Thought Experiment: Being Consulted Before Existing

[BoulderSoWhat]

What do you think?

Imagine, somehow, you were consulted before becoming an existent being, about whether you wanted to exist. This is meant to consider "existence" very broadly. I certainly have no idea wtf the universe is, if there's multiverses, multiple multiverses, or other incomprehensible structures beyond what we've been able to figure out so far in cosmology and physics.

Given any structure of existing, being human or something else, if you were consulted about whether or not you'd like to exist in some way and were able to rationally consider pros or cons, would this quasi-existent consultant "state of being" still include suffering in some degree?

Very broadly, I'm just going to pull this stat for consideration: "Around 6 million children under 15 die per year. That's around 16,000 deaths every day, or 11 every minute."

Child and Infant Mortality

Child mortality remains one of the world’s largest problems and is a painful reminder of work yet to be done. With global data on where, when, and how child deaths occur, we can accelerate efforts to prevent them.

ourworldindata.org

So in the case of being consulted about whether or not you would like to exist in a world where this is a fact, to make a rational choice about assessing the pros and cons of dying, maybe in a horrific unspeakable way without hardly having even started being alive, this "pre-existent mind" would need to accurately know what it is to live, die, and suffer as an existent life form. Assuming "knowing what it's like" works in some way similar to how we have mirror neurons to feel, sympathize, or empathize with what another person is going through, would this still be a form of suffering? To be able to consider, understand, and reject "actually existing" because you acutely know what that experience is going to be like, or could be like, would be "better" than just beginning to exist without choice, but would this state still not be "good" to experience? Would being consulted at all before being born still be something you would rather not experience? It just pushes back the predicament right? You weren't consulted about whether you wanted to be a "pre-existent thing" that could be consulted about "actually existing."

Well okay but what if you were a "pre-pre-existent thing..." Yeah no, the problem just goes on ad infinitum. :(

Let me know if any of this makes remotely some sense. If not I'll just be quiet lol.

 

[AbusedInnocent]

I'm not sure what the nature of this pre-existent being is and what its cognitive abilities are exactly.

But asking someone if they'd like to be brought into existence is like going to someone's door and offering them "torture as a service".

Do you believe that existence can be better than nonexistence?

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

I'm not sure what the nature of this pre-existent being is and what its cognitive abilities are exactly.

But asking someone if they'd like to be brought into existence is like going to someone's door and offering them "torture as a service".

Do you believe that existence can be better than nonexistence?

Agreed.

Weirdly though, even if we found a universe or could design one that was "utopia", whatever that means, let's just skip to the part where we say it's an existence without suffering, it still couldn't "be better" than non-existence.

When I didn't exist (talking like I remember it like it was yesterday lol), nothing concerned me, right? Nothing could be better for me, because I was in no state of perceiving that anything else was going on besides me not existing.

I guess, only if I was in this ill-definable "pre-existent state", and I swiped left on all universes for 10 eternities, before finding one where maybe I thought, "oh, okay being that computer thing that just crunches data all day, that's more interesting to me than being whatever I am now.", only then could something ever be "better" for me, because I would have the capacity to long for something that isn't currently happening.

But certainly after existing, that non-existence state can always be preferable, weighed against living through a life with even just a fraction of the shit that happens to humans in this world.

 

[Blurry_Buildings]

If I did not exist physically but had an experience-less adult brain floating around in a void, I would not know myself what a physical existance would be like. If it was explained/ conveyed to me that most other people, despite the suffering, enjoyed their existance and found meaning in it, I would say yes and ask to exist. Even if I didn't know anything about it myself, it would seem more interesting than non existance, and I would have no experiences of my own to say otherwise.

Even if I knew nothing at all about existance in the physical world and was given no information other than that it is only temporary, I'd probably say yes anyways, since I'd have no reason to say no.

Now that I am alive I realize my spirtual self must've been a shortsighted dumbass, much like my current self.

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

If I did not exist physically but had an experience-less adult brain floating around in a void, I would not know myself what a physical existance would be like. If it was explained/ conveyed to me that most other people, despite the suffering, enjoyed their existance and found meaning in it, I would say yes and ask to exist. Even if I didn't know anything about it myself, it would seem more interesting than non existance, and I would have no experiences of my own to say otherwise.

Even if I knew nothing at all about existance in the physical world and was given no information other than that it is only temporary, I'd probably say yes anyways, since I'd have no reason to say no.

Now that I am alive I realize my spirtual self must've been a shortsighted dumbass, much like my current self.

That's a valid response I think. Yeah, depending on what capacity this void-mind-thing would be able to understand and imagine what it would be getting itself into by saying "yes, I'll try that," some void-minds might say yes, others no. Assuming somehow that multiple void-minds would somehow have differing unique cognitive processes to arrive at different conclusions.

If your void-mind didn't know any better, constrained by the nature of its existence, then it's not too much different than humans now making dumb and irrational choices when they're just kids. But even when not kids anymore, plenty of humans still make dumb and irrational choices up until they die, probably me included in that group hahaha.

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

Ah shit, maybe the experience of life now IS the consultation phase. We are just imagining and considering one scenario of what could possibly happen to us. Fuck I hope I say no when I'm done thinking!!!

(Also, not trying to joke about suffering or make light of situations. This is just my dark absurd cosmic sense of humor)

The Boltzmann Brain - Higgs Centre for Theoretical Physics

boltzmann brain; part of halloween project 2021

higgs.ph.ed.ac.uk

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's difficult though isn't it? Kind of depends on whether you believe in destiny for a start and, how much information you would be given- eg. you're going to be involved in a rock climbing accident aged 23 that will severely change your life... but now you have the foresight to avoid it...

I guess it would be more broad than that... we have this life opportunity available- to parents with this health record, this bank balance and situated here. You have a (whatever) percentage of developing these illnesses. The crime rate in that area is (whatever). People from that background have a (whatever) percentage probability of this or that.

I wonder if anyone would come here if they knew they have a 50% chance of contracting cancer at some point (apparently,) isn't it 1 in 4 will have a mental illness at some point? 100% will die at some point. If you're a woman, 1 in 3 chance of experiencing physical or sexual violence. It would be like reading the small print on those medical leaflets you get that scare the shit out of you!

In fact, I'm not sure how they could sell the good points- chocolate and rainbows are nice. Too much chocolate will make you fat and possibly give you diabetes though. Rainbows need rain. Stay out in the rain too much and you risk hypothermia. WTF would anyone agree to come here?!! Maybe if they knew they were going to be rich and famous.

Thing is though- if we're not alive at that point and presumably, have never lived- otherwise, we'd know what it was like- how would we actually know what they were talking about? It's a weird concept to get your head around.

Still, I feel like the only reason you'd risk it is if non existence was somehow worse! Presumably we'd be conscious if we're able to make such a big decision as whether to come alive. Maybe if it was like some hospital waiting room with nothing happening for billions of years, you'd agree to it just to break up the monotony. Or- if you were promised some reward for getting through that particular life. Or, you were just plain lied to. They only showed you the very best case scenario.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

There are people who insist on driving stick shift or competitively playing Super Smash Bros Melee. This means that even when presented with the facts about suffering and torture, there are still many who would willingly choose difficult things just for the thrill of the challenge and the chance to seem cool just because they can do something difficult.

 

[qw3rty259]

To be able to consider, understand, and reject "actually existing" because you acutely know what that experience is going to be like, or could be like, would be "better" than just beginning to exist without choice, but would this state still not be "good" to experience? Would being consulted at all before being born still be something you would rather not experience?

Nah, in real life when i hear and think about tough situations of others i can feel compassion and be sad that this is a reality but in the end I'm glad that it's not happening to me. The same would be with that imaginable pre-existing state. I would just think "damn, I'm so lucky to have the ability to choose, bb losers"

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

It's difficult though isn't it? Kind of depends on whether you believe in destiny for a start and, how much information you would be given- eg. you're going to be involved in a rock climbing accident aged 23 that will severely change your life... but now you have the foresight to avoid it...

I guess it would be more broad than that... we have this life opportunity available- to parents with this health record, this bank balance and situated here. You have a (whatever) percentage of developing these illnesses. The crime rate in that area is (whatever). People from that background have a (whatever) percentage probability of this or that.

I wonder if anyone would come here if they knew they have a 50% chance of contracting cancer at some point (apparently,) isn't it 1 in 4 will have a mental illness at some point? 100% will die at some point. If you're a woman, 1 in 3 chance of experiencing physical or sexual violence. It would be like reading the small print on those medical leaflets you get that scare the shit out of you!

In fact, I'm not sure how they could sell the good points- chocolate and rainbows are nice. Too much chocolate will make you fat and possibly give you diabetes though. Rainbows need rain. Stay out in the rain too much and you risk hypothermia. WTF would anyone agree to come here?!! Maybe if they knew they were going to be rich and famous.

Thing is though- if we're not alive at that point and presumably, have never lived- otherwise, we'd know what it was like- how would we actually know what they were talking about? It's a weird concept to get your head around.

Still, I feel like the only reason you'd risk it is if non existence was somehow worse! Presumably we'd be conscious if we're able to make such a big decision as whether to come alive. Maybe if it was like some hospital waiting room with nothing happening for billions of years, you'd agree to it just to break up the monotony. Or- if you were promised some reward for getting through that particular life. Or, you were just plain lied to. They only showed you the very best case scenario.

It is tough to wrap our heads around for sure! Another thing I think of too, is that saying yes to existing here in any way is also accepting risks of doing harm to others. Has anyone lived their life without intentionally or accidentally hurting another person? Whether getting in a fight, arguing and lashing out, or other common day to day human social "harms", letting alone all major atrocities that happen everyday.

Or for another angle, here's another stat I wanted to pull:
"In 2022, 817 women died of maternal causes in the United States, compared with 1,205 in 2021, 861 in 2020, 754 in 2019, and 658 in 2018 (2). The maternal mortality rate for 2022 decreased to 22.3 deaths per 100,000 live births, compared with a rate of 32.9 in 2021 (Figure 1 and Table)."

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2022/maternal-mortality-rates-2022.pdf

Let's say all the information I was given in my pre-existent state was that there was X% chance that me being born would cause complications killing the mother. Just that in consideration alone, how could I justify risking killing another person just for the chance of chocolates and rainbows??

Nah, in real life when i hear and think about tough situations of others i can feel compassion and be sad that this is a reality but in the end I'm glad that it's not happening to me. The same would be with that imaginable pre-existing state. I would just think "damn, I'm so lucky to have the ability to choose, bb losers"

I think that's valid. Even though there might be some degree of suffering (or discomfort if that's a more suitable word) by considering the pain of another person, it's just normal to also have the personal sense of relief to have the choice to not experience that pain. A few months ago I remember reading a news story, a couple was standing in line to board a cruise for a vacation. A van driver lost control for some reason and the van drove into the crowd waiting to board the cruise. The wife died. The man was at the hospital but was still unconscious when the story was released.

Another story that happened near me involved construction workers just minding their own business on the turnpike. A truck lost control and slammed into the workers. I can't remember if they all died, but I think I remember one worker had just started and was pretty young.

Just so much senseless shit happens on earth all the time, a gross understatement for sure. Couldn't the universe have done something else instead? If it just stuck to doing whatever with stars, planets, blackholes, virtual particles, and whatever happens on the scale of zeptoseconds, things could've stayed just like that without bringing conscious beings who experience pain and suffering in the equation.

 

[qw3rty259]

Assuming "knowing what it's like" works in some way similar to how we have mirror neurons to feel, sympathize, or empathize with what another person is going through, would this still be a form of suffering?

Would being consulted at all before being born still be something you would rather not experience?

Btw, do you "suffer" from reading about the history of humankind, its biology, etc.? I don't think so. You can feel a lot of things, but it's not suffering... (maybe only if you really hate school, idk... lol). I'd say that the process of "counseling" would be interesting, if anything. You suffer only when you participate in it (in actual life).

 

[qw3rty259]

Even though there might be some degree of suffering (or discomfort if that's a more suitable word) by considering the pain of another person, it's just normal to also have the personal sense of relief to have the choice to not experience that pain. A few months ago I remember reading a news story, a couple was standing in line to board a cruise for a vacation. A van driver lost control for some reason and the van drove into the crowd waiting to board the cruise. The wife died. The man was at the hospital but was still unconscious when the story was released.

Another story that happened near me involved construction workers just minding their own business on the turnpike. A truck lost control and slammed into the workers. I can't remember if they all died, but I think I remember one worker had just started and was pretty young.

Sorry, didn't notice your reply. I guess it depends on the person. Well, maybe it's highly subjective, idk, but I can't imagine myself really feeling mental pain because of random people. Sadness, dissapointment, anger - yes, but it's not pain. I think this could only happen if something bad happened to my loved ones. And if you take that imaginable counseling, you would be completely detached from real life, because you are not human yet at that point and don't have any connections, no one to care for. You just learn about the world those people trying to get you into. So I imagine myself to just be disappointed and disgusted by humankind and the whole concept of life, that's all, lmao. So I don't see anything bad in being asked whether I want to live.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Never would I want to exist under any circumstances.

First of all pain can be constant and unbearable. Why would anyone want that ability to have a brain that can suffer long lasting unbearable pain for no objective reason.

I guess most people are fooled into not realizing something extremely horrible can happen to them anyone any day. And that there is no reason to work so hard just to be under such threats

 

[kiki <3]

this might sound silly but i can almost recall being... nothing, if that makes sense? when i think about the day of my birth, i can almost recall the period when i did not exist yet. it's really weird, and could be my own way of coping with the nothingness that comes after you pass, i mean at least i personally believe that there is nothing on the other end. so being in a state of nothingness is not something i would pass as that is however it does depend a lot on the circumstances. maybe i would be given a better life? maybe i wouldn't be such a fuck up? who knows. it is certainly a very interesting thing to think about.

 

[uniqueusername4]

There is a youtube video where Lili Reinhart is on Jay Shetty's show and talks about this concept. She thinks that if a celestial being asked her if she wanted to come to earth and experience every emotion possible to the human experience that she would've said yes.

I feel like I would've said no unless I was completely naive to what suffering feels like? If it turns out I agreed to this, I'm gonna be pissed.

 

[Davey40210]

I think they key here is if you can unalive easily. To me the logical choice would always be yes, if you have the option to step out.

But that's in practice not so easy I found. SI is a b*tch.

Would prob still do it though.

 

[sserafim]

If I were consulted before existing, I definitely wouldn't have agreed to come here to this prison planet where people have to work to survive and pay to exist. However, unfortunately, because I was born without my consent, I was brought here without a say in the matter. This is fundamentally unfair to me and I hate how I was robbed out of a choice and how my parents made this choice for me. People say that life is about the experience but I don't see how this experience justifies or makes up for the fact that life is suffering. I would have preferred to never have existed or experienced anything at all

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

There is a youtube video where Lili Reinhart is on Jay Shetty's show and talks about this concept. She thinks that if a celestial being asked her if she wanted to come to earth and experience every emotion possible to the human experience that she would've said yes.

I feel like I would've said no unless I was completely naive to what suffering feels like? If it turns out I agreed to this, I'm gonna be pissed.

If it turns out I agreed to this before I began to exist, after I die I'm going to kick my nonexistent ass for this lol!