Story There was a time, where I directly asked if CTB was ‘illegal’

[TAW122]

Another story back when I was a student in college. Many years ago as I was an college student, I had an awful altercation with my academic advisor all over the another professor (not in the same major, but was another subject course altogether) and ultimately, things did not end up in my favor and I received a grade other than I had expected. I was distraught, being someone who wanted to obtain perfect marks and such, I never got it, then I had an altercation where my academic advisor raised his voice against me (I was the quiet one the whole time) and not once have I raised my voice nor stood my ground. So eventually after the altercation between and knowing I have lost with nothing left, being shaken, despaired, and very upset, I asked him a question.

I asked: "Is it illegal to CTB?"

He said: "No, but if you were going to, you wouldn't let anyone know, right? You would keep it quiet or secret?" (para-phrased ofc)

Fortunately, nothing more came of the ordeal and situation at the time, and after that, I requested to change my academic advisor to a more civil one and never acknowledged that one. After the incident event, it only confirmed my suspicions and attitudes towards how the world really treated CTB in general (in other words, it just reinforced my perspective of how hostile this world is towards anything anti-life or that isn't pro-life). We indeed live in a pro-life, oppressive world such that if we didn't fit the (social) mold of pro-life tenets, we'd be persecuted, harassed, and/or otherwise lead a difficult life.

Of course, in present day while this was many years ago, I felt like this story just illustrates how bad things are and just proves that we end up having to plan CTB in secrecy, almost like the prohibition of alcohol in the early 1920's. Additionally, it may not be illegal in the criminal sense, but it is treated as de facto illegal, meaning that authorities are able to (temporarily) intervene to deprive one of their civil liberties and personal freedom in the name of public safety despite the individual having committed no crimes. It makes me rather furious how people dance around or even disingenuously claim that it isn't illegal. Sure, just because it isn't illegal (viewed as a 'crime' through the criminal justice system), doesn't mean that there aren't consequences!

 

[Captive_Mind515]

The only way to change this dynamic in society, is to talk openly (and positively) about death and dying in a casual manner in everyday discourse. Remove the stigma by making it an everyday topic.

But sadly, even many people who believe in the right to die very often view death in a somewhat negative or downbeat perspective. We should be more open minded about the possibilities of death, and view it as a great adventure that we all get to experience… not this dreaded thing that must be either ignored or faced with fear and trepidation.

 

[FuneralCry]

To me it does feel like it's illegal as humans do all they can to make suicide inaccessible with many of those who say they wish to die being so cruelly locked in psych wards. It feels like we are being punished ultimately because other people were selfish enough to procreate into this cruel and hellish world where suicide isn't seen as a valid option.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't want to insult you here. Obviously I don't know the full story. As I understand it here though- you got into an altercation with a senior member of staff because you didn't receive the grade you thought you deserved. I'm guessing there are formal procedures to go about if you feel you are being unfairly discriminated against in terms of grades. I'm not sure whether you followed that procedure or went directly to the head and complained about this other professor? In which case- I suspect they may well just automatically side with their member of staff. Generally, I don't think teachers like being questioned but still- he should have kept his calm.

It sounds like he was overly aggressive though- so- maybe you had every reason to make him feel bad but personally- I would have taken what you said to insinuate- 'I'm considering killing myself as a direct response to this conversation with you and the fact that I haven't been given a high enough grade- ie. It will be your fault.' I'd say that could be interpreted as a method to manipulate or emotionally blackmail (sorry- I don't expect that was your intention. You were probably just expressing how desperate you felt.)

Put it another way though- for whatever reason, he may have trusted that other professor enough to believe that that was a fair grade. It doesn't sound like he had much awareness over how aggressive he himself may come across as. Some teachers are just scary and shout. Then- he has someone mentioning suicide- possibly insinuating they'll do it because they didn't receive the grade they wanted. I think it more likely that he wanted to express that he wouldn't be manipulated like that or be blamed. (Even if that wasn't your intention.)

His response seems to suggest (to me more) that he wasn't taking you seriously and he decided to call your bluff. From what he said- he didn't actually tell you it was illegal. He didn't even try to stop you! He simply doubted you would do it. Risky strategy really- if you had! So yeah- it's kind of shocking how little people care more! In a way- he maybe should have taken that as a serious threat that you were considering suicide and at the least- asked you outright. In a way, it's more of a pro-choice move that he didn't!

It sounds more to me like he felt you were threatening him with harming yourself which would likely have had a negative impact on him and the school when the police started looking for a motive. That's my take- although- I could be wrong and I'm sorry if I've insulted you. I don't believe you were trying to manipulate or blame him but- people do.

Even partners will use suicide threats as a means of coercive control. It's like an extreme form of a tantrum in a way. Of course- it can be real of course. Genuinely being treated badly in life can lead us to want to suicide but expressing it can cause complications.

 

[TAW122]

The only way to change this dynamic in society, is to talk openly (and positively) about death and dying in a casual manner in everyday discourse. Remove the stigma by making it an everyday topic.

But sadly, even many people who believe in the right to die very often view death in a somewhat negative or downbeat perspective. We should be more open minded about the possibilities of death, and view it as a great adventure that we all get to experience… not this dreaded thing that must be either ignored or faced with fear and trepidation.

Absolutely, and since all humans eventually expire/die whether it is old age, disease, natural causes, or other cause, it doesn't make sense to constantly ignore, distract, and/or otherwise sweep mortality under the rug just because some people may be offended at reality. Reality and nature doesn't care about what one thinks and as far as the universe is concerned, we are all just living organisms that are transferring/exchanging energy.

To me it does feel like it's illegal as humans do all they can to make suicide inaccessible with many of those who say they wish to die being so cruelly locked in psych wards. It feels like we are being punished ultimately because other people were selfish enough to procreate into this cruel and hellish world where suicide isn't seen as a valid option.

Indeed, it is de facto illegal because there are heavy prices and consequences that can happen if one were to be found to either be planning, preparing, or otherwise attempting to CTB (but got intervened upon). Yes, also as an antinatalist myself, I don't wish to bring any non-sentient being into sentience as they have no say in whether they wish to come into this (horrible) world.

I don't want to insult you here. Obviously I don't know the full story. As I understand it here though- you got into an altercation with a senior member of staff because you didn't receive the grade you thought you deserved. I'm guessing there are formal procedures to go about if you feel you are being unfairly discriminated against in terms of grades. I'm not sure whether you followed that procedure or went directly to the head and complained about this other professor? In which case- I suspect they may well just automatically side with their member of staff. Generally, I don't think teachers like being questioned but still- he should have kept his calm.

It sounds like he was overly aggressive though- so- maybe you had every reason to make him feel bad but personally- I would have taken what you said to insinuate- 'I'm considering killing myself as a direct response to this conversation with you and the fact that I haven't been given a high enough grade- ie. It will be your fault.' I'd say that could be interpreted as a method to manipulate or emotionally blackmail (sorry- I don't expect that was your intention. You were probably just expressing how desperate you felt.)

Put it another way though- for whatever reason, he may have trusted that other professor enough to believe that that was a fair grade. It doesn't sound like he had much awareness over how aggressive he himself may come across as. Some teachers are just scary and shout. Then- he has someone mentioning suicide- possibly insinuating they'll do it because they didn't receive the grade they wanted. I think it more likely that he wanted to express that he wouldn't be manipulated like that or be blamed. (Even if that wasn't your intention.)

His response seems to suggest (to me more) that he wasn't taking you seriously and he decided to call your bluff. From what he said- he didn't actually tell you it was illegal. He didn't even try to stop you! He simply doubted you would do it. Risky strategy really- if you had! So yeah- it's kind of shocking how little people care more! In a way- he maybe should have taken that as a serious threat that you were considering suicide and at the least- asked you outright. In a way, it's more of a pro-choice move that he didn't!

It sounds more to me like he felt you were threatening him with harming yourself which would likely have had a negative impact on him and the school when the police started looking for a motive. That's my take- although- I could be wrong and I'm sorry if I've insulted you. I don't believe you were trying to manipulate or blame him but- people do.

Even partners will use suicide threats as a means of coercive control. It's like an extreme form of a tantrum in a way. Of course- it can be real of course. Genuinely being treated badly in life can lead us to want to suicide but expressing it can cause complications.

Yes, my story may be a little vague, but in short, it was because Professor B (from another department - not my major) had promised if I had fulfilled a certain condition, I would more/less be secure to earn a grade that I wanted (which was an "A mark"). With regards to the formal procedure, I did, and sadly it didn't produce the outcome that I was hoping for. I agree he should have kept his calm.

I don't believe that I was trying to emotionally blackmail my academic advisor at the time, but I was indeed very upset over how things transpired and turned out. Also, he didn't shout and be scary/intimidating as a result of my asking of the question, but rather because of why I though it was unfair that I didn't earn the grade I believe I deserved (he was more angry about my entitlement at the time). Anyways, I could see how you may have misinterpreted it as my emotional blackmailing him, but no, it was never my intention and was rather just a desperate response to the whole situation, especially his reaction (the verbal intimidation and shouting). So, no, the question was the result of the desperate situation and his shouting/verbal intimidation of me.

Granted now that I'm older, I would never allow people to treat me like this anymore, and either I will walk away (if I can/able to) and end the conversation immediately; or I will stand my ground and shout back, not to be intimidated by anyone. I guess nowadays I take a more, Idgaf and don't have much (if anything, valuable) to lose so maybe it's easier, but that's probably a different story altogether.

In short, for that particular situation, no, I wasn't using CTB threats or anything as coercion or control, but rather was just a reaction to his intimidation and aggressive approach towards me. Plus, I was curious at the time.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Absolutely, and since all humans eventually expire/die whether it is old age, disease, natural causes, or other cause, it doesn't make sense to constantly ignore, distract, and/or otherwise sweep mortality under the rug just because some people may be offended at reality. Reality and nature doesn't care about what one thinks and as far as the universe is concerned, we are all just living organisms that are transferring/exchanging energy.


Indeed, it is de facto illegal because there are heavy prices and consequences that can happen if one were to be found to either be planning, preparing, or otherwise attempting to CTB (but got intervened upon). Yes, also as an antinatalist myself, I don't wish to bring any non-sentient being into sentience as they have no say in whether they wish to come into this (horrible) world.


Yes, my story may be a little vague, but in short, it was because Professor B (from another department - not my major) had promised if I had fulfilled a certain condition, I would more/less be secure to earn a grade that I wanted (which was an "A mark"). With regards to the formal procedure, I did, and sadly it didn't produce the outcome that I was hoping for. I agree he should have kept his calm.

I don't believe that I was trying to emotionally blackmail my academic advisor at the time, but I was indeed very upset over how things transpired and turned out. Also, he didn't shout and be scary/intimidating as a result of my asking of the question, but rather because of why I though it was unfair that I didn't earn the grade I believe I deserved (he was more angry about my entitlement at the time). Anyways, I could see how you may have misinterpreted it as my emotional blackmailing him, but no, it was never my intention and was rather just a desperate response to the whole situation, especially his reaction (the verbal intimidation and shouting). So, no, the question was the result of the desperate situation and his shouting/verbal intimidation of me.

Granted now that I'm older, I would never allow people to treat me like this anymore, and either I will walk away (if I can/able to) and end the conversation immediately; or I will stand my ground and shout back, not to be intimidated by anyone. I guess nowadays I take a more, Idgaf and don't have much (if anything, valuable) to lose so maybe it's easier, but that's probably a different story altogether.

In short, for that particular situation, no, I wasn't using CTB threats or anything as coercion or control, but rather was just a reaction to his intimidation and aggressive approach towards me. Plus, I was curious at the time.

I absolutely believe you and I can see how this whole thing could have transpired- sometimes people push us to our breaking point and it all kind of comes out. I would definitely say- the teacher shouldn't have acted so aggressively to promt that in you. They are the adult. They are in the position of authority- they have the power- they don't need to throw their weight around like that. Especially since you had gone down the official route to question the grade.

I guess I was just trying to say- this is how he may have interpreted it. Not that it's what you actually meant. But- let's say he did feel you were acting 'entitled' and then you go and mention suicide- it could sound as if you're threatening to do it in response to being told you can't have what you want. I'm not saying you're being unreasonable or that you even meant that- it sounds like you were just being honest but- it also sounds like he had formed an opinion on you- if that makes sense?

What were you hoping he would say in response to that? Did you think it would lead to a theoretical debate? Were you hoping he would take it as a suicide threat and feel bad about what he'd said? Or- that it might make him panic and try to talk more nicely to you? I'm guessing maybe it's something that just came out in the heat of the moment maybe.

I do feel like his response was basically dismissive though- he wasn't willing to engage in any way because he wasn't willing to feel responsible for you feeling like that- whether he was responsible or not. To me his response was actually the whole: 'People who talk about suicide don't go through with it.' A fallacy of course but a way of belittling someone. For whatever reason, he didn't believe you and wasn't prepared to engage in a conversation. That's how I read his response anyhow.

 

[TAW122]

I absolutely believe you and I can see how this whole thing could have transpired- sometimes people push us to our breaking point and it all kind of comes out. I would definitely say- the teacher shouldn't have acted so aggressively to promt that in you. They are the adult. They are in the position of authority- they have the power- they don't need to throw their weight around like that. Especially since you had gone down the official route to question the grade.

I guess I was just trying to say- this is how he may have interpreted it. Not that it's what you actually meant. But- let's say he did feel you were acting 'entitled' and then you go and mention suicide- it could sound as if you're threatening to do it in response to being told you can't have what you want. I'm not saying you're being unreasonable or that you even meant that- it sounds like you were just being honest but- it also sounds like he had formed an opinion on you- if that makes sense?

What were you hoping he would say in response to that? Did you think it would lead to a theoretical debate? Were you hoping he would take it as a suicide threat and feel bad about what he'd said? Or- that it might make him panic and try to talk more nicely to you? I'm guessing maybe it's something that just came out in the heat of the moment maybe.

I do feel like his response was basically dismissive though- he wasn't willing to engage in any way because he wasn't willing to feel responsible for you feeling like that- whether he was responsible or not. To me his response was actually the whole: 'People who talk about suicide don't go through with it.' A fallacy of course but a way of belittling someone. For whatever reason, he didn't believe you and wasn't prepared to engage in a conversation. That's how I read his response anyhow.

Thanks for clarifying and responding. Yes, I agree that they are the adult and are in a position of authority too. It makes sense from how someone may have interpreted the situation. I suppose besides my direct response/immediate reaction after being shouted and intimidated at, I was also curious and my intention was to get an honest answer. I had no inclination to blackmail, coerce, or otherwise manipulate his emotions. Also, yeah it is possible that he may be just alluding to that and also not going towards engaging someone in conversation.

Nevertheless, I just wanted to share this story (even though it was many many years ago) just as an example of how prohibitive the world is towards pro-choice and CTB in general, it seems like everywhere is anti-choice except for certain safe spaces like SaSu to name a few.