Ironweed

Ironweed

Nauseated.
Nov 9, 2019
320
I'm not even sure I can truly describe the context, but the novel is about a lonely old man who a series of bizarre and transcendent experiences. The book is very odd, and this passage is from The Treatise on the Steppenwolf Which...eh.

This was one of the significant earmarks of his life.

Another was that he was numbered among the suicides. And
here it must be said that to call suicides only those who actually
destroy themselves is false. Among these, indeed, there are many
who in a sense are suicides only by accident and in whose being
suicide has no necessary place. Among the common run of men
there are many of little personality and stamped with no deep
impress of fate, who find their end in suicide without belonging on
that account to the type of the suicide by inclination; while on the
other hand, of those who are to be counted as suicides by the very
nature of their beings are many, perhaps a majority, who never in
fact lay hands on themselves. The "suicide," and Harry was one,
need not necessarily live in a peculiarly close relationship to death.
One may do this without being a suicide. What is peculiar to the
suicide is that his ego, rightly or wrongly, is felt to be an extremely
dangerous, dubious, and doomed germ of nature; that he is always
in his own eyes exposed to an extraordinary risk, as though he stood
with the slightest foothold on the peak of a crag whence a slight push
from without or an instant's weakness from within suffices to
precipitate him into the void. The line of fate in the case of these men
is marked by the belief they have that suicide is their most probable
manner of death. It might be presumed that such temperaments,
which usually manifest themselves in early youth and persist through
life, show a singular defect of vital force. On the contrary, among the
"suicides" are to be found unusually tenacious and eager and also
hardy natures. But just as there are those who at the least
indisposition develop a fever, so do those whom we call suicides,
and who are always very emotional and sensitive, develop at the
least shock the notion of suicide. Had we a science with the courage
and authority to concern itself with mankind, instead of with the
mechanism merely of vital phenomena, had we something of the
nature of an anthropology, or a psychology, these matters of fact
would be familiar to every one.

What was said above on the subject of suicides touches
obviously nothing but the surface. It is psychology, and, therefore,
partly physics. Metaphysically considered, the matter has a different
and a much clearer aspect. In this aspect suicides present
themselves as those who are overtaken by the sense of guilt
inherent in individuals, those souls that find the aim of life not in the
perfecting and molding of the self, but in liberating themselves by
going back to the mother, back to God, back to the all. Many of these
natures are wholly incapable of ever having recourse to real suicide,
because they have a profound consciousness of the sin of doing so.
For us they are suicides nonetheless; for they see death and not life
as the releaser. They are ready to cast themselves away in
surrender, to be extinguished and to go back to the beginning.

As every strength may become a weakness (and under some
circumstances must) so, on the contrary, may the typical suicide find
a strength and a support in his apparent weakness. Indeed, he does
so more often than not. The case of Harry, the Steppenwolf, is one of
these. As thousands of his like do, he found consolation and support,
and not merely the melancholy play of youthful fancy, in the idea that
the way to death was open to him at any moment. It is true that with
him, as with all men of his kind, every shock, every pain, every
untoward predicament at once called forth the wish to find an escape
in death. By degrees, however, he fashioned for himself out of this
tendency a philosophy that was actually serviceable to life. He
gained strength through familiarity with the thought that the
emergency exit stood always open, and became curious, too, to
taste his suffering to the dregs. If it went too badly with him he could
feel sometimes with a grim malicious pleasure: "I am curious to see
all the same just how much a man can endure. If the limit of what is
bearable is reached, I have only to open the door to escape." There
are a great many suicides to whom this thought imparts an
uncommon strength.

On the other hand, all suicides have the responsibility of fighting
against the temptation of suicide. Every one of them knows very well
in some corner of his soul that suicide, though a way out, is rather a
mean and shabby one, and that it is nobler and finer to be
conquered by life than to fall by one's own hand. Knowing this, with a
morbid conscience whose source is much the same as that of the
militant conscience of so-called self-contented persons, the majority
of suicides are left to a protracted struggle against their temptation.
They struggle as the kleptomaniac against his own vice. The
Steppenwolf was not unfamiliar with this struggle. He had engaged
in it with many a change of weapons. Finally, at the age of fortyseven
or thereabouts, a happy and not unhumorous idea came to
him from which he often derived some amusement. He appointed his
fiftieth birthday as the day on which he might allow himself to take
his own life. On this day, according to his mood, so he agreed with
himself, it should be open to him to employ the emergency exit or
not. Let happen to him what might, illness, poverty, suffering and
bitterness, there was a time-limit. It could not extend beyond these
few years, months, days whose number daily diminished. And in fact
he bore much adversity, which previously would have cost him
severer and longer tortures and shaken him perhaps to the roots of
his being, very much more easily. When for any reason it went
particularly badly with him, when peculiar pains and penalties were
added to the desolateness and loneliness and savagery of his life,
he could say to his tormentors: "Only wait, two years and I am your
master." And with this he cherished the thought of the morning of his
fiftieth birthday. Letters of congratulation would arrive, while he,
relying on his razor, took leave of all his pains and closed the door
behind him. Then gout in the joints, depression of spirits, and all
pains of head and body could look for another victim.
 
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NSA

NSA

Your friendly neighborhood agent
Feb 21, 2022
262
The first half sounds like a long-winded version of "death by anxiety". The whole "so afraid to die you never live" thing.

The second half sounds like something I've done, and probably a lot of other people on here: "ok, I'm 20 now. Let's see if I can make it to 25, just because. If I can suck it up till then, I can die with a clear conscience".

Also a bit of the "suicide is the coward's way out, live if only to give a middle finger to the world" thinking in there too. Another tactic I've tried. I'm clearly still here, so it worked?

Sounds like a pretty good bookšŸ¤”
 
olkf

olkf

I smile by your disgrace
Jan 21, 2022
161
Admittedly, I could not read because of small attention span. A good read is Catch & release by Mark Kingwell
 
Seiba

Seiba

Arcanist
Jun 13, 2021
491
"On the other hand, all suicides have the responsibility of fighting
against the temptation of suicide. Every one of them knows very well
in some corner of his soul that suicide, though a way out, is rather a
mean and shabby one, and that it is nobler and finer to be
conquered by life than to fall by one's own hand."

I don't really agree with this much at all. I don't think being conquered by life is all that special. Yes, suicide is "mean and shabby" in the sense if we had a button for not having long term emotional or physical problems we would press it. Most of us are rather pushed to the end of suicide after years of the problems persisting. There's also no long term harm in being dead, it just removes a relationship between boredom, enjoyment, and displeasure. I don't really see it as a problem to die by your own hand, and I would say it at least points to a certain emotional sensitivity and consideration to be willing to leave at a time of your own choosing. I'm not really in the mood to respond to much else of it, but this I could manage.
 
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Of The Universe

Of The Universe

Specialist
Dec 31, 2021
382
We gotta read all that shit?? WTF! Ha ha j/k!
Who's the dude in the avatar? The first incel?
 
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L

Lostandlooking

In limbo
Jul 23, 2020
447
I've read this book a couple of years ago.

"I am curious to see
all the same just how much a man can endure. If the limit of what is
bearable is reached, I have only to open the door to escape."


This passage stuck with me and I copied it into my notes. Which I would read from time to time. Much of what he describes applies to me. But not everything. I remain standing at the edge of the cliff, indecisive. I've reached points where life has become completely unbearable. Still, I wasn't able to commit suicide. For some years I was able to keep going because I also thought: Well, let's see how much a man (or a woman) can endure. This no longer holds any real significance for me. It seems a man can endure a lot. And then some more. There seems to be no end to this suffering. Still, If I ever manage to do it the suffering will be over.
 
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Sides

Sides

Member
Dec 28, 2021
35
I love Hermann Hesse, and much of what he wrote here applies very much to me as well.

For decades, I lived my life with reckless abandon, using huge amounts of drugs and indulging in other dangerous behavior without thought for the consequences, thinking to myself, "Oh well, fuck it, if I live I live, and if I die I die. I'm fine either way. Either alternative was acceptable to me, because I had always at least entertained the possibility, and at times actively planned to commit suicide. So if it happened by accident, by taking too many pills or crashing my car, what did I care? What did I have to lose?

What I failed to fully appreciate was that there was always a third possibility lurking in the background: the possibility or even probability that I would fail to die, but instead survive and live on in some miserable excuse for life, with a terribly damaged body and/or brain, physically or mentally unable even to carry out my plans for suicide that would enable me to CTB and escape all the pain and misery of this world.

Sadly, because of my congestive heart failure and resulting heart bypass operation, pneumonia and collapsed lung and subsequent thoracentesis, and other physical problems and lack of mobility, it begins to look every day like the third possibility has come true, and I am trapped here in this body without having the physical ability to successfully CTB. The worst of all fates.

There's still hope for me, one way or another, but I have to admit things are looking more grim every day.
 
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J

jandek

Down in a Mirror
Feb 19, 2022
149
It's a good book, although very ambiguous. If I recall correctly, it's possible that all the "events" of the novel take place entirely within the protagonist's mind. So, I wonder whose perspective the "Treatise" is supposed to represent. Is it Haller's, in some sense, looking at himself somewhat ironically?
 
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steppenwolf

steppenwolf

Not a student
Oct 25, 2023
161
I think he's differentiating between people who commit suicide without necessarily thinking about it, and people who have given up on life and who continuously contemplate their end.
 

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