air from the bag, using an elastic (not fixed) drawcord, using a bag (as a reservoir) instead of a mask, hyperventilating to clear your lungs of both air and CO2, etc.

The mental obstacle of SI is difficult enough to overcome, but hypercapnic alarm is a biological obstacle and, if you don't address it, it will foil you every time, without fail.

 

[WolfgangA]

What you're describing was the original Exit Bag approach: take heavy sedation, put the bag over your head with your thumbs holding the elastic drawcord open. When the sedation kicks in, your hands will fall away, the elastic band will snug the bag down around your neck, and with the sedation suppressing both SI and the hypercapnic alarm, you'll asphyxiate before the sedation wears off. It's a good theory.

The problem is that in practice it doesn't work very well. Sedatives will knock you out adequately both to overcome SI and to remove your voluntary motor control adequate for your hands to relax and the bag to seal, but not adequately enough to overcome the hypercapnic alarm. You'll fall unconscious, but before you can asphyxiate your hypercapnic alarm will kick in and you will, even unconscious, tear away the bag. It won't be SI that foils your effort, but biochemical programming. In fact, I strongly suspect hypercapnic alarm is what stymied @Halo13 rather than SI, judging from his description.

This problem, the inadequacy of sedation in suppressing hypercapnic alarm, is what lead to the development of the inert gas approach: a flow of inert gas not only removes air, but flushes away the CO2 that triggers hypercapnic alarm.

If sedation or in this scenerio, being unconscious doesn't help with hypercapnic alarm, what about something that totally disables muscle functions and perhaps puts you into coma??

How about this updated version ... short acting drug induced unconsciousness + something to create muscle paralysis + bag?

 

[TiredHorse]

How about this updated version ... short acting drug induced unconsciousness + something to create muscle paralysis + bag?

I could see that being a possibility, the trick is finding a drug that is 1) available, 2) effective, and 3) takes effect in the right amount of time. Hypercapnic alarm will hit you relatively quickly. Any drug that will cause paralysis in that short amount of time risks incapacitating you before you can get the bag deployed. If it takes too long --not just after the sedative has taken effect, so the bag closes, but also after the air in the bag runs out-- hypercapnic alarm will foil your attempt before the drug kicks.

Then there are the uncertainties of drug interactions between the sedative and the paralytic, as well as the variabilities between individual metabolisms. It's a complex bit of chemistry, and while an interesting theory, I doubt it could be tuned well enough in practice to be useful.

I'd stick with the basic, eb/N2 apparatus for the actual mechanism for suicide, allowing the inert gas to do the job as intended and as proven effective. Adding a sedative to that to help mute SI would be the only drug addition I would consider.

 

[WolfgangA]

It seems to be a complex one, yes.
Anyone know of a muscle relaxant that has higher chance paralysis on OD?

Perhaps hypercapnic alarm issue can be resolved in another way ...
Protecting the plastic bag with something thick'ish? Not sure what would work though, maybe fabric of sort like pillow case?
And add in some muscle relaxants to help you relax more and to reduce the stress you can put on the pillow case protecting the bag?
Afterwards maybe restrain your wrist with Velcro tape which is easy to use and available almost anywhere. With muscle relaxant and being unconscious ... even if/when hypercapnic alarm kicks in, I think its quite likely you won't be able to get free or do whats needed. The adhesive tape restraints should hold.

Again updating the method: anti-emetic + short acting drug induced unconsciousness + muscle relaxant + bag protected by something "claw/scratch proof" + (optional) hand restraint with Velcro tape or similar.

 

[TiredHorse]

As I see it, a huge part of the reason to use an exit bag is because it offers a relatively peaceful exit. If you're not concerned with that, and can accept the horrendous discomfort/trauma of hypercapnic alarm, why not simply hang yourself? It's much simpler, much less expensive, no more prone to SI than any other method, and no less pleasant than dying as you try and claw your way out of a plastic bag.

Or you could just use inert gas with your exit bag.

 

[WolfgangA]

As I see it, a huge part of the reason to use an exit bag is because it offers a relatively peaceful exit. If you're not concerned with that, and can accept the horrendous discomfort/trauma of hypercapnic alarm, why not simply hang yourself? It's much simpler, much less expensive, no more prone to SI than any other method, and no less pleasant than dying as you try and claw your way out of a plastic bag.

Or you could just use inert gas with your exit bag.

While being unconscious I don't know what/how would you feel/process the discomfort that comes from asphyxiation and/or trying to get free. So this is unknown territory but what is known is a unconscious person doesn't feel as much as a conscious person (which is highly debatable and situational but I'll take it as it is, that is .. unconscious people feels less, I'll take that as somewhat peaceful I think). I'm just trying find something thats easy-access and easy-to-do.

I'm not too keen on full suspension, I've read if not done right you could hang there with a broken neck for a while until it actually happens, even the idea of it sounds horrifying.

Anyone know of a OTC or prescription drug that can make you unconscious on OD (with a higher probability) or perhaps when mixed with another drug or alcohol? Just not something like thiopental or N, something thats relatively easy to acquire.

 

[Halo13]

While being unconscious I don't know what/how would you feel/process the discomfort that comes from asphyxiation and/or trying to get free. So this is unknown territory but what is known is a unconscious person doesn't feel as much as a conscious person (which is highly debatable and situational but I'll take it as it is, that is .. unconscious people feels less, I'll take that as somewhat peaceful I think). I'm just trying find something thats easy-access and easy-to-do.

I'm not too keen on full suspension, I've read if not done right you could hang there with a broken neck for a while until it actually happens, even the idea of it sounds horrifying.

Anyone know of a OTC or prescription drug that can make you unconscious on OD (with a higher probability) or perhaps when mixed with another drug or alcohol? Just not something like thiopental or N, something thats relatively easy to acquire.

Might be possible to get something like Valium or muscle relaxers from a doctor. Can't say many OTC meds have helped me in that area.

 

[WolfgangA]

According to this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6618119 Midazolam is more potent than Diazapam. But these meds quite often result in a deep sleep state too. How to figureout the approximate dose to induce unconsciousness (with a high probability)
..

 

[Deleted member 1768]

Thinking if its possible to induce unconsciousness using OTC drugs, any that can & will surely result in unconscious within a very short period of time, preferably within 2/3 mins or less. Most OTC drugs if not all aren't reliable for CTB but perhaps its possible to induce rather quick unconsciousness maybe. It doesn't have to be a single drug, combo's are fine, It doesn't have to be long lasting either, 10-20 minutes or so of unconsciousness maybe? Doesn't necessarily have to be OTC either, prescription meds are fine too anything that's not overly complicated to acquire.
So the idea is to take anti-emetics(with OTC drugs, it will likely have to be OD but in less amount required in comparison to drug only CTB), then the drugs that will induce unconsciousness + put a plastic bag over the head.
Pills + bag method doesn't seem viable because its likely that if you're just in a sleepy state, SI would activate and do its thing, which may and quite likely will result in a failure.
If we can induce unconsciousness rather quickly, perhaps its doable?
It might be scary to some extent but I'm more concerned about SI ruining the process and it is my understanding that SI can't kickin while being unconsciousness. However SI still might kickin before going unconscious, this might be an issue. Perhaps this can be managed to some extent by CNS drugs induced relaxation?

Please read this first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bag
The bodies response to carbon dioxide build up with this method is severe panic even when unconscious, and you will remove the bag. What works with inert gas fails miserably without it.

 

[WolfgangA]

Please read this first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bag
The bodies response to carbon dioxide build up with this method is severe panic even when unconscious, and you will remove the bag. What works with inert gas fails miserably without it.

I think what you're describing has been mentioned already, scroll up, check post #3
"hypercapnic alarm" Issue's been discussed already and we've been discussing ways to resolve it.

 

[offshoreserver]

1. I will definitely do that. I joined here for like minded folks and to hopefully help those who could learn from my experiences. I really should sit down and write down each one someday. I have experience with CO, overdoses, slitting my wrists...guess I do have something to offer, for once. I'm no expert. Just been trying to catch the bus persistently for almost two decades.

2. I think both things are possible. I have DID as well.

i found out about the exit bag when i was 16 and became obsessed, but had no way to carry it out. lately i have given up on it and am starting to gravitate toward sn far more, probably because i am a different person than i was then, literally. i connect with many of your posts and that makes sense knowing that you have did because so do i. the psychiatric system has failed me for a decade and i've only been actively trying to ctb for around 7 years but i think a lot of people could benefit greatly from knowing about your experiences... if you have did you probably have similar issues to me with regards to purpose or usefulness but i think you have a lot to offer despite not knowing you well. you have a good presence. it's not easy but everyone is here for a reason

 

[Deleted member 1768]

I think what you're describing has been mentioned already, scroll up, check post #3
"hypercapnic alarm" Issue's been discussed already and we've been discussing ways to resolve it.

Whoops...thank you Wolf. I do not always see particularly well...blush...my only excuse...ahem...sorry guys.

 

[Halo13]

i found out about the exit bag when i was 16 and became obsessed, but had no way to carry it out. lately i have given up on it and am starting to gravitate toward sn far more, probably because i am a different person than i was then, literally. i connect with many of your posts and that makes sense knowing that you have did because so do i. the psychiatric system has failed me for a decade and i've only been actively trying to ctb for around 7 years but i think a lot of people could benefit greatly from knowing about your experiences... if you have did you probably have similar issues to me with regards to purpose or usefulness but i think you have a lot to offer despite not knowing you well. you have a good presence. it's not easy but everyone is here for a reason

Thanks. I was first institutionalized at age 13 for a suicide attempt. Wasn't until I was around 20 I was finally diagnosed correctly with DID after incorrect diagnosises of bipolar, ADD, even schizophrenia. Can't say it magically got better from there on. The psychiatric care I've received for 20 years has been such a waste of time in my case as I've been hellbent on ctb for so long. I really did try everything to "recover" but with DID, everything becomes complicated. It is interesting how the cliché "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" is more like "psychiatry is a temporary solution to a permanent problem" (with suicidal ideation). Reoccurring suicidal ideation is like a sickness in of itself because for some, it never goes away.

I know very well for others, it does go away and it is not the answer. That is good. But not true in my case. I'll keep this brief so as not to interrupt the thread. My PM is always open - for you or anyone else :)

 

[WolfgangA]

Whoops...thank you Wolf. I do not always see particularly well...blush...my only excuse...ahem...sorry guys.

Thats alright. Any help is appreciated.