Venting Traumatic brain injuries and dementia disprove the existence of a soul.

[Darkover]

My definition of a soul is an immaterial entity, separate from our physical bodies, that will be granted a place in the afterlife (Heaven, Hell, purgatory, or any other immaterial realm that our physical bodies cannot access, or transferred into another entity to be "reborn"). The key part of this is that the soul is "immaterial", meaning that physical occurrences do not impact the soul. For example, death does not damage the soul, because the soul is "immortal" and when the physical body dies, the soul is transferred into another form (whether this other form is an afterlife or a rebirth or anything else is irrelevant). We can call this the "immateriality" requirement.

The other requirement for a soul is that it is a repository of who you are. This can include your memories, personality, emotional regulation, or if you have anything else you think should have been included please feel free to comment. I will summarize these traits into the "personality" requirement.

So this brings us to the concept of brain damage. Brain damage is when you incur an injury that damages your brain. Depending on where this injury is located, you can lose your emotions, memories, personality, or any combination thereof. The classic case is the case of Phineas Gage. However, Gage was hardly the first or only person to experience this, you can find many others.

If the soul is an immaterial repository of your personality, then why is it able to be damaged by something material like brain damage? Brain damage is not the only way either--tumors, drugs, alcohol, electricity, oxygen deprivation and even normal aging can also damage your brain and alter your personality.

If the soul is not immaterial, then why is it able to survive death? Why is a minor damage able to damage your personality, but not a huge damage like the entire organ decomposing?

If the soul does not involve your personality, then in what meaningful way is it "you"?

Traumatic brain injuries can cause memory loss, personality change and decreased cognitive functioning. This indicates the brain as the center of our consciousness and not a soul.

If a soul, a spirit animating the body, existed, it would continue its function regardless of damage to the brain. Instead we see a direct correspondence between the brain and most of the functions we think of as "us". Again this indicates a human machine with the brain as the cpu, not an invisible spirit

Besides the lack of any evidence for a soul, it's pretty easy to make a human appear soulless by damaging specific parts of brain matter. The brain drives consciousness and our experience of being human, once it dies so does the concept of us.

 

[Edistrying]

.... Wow. I used to be so logical but a few years ago this thing with a "soul" got strong on my mind and It was a little anwkard, now reading this I question myself again hahah thank you.

 

[Forever Sleep]

How do we know for certain that a person with brain damage isn't still collecting data in their brains/souls and thinking about it? Is it assumed we have 'lost' that person to dementia or a severe stroke or brain damage because they are no longer able to express themselves like before? How are we so sure that 'they' aren't there anymore though? I'd agree that damage to the brain can certainly affect someone's character and behaviour but, how do we really know whether they've changed that much inside to them?

I definitely agree with the definition of the soul here. I think people do associate it with personality. Rather than just simply a life force that can exist without a body. I don't know that I really do believe in the soul. It's probably more that I want to.

One idea I find hard to get my head around is the death of a baby. Presumably their parents want to believe that infant had a soul that will be taken off to a better place. But- do they think of that soul as a blank piece of paper? A spirit with absolutely no personality? That seems kind of cold. I imagine they prefer to think of that soul as being a bit further developed with traits of who they would have been if they had survived. Which sort of suggests pre-destiny and also works independently of the brain- they died before they were able to use it.

The other thing I struggle with is thinking about the afterlife. At one point, I hoped I would reunite with my deceased family members after I died. But, I was 3 when my Mum died. So- how does that work out? Would she still want to meet me now that I'm older than she was when she died or, would she want her child back? Do we remain at the mental age we were when we died? Do we then develop further in an afterlife? If we're reincarnated, we're back to square one again with very few people remembering who they were before.

Really, I think the idea of the soul is more of a romantic notion. Not that it can't be true but similarly to religion, when you start to question things, it becomes difficult to come up with workable answers.

 

[Darkover]

How do we know for certain that a person with brain damage isn't still collecting data in their brains/souls and thinking about it? Is it assumed we have 'lost' that person to dementia or a severe stroke or brain damage because they are no longer able to express themselves like before? How are we so sure that 'they' aren't there anymore though? I'd agree that damage to the brain can certainly affect someone's character and behaviour but, how do we really know whether they've changed that much inside to them?

has someone living with a brain injury i can tell you are just a machine made up of atoms once these atoms break apart we become damaged to the point of no longer being able to function correctly just like any other machine in this universe, i've changed beyond belief after getting a brain injury i won't go into detail but there's no way we are anything but a machine

 

[sugarb]

My definition of a soul is an immaterial entity, separate from our physical bodies, that will be granted a place in the afterlife (Heaven, Hell, purgatory, or any other immaterial realm that our physical bodies cannot access, or transferred into another entity to be "reborn"). The key part of this is that the soul is "immaterial", meaning that physical occurrences do not impact the soul. For example, death does not damage the soul, because the soul is "immortal" and when the physical body dies, the soul is transferred into another form (whether this other form is an afterlife or a rebirth or anything else is irrelevant). We can call this the "immateriality" requirement.

The other requirement for a soul is that it is a repository of who you are. This can include your memories, personality, emotional regulation, or if you have anything else you think should have been included please feel free to comment. I will summarize these traits into the "personality" requirement.

So this brings us to the concept of brain damage. Brain damage is when you incur an injury that damages your brain. Depending on where this injury is located, you can lose your emotions, memories, personality, or any combination thereof. The classic case is the case of Phineas Gage. However, Gage was hardly the first or only person to experience this, you can find many others.

If the soul is an immaterial repository of your personality, then why is it able to be damaged by something material like brain damage? Brain damage is not the only way either--tumors, drugs, alcohol, electricity, oxygen deprivation and even normal aging can also damage your brain and alter your personality.

If the soul is not immaterial, then why is it able to survive death? Why is a minor damage able to damage your personality, but not a huge damage like the entire organ decomposing?

If the soul does not involve your personality, then in what meaningful way is it "you"?

Traumatic brain injuries can cause memory loss, personality change and decreased cognitive functioning. This indicates the brain as the center of our consciousness and not a soul.

If a soul, a spirit animating the body, existed, it would continue its function regardless of damage to the brain. Instead we see a direct correspondence between the brain and most of the functions we think of as "us". Again this indicates a human machine with the brain as the cpu, not an invisible spirit

Besides the lack of any evidence for a soul, it's pretty easy to make a human appear soulless by damaging specific parts of brain matter. The brain drives consciousness and our experience of being human, once it dies so does the concept of us.

The idea of an immaterial soul can coexist with the reality of brain damage and dementia if the brain is just a system the soul uses.

Imagine you're playing a game. For the character to do anything, you (usually) need to give the controller input. If you want to move the character left, you'd have to move your finger left on the controller, and so forth.

The specifics will change based on the player, the character, and the controller. Some players might not have fingers, some characters might not have the same abilities as others, and some controllers have different layouts. Your controller might break mid-playthrough and force you to continue with input lag or other issues. In-game things affecting the character might interfere with how it receives input from the controller.

So: material reality is the game, the body is the game avatar, the brain is the controller, and the soul is the player using the controller.

It's not a perfect analogy in a few ways (controllers aren't generally tied to one specific game) but you get the point.

 

[Darkover]

The idea of an immaterial soul can coexist with the reality of brain damage and dementia if the brain is just a system the soul uses.

Imagine you're playing a game. For the character to do anything, you (usually) need to give the controller input. If you want to move the character left, you'd have to move your finger left on the controller, and so forth.

The specifics will change based on the player, the character, and the controller. Some players might not have fingers, some characters might not have the same abilities as others, and some controllers have different layouts. Your controller might break mid-playthrough and force you to continue with input lag or other issues. In-game things affecting the character might interfere with how it receives input from the controller.

So: material reality is the game, the body is the game avatar, the brain is the controller, and the soul is the player using the controller.

It's not a perfect analogy in a few ways (controllers aren't generally tied to one specific game) but you get the point.

How would a soul communicate with a brain considering we've never detected any such signals

From a scientific perspective, the brain is considered the central control and processing unit for the body's functions. The brain receives and integrates sensory information, coordinates voluntary and involuntary physical responses, and is the seat of higher cognitive functions like thinking, memory, and emotion.

While some spiritual or religious traditions posit the existence of a soul that transcends the physical body, mainstream science does not have evidence to support the idea that such a non-physical entity directly interacts with or communicates with the body's cells. The mechanisms of how consciousness and subjective experience arise from neural activity remain an active area of research and philosophical debate.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Still the longing for something more than sheer philosophical materialism will never completely go away. At least for me.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

The idea of an immaterial soul can coexist with the reality of brain damage and dementia if the brain is just a system the soul uses.

Imagine you're playing a game. For the character to do anything, you (usually) need to give the controller input. If you want to move the character left, you'd have to move your finger left on the controller, and so forth.

The specifics will change based on the player, the character, and the controller. Some players might not have fingers, some characters might not have the same abilities as others, and some controllers have different layouts. Your controller might break mid-playthrough and force you to continue with input lag or other issues. In-game things affecting the character might interfere with how it receives input from the controller.

So: material reality is the game, the body is the game avatar, the brain is the controller, and the soul is the player using the controller.

It's not a perfect analogy in a few ways (controllers aren't generally tied to one specific game) but you get the point.

There is no evidence for that or any evidence for any soul.

There is no soul . A human is a brain a machine. After death is non-existence forever. All science points to that . And I'm glad because non-existence means no pain no suffering ever

What r the details the power source .
? Where are the souls why are they hiding .

How , who created souls why for what reason what is the mechanism the details? There is no evidence for any of that

Why is a soul needed since they've showed the brain can create all thinking memory consciousness etc ?

I'll tell why like many things it's a lie to control others

There is no soul a human is just a brain a machine

Everyone has video cameras on their phone. Where are the videos of ghosts souls Spirits . How come scientists with all the equipment like MRI etc never found a single piece of evidence for any soul afterlife reincarnation god magic anything, computer sumulation, anything supernatural?

People are more willing to believe stories with no evidence than what their eyes and experience and testing tells them.

Example . A human is born and doesn't know anything. At one year old the human can't tell thats them in the mirror. By 18 months the brain finally figured out that's then in the mirror.

Other animals have consciousness too are sentient like rats fish monkeys cats dogs apes . The brain is very similar in all vertebrates. Every neuron is the same in a mouse fly or human it's a neuron a brain cell

 

[Forever Sleep]

has someone living with a brain injury i can tell you are just a machine made up of atoms once these atoms break apart we become damaged to the point of no longer being able to function correctly just like any other machine in this universe, i've changed beyond belief after getting a brain injury i won't go into detail but there's no way we are anything but a machine

I feel like that is the cruellest part- when people are aware that they have lost a part of themselves.

 

[sugarb]

Still the longing for something more than sheer philosophical materialism will never completely go away. At least for me.

Same. At the end of the day, I'll always believe in something more. Materialism both cultural and philosophical is to be blunt super lame

 

[rozeske]

Why does all these repetitive posts feel like you desperately trying to convince yourself about the idea of non existence of a soul, a God, an afterlife or religion but still failing to come to terms with it yourself

 

[Darkover]

Why does all these repetitive posts

tell me what's repetitive about this post and my previous post?, show examples because i am finding hard to see whats repetitive about this post

 

[rozeske]

tell me what's repetitive about this post and my previous post?, show examples because i am finding hard to see whats repetitive about this post

You missed my point but never mind.

 

[sugarb]

There is no evidence for that or any soul.

What r the details the power source .
? Where are the souls why are they hiding .

How , who created souls why for what reason what is the mechanism the details? There is no evidence for any of that

Why is a soul needed since they've showed the brain can create all thinking memory consciousness etc ?

I'll tell why like many things it's a lie to control others

There is no soul a human is just a brain a machine

Everyone has video cameras on their phone. Where are the videos of ghosts souls Spirits . How come scientists with all the equipment like MRI etc never found a single piece of evidence for any soul afterlife reincarnation god magic anything, computer sumulation, anything supernatural?

Physical evidence cannot prove or disprove the extra-physical. It's literally impossible since the extra-physical exists entirely out of perceivable reality. A perfect simulation would be undetectable. also lmao at you assuming I believe in ghosts or that they could be recorded

As such there's exactly as much evidence for heaven or hell as there is for us to simply cease to exist. You believe the latter simply because you think it sounds more realistic, and whether you like it or not it's just a less interesting kind of baseless delusion.

The only logical answer is "I don't know".

How would a soul communicate with a brain considering we've never detected any such signals

From a scientific perspective, the brain is considered the central control and processing unit for the body's functions. The brain receives and integrates sensory information, coordinates voluntary and involuntary physical responses, and is the seat of higher cognitive functions like thinking, memory, and emotion.

While some spiritual or religious traditions posit the existence of a soul that transcends the physical body, mainstream science does not have evidence to support the idea that such a non-physical entity directly interacts with or communicates with the body's cells. The mechanisms of how consciousness and subjective experience arise from neural activity remain an active area of research and philosophical debate.

Via extra-physical means, presumably. No way to know within the bounds of science.

edit: they're to it's

 

[GuessWhosBack]

The other requirement for a soul is that it is a repository of who you are. This can include your memories, personality, emotional regulation, or if you have anything else you think should have been included please feel free to comment. I will summarize these traits into the "personality" requirement.

Then yes, a soul as per your definition does not exist, or it would have to be mutable.

From reading your posts you come across as intelligent, so I will tell you this:

Metaphysical questions are futile to ask and ponder about, because you lack the logical tools to arrive at any meaningful conclusion. No one can, or ever will, provide the answers you seek.

You might enjoy a horror game called SOMA, that deals with topics very similar, if not the same, to your interest. Strongly suggest you looking into it.

Physical evidence cannot prove or disprove the extra-physical. It's literally impossible since the extra-physical exists entirely out of perceivable reality. A perfect simulation would be undetectable. also lmao at you assuming I believe in ghosts or that they could be recorded

As such there's exactly as much evidence for heaven or hell as there is for us to simply cease to exist. You believe the latter simply because you think it sounds more realistic, and whether you like it or not they're just a less interesting kind of baseless delusion.

The only logical answer is "I don't know".

Via extra-physical means, presumably. No way to know within the bounds of science.

Perfect.

 

[sugarb]

Then yes, a soul as per your definition does not exist, or it would have to be mutable.

From reading your posts you come across as intelligent, so I will tell you this:

Metaphysical questions are futile to ask and ponder about, because you lack the logical tools to arrive at any meaningful conclusion. No one can, or ever will, provide the answers you seek.

You might enjoy a horror game called SOMA, that deals with topics very similar, if not the same, to your interest. Strongly suggest you looking into it.

Perfect.

SOMA looks good, gonna try it after I finish Control ^^

 

[GuessWhosBack]

SOMA looks good, gonna try it after I finish Control ^^

Great! Be careful of spoilers, the game's story is it's strong point and it would be a shame.

 

[Relic]

Really, I think the idea of the soul is more of a romantic notion. Not that it can't be true but similarly to religion, when you start to question things, it becomes difficult to come up with workable answers.

There's a school of thought that in the universe, nothing is created, nothing is destroyed. Everything just changes shape. Also, everything (living) that exists stores, develops and processes information. Expansion happens on different levels, what we are able to see and learn is just a tiny fraction of it. So far, humans can extract some of the data. Like DNA, chemical/biological processes, etc., and what they stand for or entail. Ultimately, what anyone decides to call something, does not matter that much. In the end it's just energy, with or without the biomass.

Religion is a remnant from the time of the lower levels of development, at some point it was repurposed as a tool of manipulation. Science has a potential to turn into something similar, as the tunnel vision and corruption in the establishment increases.

Why does all these repetitive posts feel like you desperately trying to convince yourself about the idea of non existence of a soul, a God, an afterlife or religion but still failing to come to terms with it yourself

Could be because of fear and uncertainty, and even if there was some hard evidence, it still might be not enough. Most likely, these questions never go away.

 

[hawkshorizon]

Still the longing for something more than sheer philosophical materialism will never completely go away. At least for me.

Yeah, same here. Intellectually, I can sit back and reason rationally that there is no empirical evidence demonstrating there's a soul, and so conclude there's no such thing.

But that little kid that was raised to believe in God and the hereafter still resides in me and wants to believe there is soul and that I'm more than a carnal machine. There's no reconciling the two, and it's frankly frustrating and demoralizing.