Venting Toxic Masculinity

[SmollMushroom]

Do you feel a victim of toxic masculinity? I do.

As you may deduce by my name and profile picture, I don't really identify as an alpha male gigachad or whatever term kids use these days.

But I feel that people are way more attracted by that sort of males, and if you don't act as them you are considered either wrong or at least inferior.
Why is that so? Is it because people need a sort of feeling of protection?
I mean I could understand if you are looking for that in a partner, but I feel that it doesn't stop there.

It impacted me at 360°. I feel like even my family expected me to act differently.
Not to mention strangers.

Like, I have the feeling that the only getaway for not being an alpha and still being accepted by society is being a genius or having lots of money.
Like Todd Howard, he was in the chess club, but who's laughing now, uh? (Ok maybe bad example).

But what if idk, you are just a non alpha. Why is it such a problem for society? Why are all males expected to be muscular, brave, protective, leaders and whatnot?

And I think toxic masculinity impacted me even on this forum.
I'm pretty sure that there's a good amount of people in here that kept their distances from me just because of my name/avatar.
They probably assumed that I'm a weak, or a whimp.
And they would be right, but still, is that such a big issue?

Maybe I should have done it like that guy who is always in general chat, with the profile picture of a seasoned hot Hollywood actor and who speaks like Clint Eastwood. Not a coincidence he is the most popular in there.

But truth is that from small mushrooms come big advices, and if you can't see that it's your loss UwU
#ihatesociety

 

[avaruus]

I do, i feel so embrassaed about crying, liking cute things etc.

Also here in FInland there is a mandatory military service that every male has to go, i went only for 2 weeks because i couldn't take it anymore and got out of there with a "unstable mental health" as the reason.

And here in Finland military service is viewed as super honorable (because of our past wars) and there is even a saying that "the army turns boy into a man"
Even my military "roommates" ( i don't know the correct word) were laughing and poking fun at me for leaving.

This was in 2022 august, the same time i joined this forum. I was super suicidal because of that, and i wanted to kill myself right then, but unfortunately i couldn't find a suitable method.
Now, i have found that and i'm going out as soon as my SN arrives.

But i do hate the word toxic "masculinity" because it implies that only men enforce it. Most women, especially mothers will teach their sons this way of thinking and behaviour. Maybe men are more likely to show it, like verbally and such. But women will definetly play the other 50% part of the problem, they may not say that you're a weak and a pussy for when a man cries, but they do judge as much as men.
And their judgement will show in other ways such as being a mother who teaches these men these ways of thinking, like i already said.

I think it's just humans being really controllive of society/tribe, we needed a strict social behaviour hierarchy when the times were bad. For example, if a lion attacks the tribe, the men just can't curl up in a fetal position and cry, there has to be someone to make and do the hard things so the tribe/village/whatever group of humans it was, can survive.

So in a way i understand why that kind of toxicity exists, but it's still harmful and we should learn to decode this instinct.

Fuck toxicity.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

I'm Male, and despise toxic masculinity.
I think most toxic males are alpha males, and I hate them.
They are mostly arrogant, bullying, narcissistic, entitled fucktards who treat women like shit.
A lot of women end up hating all men because of this.

 

[R_N]

Well I feel different than many here I guess. But it depends what is seen as toxic. I am against any kind of abuse at least.

I think stoicism has its benefits and I despise emotions. I don't see any benefit to them except making me weak and vulnerable to hostile society.

When I was younger I was very emotional, I could cry rivers just listening to a song. I also despise ever being in "love", it was a waste. As I grow older I appreciate putting my emotions in check more and more. I don't see any benefit in indulging emotions.

 

[Mafaalu]

I do aswell.

I was mildly bullied in school and marked as an outsider, which gave me a huge problems with socializing with people and more in the long run.
The thing is men are born with no value and if you don't like the values that society sets for men and you go earn them you are an outcast.
I have always wanted to be vulnerable and let out my emotions but because of the pressure of society I had struggle to even cry for myself because it is seen as weak men need to be strong and shit like that, I never wanted to be that type of person. If you don't have career you are useless, that's what society tells you.

Just like my profile suggests I want to do cute things, cry in someones lap and do all sorts of vulnerable things like that, but I feel embarassed and ashamed because that is seeing negatively in society.
Of course as a man I do like competition if it's not harmful because it can be fun but in this society it's all about survival where winners and losers exist.

No wonder toxic masculinity exists with the system we have, with winners and losers - who wants to be a loser and live in constant existential crisis?
No wonder andrew tate is a thing now adays what's the alternative? Depression and exploitation.
This society and it's system is faulty as why toxic masculinity exists and is the better alternative. Capitalism that teaches us to exploit each other and I say fuck that.
And they wonder why suicide rate on male young man is so high and why so many of em' are addicted to pornography. It's all exploitation I tell ya.
And then feminists fall in love with that type of toxic man and then laugh about the suicide rate of young men because of their experience with 0.?% of men, I am truly displeased with this society.


I can only agree to #ihatesociety.

Well I feel different than many here I guess. But it depends what is seen as toxic. I am against any kind of abuse at least.

I think stoicism has its benefits and I despise emotions. I don't see any benefit to them except making me weak and vulnerable to hostile society.

When I was younger I was very emotional, I could cry rivers just listening to a song. I also despise ever being in "love", it was a waste. As I grow older I appreciate putting my emotions in check more and more. I don't see any benefit in indulging emotions.

You are not thinking that different if you think about it, why do you choose to put your emotions in check more and more, and believe me or not I have also experienced that having recently cut ties to my so to be called "friends", who clearly in retro didn't give a fuck about me and I appreciated to embrace the lone path that I myself have decided to take.

But you should question yourself why is that? Because society punishes you for being vulnerable, for being human. Just like you said no benefit in making yourself weak and vulnerable to "hostile society". "hostile society" is a big or even the sole reason this is how you feel and have given up on emotions.

I for my part wish to be able to be vulnerable to trusted one's if I ever find someone like that, a true and rare connection to another one.

 

[Archness]

If you're not well above-average you're a failure.

Before, the average man was deemed "successful". Now you need to be above like 70-80% of other men to be such. Then again and again society shouts, "Just do better!".

Fuck you, you do better if it's that easy, if I can just do better, society should too. When you're a failure if you're not the cream of the crop, then why's society upset men just give up, suicide, etc.

#ihatesociety

 

[Someonewhotypes]

what about guys like kpop idols? They tend to be have some feminine features at least in my opinion yet they still have lots of fans who adore them not only for the talent but definitely for the way they look too. They're not what most would consider manly
So what are people actually attracted to...it's the old saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder at least imo.

 

[AllCatsAreGrey]

I'm nonbinary - assigned male at birth. A lot of what everyone is sharing is a part of that for me. When bullied in grade school I once had the realization, "oh, they're bullying me because they think I'm a boy." Since then I've distanced myself from directing their standards onto myself (not always easy - society sucks).

I often hear people say things like you have to be a certain way or else people aren't attracted to you. I agree that's a societal trend, but it's not true. People are attracted to all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons.

A part of being a victim of toxic masculinity is internalizing it.

 

[AshClouds]

Do you feel a victim of toxic masculinity? I do.

Hey, the internet agrees with you. Unless if you're a rapist creep (like Andrew Tate) or someone with a tiny member who's trying to overcompensate (like Andrew Tate), you'd agree that machoism is indeed toxic.

Just watch this video, you'll feel better about not being a macho mysogynistic moron:

 

[SmollMushroom]

Hey, the internet agrees with you. Unless if you're a rapist creep (like Andrew Tate) or someone with a tiny member who's trying to overcompensate (like Andrew Tate), you'd agree that machoism is indeed toxic.

Just watch this video, you'll feel better about not being a macho mysogynistic moron:

Brilliant video, thanks for sharing it. It explains exactly what I was talking about.
I saw some responses I didn't really agree to and the motives can be found on this video.
One of the comments I don't really agree to:

I think most toxic males are alpha males, and I hate them.
They are mostly arrogant, bullying, narcissistic, entitled fucktards who treat women like shit.
A lot of women end up hating all men because of this.

I don't think alpha males are a problem, because being an alpha male per se can be seen as a man who's just very masculine, and masculinity per se is not the issue.
The issue is that most of men aren't alpha males, they are alpha male wannabe. They are the toxic ones.
Their obsession with being/becoming "alpha" brings them to act as you described (bullying others, being narcissistic and act as if they were superior) and to follow the "rules" listed in the video, because they think that is what they need to do to be considered masculine and alpha. To quote from the video: the fact that we (in this case the alpha wannabes) have all these harmful and toxic ideas about what masculinity should be is the main issue here.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

Brilliant video, thanks for sharing it. It explains exactly what I was talking about.
I saw some responses I didn't really agree to and the motives can be found on this video.
One of the comments I don't really agree to:



I don't think alpha males are a problem, because being an alpha male per se can be seen as a man who's just very masculine, and masculinity per se is not the issue.
The issue is that most of men aren't alpha males, they are alpha male wannabe. They are the toxic ones.
Their obsession with being/becoming "alpha" brings them to act as you described (bullying others, being narcissistic and act as if they were superior) and to follow the "rules" listed in the video, because they think that is what they need to do to be considered masculine and alpha. To quote from the video: the fact that we (in this case the alpha wannabes) have all these harmful and toxic ideas about what masculinity should be is the main issue here.

Yes, I think these wannabe types are weak - minded and pathetic.
Real men are completely unlike the Andrew tate types.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Sorry- not male but I've certainly felt the influence of imposed femininity in life. I've never really even wanted to comply. I did for a bit when I had this crazy crush on someone but even with effort- I didn't measure up. I guess I feel more at ease with it all now though because I'm not even wanting to impress anyone now or fit in.

It's sad though- that society and some individuals in particular will treat you entirely differently according to what you pretend to be. I lost a lot of weight at one stage. At the time, I was working in retail and this one particular customer became all chatty. She had worked in fashion. When I put the weight back on, she ignored me entirely! Lol. Some people just feel disgusted by others who don't comply.

Really though- that's their own small mindedness. Ultimately- do you even want to be around people who have such shallow notions of worth? If they pretended to like you the same as they would the alpha male/perfect female- would that really be enough? They would be faking it after all. I've always loved this quote by Dr Seuss:

'Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.'

I feel like there are people out there who will love and accept you for who you are. It's just whether you want to go to the effort of finding them. I think sometimes though- it's down to whether the person will accept that their match may not comply to idealised feminine/masculine ideals also. Not to say you are an incel but I sometimes wonder- is it because literally no one will give them a chance? Or, is it because they still go for the typical slim, beautiful, girly female and get all annoyed when they don't reciprocate? That goes the same for women too. I'm sure we are biased towards certain men.

 

[moondazed]

I don't feel like a victim, but I'm just stubborn and refuse to call myself one. Good men are hurt more by toxic masculinity than is acknowledged, it's really sad. You don't need to be big and buff to call yourself a man.

I like the idea of positive masculinity. I struggled with my identity a bit a few years ago. I was wondering if I really was enby, and in ways I do feel that way, but I am comfortable in my masculinity just as much as I am in my femininity. I felt since I don't particularly suffer from body dysmorphia (I also enjoy not having to shave my face all the time), I'd do positive masculinity better justice being a comfortable and confident sensitive man.

I don't know. Gender roles are simply oppressive, for both men, women, cis, and trans people. I understand gender has real world implication regardless of whether we believe it's a legitimate construct or not, but we really have no need for them this day in age.

Like, I have the feeling that the only getaway for not being an alpha and still being accepted by society is being a genius or having lots of money.

By the way if this helps, science has already debunked the "alpha male" myth. It's just not true and stemmed from a gross misinterpretation of a study of pack animals in captivity. Here's an article on the subject:

Is the Alpha Wolf Idea a Myth?

The idea that wolf packs are led by a merciless dictator, or alpha wolf, comes from old studies of captive wolves. In the wild, wolf packs are simply families

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Pluto]

what about guys like kpop idols?

This is a good question. There were equivalently androgynous superstars in my youth (e.g. Prince) and there have routinely been others since (Hanson, Justin Bieber, etc.). One explanation is that such artists' core market is overexcited teenage girls. For that demographic, the very notion of having a 'crush' on a celebrity is a novel developmental milestone, hence initially being attracted to men who are presented as safe and gentle. The other factor is that when fame/fortune/wealth is concerned, this is effectively a form of power/authority and therefore exudes some traditional masculinity. I think it's best not to be distracted by it.

More broadly, sensitive people often get admonished for having something wrong with them. It is an issue that affects women, too. The counterargument you need to know is that intellectuals, peacemakers, artists, healers, environmentalists, etc. have played a critical role in history, and if anything we need far, far more of them. Indeed, modern society can truly do without try-hard tough guys.

Bullying exacerbates the whole situation if not managed effectively. This happens when people with sadistic inclinations deliberately cause the torment of sensitive people because it is 'fun' to get a reaction while inflicting serious trauma. People have to be pretty sick to reason like this in the first place, but plenty are, especially in the confused and hypercompetitive environment of high school.

That said, beware the perils of adopting any sort of distorted gender role. Society used to have extremely narrow gender roles (many cultures still do) and there was long a need to grant people more freedom, hence the social movements of the later 20th century. But in the process of pushing change, all sorts of distortions can emerge. Toxic masculinity (that is, the ugly and narcissistic fixation on domination, which is a trait that can be displayed by people of any gender) is one of several harmful results of this shake-up. For us, the challenge is to go beyond societal conditioning and be true to ourselves.

The final point I'll make is to beware the perils of letting bullies assign you an identity as a 'beta'. Further, I daresay that I'm also far more critical of 'body positivity'. I can only speak for myself here. I absolutely hated being treated worse for a less-than-athletic physique and it affected every aspect of my life. Yet I had no vision to actually embrace my own masculine side. In my youth, I regret not chasing physical fitness and financial independence from day dot, regardless of the fact that I am sensitive and caring in my views of others. Putting it all together, I am better described as gender neutral, but was convinced that I had to defend weird identity representing a polar opposite of toxic masculinity. If this applies, you can learn from my mistake.

 

[duwangJEff]

I don't feel like a victim of toxic masculinity per se, but I see a lot of issues that it causes. Me personally, I've always been skinny, quiet, and shy. I played video games my whole life. I was always kind of a loser, and got no attention from girls.

Two years ago, I started going to the gym a lot, and I've built up a nice physique, and can throw some heavy weights around. I am quite a bit more "alpha" in that I'm more confident in myself and direct when speaking. But I'm still very quiet and shy. I have a very hard time with girls, and I still suffer from most of the same issues I had before. I don't think I changed much, aside from becoming physically stronger.

Not sure where I was going with all that. I agree with some amount of "toxic masculinity", and I do tend to look down on other men who are weaker or more feminine. But I also think a lot of the "alpha" men are faking it, or simply lack self awareness. I think I'm just too self conscious and self aware. If the slightest thing didn't make me doubt myself, I'd probably be an alpha as well