The Purpose of This Forum

[tidalwxves]

Hey, I understand that the people here are not in the best state of mind, that's how they got here. This isn't meant to judge, rather to make this place the most helpful environment it can be. I've noticed a lot of people posting things here that clearly belong in offtopic, as well as people things that violate rules, even going so far as asking for encouragement in the actual act of suicide or glamorizing death as singular option or the only good. I would just like for us all to make an effort to be mindful. We don't want this site to get shut down, and we also want easy access to resources that help people make informed decisions.

Let's be careful not to glamorize suicide, I am concerned by some of the content I have seen recently. While I am a proponent of what this site has to offer, and don't agree with those who want to shut it down we have to do better. Please take time to report inappropriate behavior and be mindful of what you post yourself.

 

[Didymus]

...I've noticed a lot of people posting things here that clearly belong in offtopic, ...

This is what's most annoying to me. I have ignored the offtopic forum specifically to hide those posts from the 'new posts' screen. But the forum ignore option is useless if this forum is overloaded with off topic posts. I have even reached multiple times the limit of 1000 maximum ignored threads in this forum

 

[ecmnesia]

while I agree with you, I don't think you should go and say this on another user's thread. they might be wrong, but some of them are talking about pretty sensitive issues, even if it's not about cbt. we should each be more careful about where and what we post, but if that's not the case, reporting the post to the mods seems to be enough. I mean, it can be really hard for someone who is going through pain to read what you are saying in their threads... idk, just being too sensitive, but that's it.

 

[tidalwxves]

while I agree with you, I don't think you should go and say this on another user's thread.

I am careful with my wording, I work hard to be respectful when I post. I don't curse at people, I don't use insults, and I acknowledge they were brought here by a lot of pain. At the same time, if I see someone repeat offending I will make a comment. I won't be nasty because that's uncalled for, but I don't think its unreasonable for me to say something if it is an issue that keeps persisting and I am careful with my language. It's not something I make a habit of, but I don't think it's something I should not be allowed to do. This is at the end of the day a public forum, when you put something out publicly it is possible you will get responses you don't like, and if you repeatedly misuse a function it is possible someone will point that out.
I don't make light of the issues people face here, but to maximize the help this forum can offer people should take the time and respect the thought and care the people made this site put into it and use it as intended. Those other features are there for a reason.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I am careful with my wording, I work hard to be respectful when I post. I don't curse at people, I don't use insults, and I acknowledge they were brought here by a lot of pain. At the same time, if I see someone repeat offending I will make a comment. I won't be nasty because that's uncalled for, but I don't think its unreasonable for me to say something if it is an issue that keeps persisting and I am careful with my language. It's not something I make a habit of, but I don't think it's something I should not be allowed to do. This is at the end of the day a public forum, when you put something out publicly it is possible you will get responses you don't like, and if you repeatedly misuse a function it is possible someone will point that out.
I don't make light of the issues people face here, but to maximize the help this forum can offer people should take the time and respect the thought and care the people made this site put into it and use it as intended. Those other features are there for a reason.

you might be careful with your wording but before you decide what you think should be where you might what to think that maybe you dont understand what is being said and therefore maybe shouldnt say anything
speaking of youre a bit hypocritical. youre not talking about suicide shouldnt this be in offtopic

 

[ecmnesia]

I am careful with my wording, I work hard to be respectful when I post. I don't curse at people, I don't use insults, and I acknowledge they were brought here by a lot of pain. At the same time, if I see someone repeat offending I will make a comment. I won't be nasty because that's uncalled for, but I don't think its unreasonable for me to say something if it is an issue that keeps persisting and I am careful with my language. It's not something I make a habit of, but I don't think it's something I should not be allowed to do. This is at the end of the day a public forum, when you put something out publicly it is possible you will get responses you don't like, and if you repeatedly misuse a function it is possible someone will point that out.
I don't make light of the issues people face here, but to maximize the help this forum can offer people should take the time and respect the thought and care the people made this site put into it and use it as intended. Those other features are there for a reason.

sorry, I did not meant that you acted like that towards anyone. It's just that some people take it really hard, even if you are not being agressive or anything. You should be able to say anything you want, and you are, I am merely giving you my input on the matter, do not
want under any circumstances to refrain that. Many people in this forum are quite instable, myself included, and idk, that does not justify, still... ok, maybe I should just not have said any of those things, but that's it. these people are hurting and just want to be heard, you know.

it takes a lot of effort to change such a thing, and unfortunately commenting on this threads does not seem effective.

anyway sorry if I was somehow offensive, it was absolutely not the intention.

speaking of youre a bit hypocritical. youre not talking about suicide shouldnt this be in offtopic

plus, she's got a point.

 

[tidalwxves]

sorry, I did not meant that you acted like that towards anyone. It's just that some people take it really hard, even if you are not being agressive or anything. You should be able to say anything you want, and you are, I am merely giving you my input on the matter, do not
want under any circumstances to refrain that. Many people in this forum are quite instable, myself included, and idk, that does not justify, still... ok, maybe I should just not have said any of those things, but that's it.

it takes a lot of effort to change such a thing, and unfortunately commenting on this threads does not seem effective.

anyway sorry if I was somehow offensive, it was absolutely not the intention.

plus, she's got a point.

No need to apologize, you didn't offend. But that user doesn't have a point as I have mentioned suicide more than once in the post and my concerns about how some users are glamorizing it or making it sound like the only option. This post clearly deals with suicide and the management of the suicide discussion, so I don't see why it wouldn't belong in the suicide discussion.

 

[Life_and_Death]

No need to apologize, you didn't offend. But that user doesn't have a point as I have mentioned suicide more than once in the post and my concerns about how some users are glamorizing it or making it sound like the only option. This post clearly deals with suicide and the management of the suicide discussion, so I don't see why it wouldn't belong in the suicide discussion.

im sorry. ill make sure to make all my titles say the word suicide just so they belong.

also "that user" please they all know youre talking about me.

 

[KleinerWolf]

my concerns about how some users are glamorizing it or making it sound like the only option. This post clearly deals with suicide and the management of the suicide discussion, so I don't see why it wouldn't belong in the suicide discussion.

It is compassionate not wanting others to glamorise suicide,
however let's be honest, you can't relate to people on such a particular way to say "no you can't be doing that"

you can't control people's past experiences, nor can you control how they feel at a particular time,
whether someone comment pro-suicide or not, it is up to the individual to make their own decisions whether they go through with it,

you can't control everything.

 

[tidalwxves]

It is compassionate not wanting others to glamorise suicide,
however let's be honest, you can't relate to people on such a particular way to say "no you can't be doing that"

you can't control people's past experiences, nor can you control how they feel at a particular time,
whether someone comment pro-suicide or not, it is up to the individual to make their own decisions whether they go through with it,

I'm not trying to control everything, I'm just suggesting we be careful for the sake of ourselves, other users, and this forum. If the glamorization keeps increasing as the negative press does it could eventually lead to serious consequences for this site. I trust the mods, but the mods have an easier time when people are conscientious about the guidelines themselves.
But, to me, more important than that is the fact there are vulnerable people here and while ultimately they make the decision themselves, we can't pretend that it is impossible to egg someone on. That's why everyone needs to be mindful even if it is the individual's final decision.

 

[HadEnough1974]

Hey, I understand that the people here are not in the best state of mind, that's how they got here. This isn't meant to judge, rather to make this place the most helpful environment it can be. I've noticed a lot of people posting things here that clearly belong in offtopic, as well as people things that violate rules, even going so far as asking for encouragement in the actual act of suicide or glamorizing death as singular option or the only good. I would just like for us all to make an effort to be mindful. We don't want this site to get shut down, and we also want easy access to resources that help people make informed decisions.

Let's be careful not to glamorize suicide, I am concerned by some of the content I have seen recently. While I am a proponent of what this site has to offer, and don't agree with those who want to shut it down we have to do better. Please take time to report inappropriate behavior and be mindful of what you post yourself.

I personally haven't seen anyone "glamorize suicide". I also have never seen anyone say: "yeah, I think you should really go ahead and kill yourself."

Perhaps I missed something?

 

[KleinerWolf]

I'm not trying to control everything, I'm just suggesting we be careful for the sake of ourselves, other users, and this forum. If the glamorization keeps increasing as the negative press does it could eventually lead to serious consequences for this site. I trust the mods, but the mods have an easier time when people are conscientious about the guidelines themselves.
But, to me, more important than that is the fact there are vulnerable people here and while ultimately they make the decision themselves, we can't pretend that it is impossible to egg someone on. That's why everyone needs to be mindful even if it is the individual's final decision.

I understand where you are coming from,
however I insist we trust them with their own decisions.
If they want to live, chances are they'll live.

People are responsible for themselves.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@tidalwxves, I agree with you that a post about the Suicide Discussion forum belongs on this form. It doesn't make sense to me to talk about what's happening in the Suicide Discussion in Off Topic, a lot of people who visit this forum don't visit Off Topic.

I agree that it's helpful to have a reminder that the Suicide Discussion forum is meant for anything related to suicide, such as motivations, methods, logistics, fears, concerns, letters, who's affected, etc. I think it's also helpful to have a reminder about what goes or doesn't go in each forum, i.e., suicide topics are triggering to folks in Recovery, and also not posting suicide topics in Off Topic, as some folks there are also trying to stay away from suicide discussions.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a member speaking up about this stuff, but if it doesn't come from a mod, then fellow members may bristle, however mods don't make posts like this, so what is one to do? I don't know, maybe ask a mod to post? I never thought of that before. I do notice these kinds of posts come up periodically because Suicide Discussion has the most attention and therefore gets the most posts, even if they don't fit, and some folks get understandably frustrated when they're just here for methods or suicide-related topics, or when they post something that belongs in this forum and it ends up on the second page because of posts that don't belong.

As far as posts glamorizing suicide...I think if one is going to bring up a repeated behavior that goes against the rules, then it's best to be prepared to provide evidence to support the claim, otherwise it's confusing and even provocative, and therefore causes discord rather than solving problems. Are the posts being reported, and are the mods deleting them? Have you considered gathering evidence and submitting a ticket to show the trend?

 

[MichaelNomad123]

It's an interesting conundrum. I came here because I struggle with depression and suicidal thoughts. I found a community that has touched the void as I have. There are many here that I seem to relate to and can communicate with on a level that I am comfortable -- something I can't normally do.

Unfortunately I also found a surreal culture of suicide encouragement. There is a difference between being pro-choice and simply pro-suicide. It's a difficult problem for me to pinpoint exactly because it treads on ideals that I hold dear such as individualism. I find a lot of the chat room discussions to be bizarre. It seems like the majority of conversations are just about fueling the idea of suicide rather than venting. It's at that point that I wonder if it's really pro-choice anymore. If something becomes cultural, is it really coming from you as a pure choice? I would lean towards not.

Like I said above though, I'm having trouble pinpointing what my issue is exactly. I think this discussion is always going to be a grey one. I just know there is something not sitting well with me when I see how certain folks interact. Finding friends that share your goals is common in life, even if it is as extreme as this, but I think when that common ground starts to develop into something more substantial and romantic it begins to limit the notion of choice. Without choice, you're just feeding off each other. While I think that suicide CAN be a healthy choice to make under some circumstances, I think that what I just described is unhealthy.

All that being said, it's not like you can police peoples interactions. If they want to feel sexy about their suicide then they're going to do that. It does invite an evil though in that you remove the objectivity of the forum and invite judgement. I don't know. I just know that if I'm going to catch my bus, it will be on my own terms. Not because I made some friends that are going to do the same.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Unfortunately I also found a surreal culture of suicide encouragement. There is a difference between being pro-choice and simply pro-suicide. It's a difficult problem for me to pinpoint exactly because it treads on ideals that I hold dear such as individualism. I find a lot of the chat room discussions to be bizarre. It seems like the majority of conversations are just about fueling the idea of suicide rather than venting

I don't hang out in chat so I wasn't aware of this. Do you find the surreal culture of suicide encouragement on the open forum? I haven't seen evidence of that and would appreciate examples so I can be aware.

 

[MichaelNomad123]

I don't hang out in chat so I wasn't aware of this. Do you find the surreal culture of suicide encouragement on the open forum? I haven't seen evidence of that and would appreciate examples so I can be aware.

That would be the problem. It's such a subjective thing and delicate in nature that my wording isn't right and any examples are very open to interpretation. I do see the same culture in this particular sub-forum yes. Encouragement is probably too strong a choice of word as much as "mutual understanding" would be too light a description. It is a culture and with culture comes norms. Norms reinforce behaviour and provide a foundation to ignore free will, also known as choice. So, by definition, I am opposed to a suicide culture because it is adverse to my ideal of individual and choice.

 

[Jean Améry]

If you see behaviour that is against the rules report it to the mods. Hence the 'report' button at the bottom of every post. If it happens in chat make a picture and send it to a mod. It's not difficult really.

I don't get people who complain about behaviour that supposedly violates the rules when there's an obvious way to make it stop.

Of course it could be and it happened before that certain people for various reasons want to undermine the pro choice stance of this forum and impose their own subjective standard of what is good and right on others. I'm quite sure the mods will not stand for this.

This seems to be the new rage: post a very vague complaint about supposed suicide encouragement without any evidence whatsoever and feel good about your own self-righteousness. Instant coolness.

That being said trying to induce someone to self-destruction is vile and highly immoral not to mention it damages this forum which is one of a kind. We already get enough flak from the outside world, no need to give them extra ammunition. Pushing someone to suicide is actually a crime in a lot of jurisdictions so SS needs to stay away from that as far as possible. If they do manage to have this forum closed it'll be because of nefarious behaviour like that which will take away all the good things that this forum has brought to people.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

That would be the problem. It's such a subjective thing and delicate in nature that my wording isn't right and any examples are very open to interpretation. I do see the same culture in this particular sub-forum yes. Encouragement is probably too strong a choice of word as much as "mutual understanding" would be too light a description. It is a culture and with culture comes norms. Norms reinforce behaviour and provide a foundation to ignore free will, also known as choice. So, by definition, I am opposed to a suicide culture because it is adverse to my ideal of individual and choice.

So, in your previous comment, you specifically said:

Unfortunately I also found a surreal culture of suicide encouragement. There is a difference between being pro-choice and simply pro-suicide.

You said two really serious things here: culture of suicide encouragement and pro-suicide.

But immediately following that, you said it's hard to pinpoint, and then in your response to me, respectfully, there's a combination of backpedaling yet simultaneously not giving up the stance: "it's subjective," "encouragement is too strong a word."

Dude, it's either happening or it's not.


@tidalwxves, respectfully, you haven't replied to my request for examples either.


I agree with @Jean Améry's observation:

This seems to be the new rage: post a very vague complaint about supposed suicide encouragement without any evidence whatsoever

Here's my take: it's becoming a trend to say there is pro-suicide activity on the forum and provide no proof (ironically, I can provide proof of my assertion, some is right here on this thread). Just because a bunch of people say it's happening doesn't mean it's true -- evidence to back it up means it's true. Yet it's been proven that if something is repeated enough times, people will believe it; that was a tool of the Nazi party in taking power.


So if you're genuinely disturbed, @MichaelNomad123 and @tidalwxves, then genuinely do the forum a favor and call it out. Not only is there a report function on the site, there's a quote button.

 

[MichaelNomad123]

So, in your previous comment, you specifically said:



You said two really serious things here: culture of suicide encouragement and pro-suicide.

But immediately following that, you said it's hard to pinpoint, and then in your response to me, respectfully, there's a combination of backpedaling yet simultaneously not giving up the stance: "it's subjective," "encouragement is too strong a word."

Dude, it's either happening or it's not.


@tidalwxves, respectfully, you haven't replied to my request for examples either.


I agree with @Jean Améry's observation:



Here's my take: it's becoming a trend to say there is pro-suicide activity on the forum and provide no proof. Just because a bunch of people say it's happening doesn't mean it's true -- evidence to back it up means it's true. Yet it's been proven that if something is repeated enough times, people will believe it; that was a tool of the Nazi party in taking power.


So if you're genuinely disturbed, @MichaelNomad123 and @tidalwxves, then genuinely do the forum a favor and call it out. Not only is there a report function on the site, there's a quote button.

I'm just sharing my thoughts, not writing an essay. You are free of course to point out my logical mistakes or otherwise, but it's a pretty futile exercise. I was talking like we were equals because that's a luxury I give to strangers as one human to another, giving you the opportunity to warm to my indecision. You chose instead to nitpick at what I already presented to you as only a partially-formed thought. Unfortunate.

Either way, it is very subjective. Do I think anyone has "breached" the forum rules? No. Was I sharing my thoughts on what I see here as a relatively new member? Yes. That's all you need to take from this exchange. No one is attacking you. Cool your jets, brother.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'm just sharing my thoughts, not writing an essay. You are free of course to point out my logical mistakes or otherwise, but it's a pretty futile exercise. I was talking like we were equals because that's a luxury I give to strangers as one human to another, giving you the opportunity to warm to my indecision. You chose instead to nitpick at what I already presented to you as only a partially-formed thought. Unfortunate.

Either way, it is very subjective. Do I think anyone has "breached" the forum rules? No. Was I sharing my thoughts on what I see here as a relatively new member? Yes. That's all you need to take from this exchange. No one is attacking you. Cool your jets, brother.

I'm chagrined. Totally put in my place. Hanging my head in shame. I...I victimized you. I took your goodwill and treated you abonimably. I attacked you personally and not your stance. And I...omg...I determined for myself what to take from our exchange. I...I can't believe I did all this...I'm horrified with myself: I used critical thinking skills and I hurt someone with them.

I am, I'm totally nitpicky. I pay attention to the things people say. And that hurts my relationships with them.

Ah, my jets, my damnable jets! They will be the death of me, and of everyone I come near. They are so unceasingly on fire.

It probably won't result in much, but thank you for trying to shut me and my jets down. I know you're doing me a service. I know it stems from goodwill.

Say what you will in reply. I won't respond to it, because I know already I'm going to misunderstand your words and intentions toward me, and do even more harm if I dare type another word.



And for anyone who is reading this exchange, do not look at the manipulation tactics thread. You'll see that I have abused with sarcasm, and nothing on that list is applicable to @MichaelNomad123's comment to me here. It would be a futile exercise and you'd just be nitpicking. Don't be like me. I beg you.

 

[MichaelNomad123]

I'm chagrined. Totally put in my place. Hanging my head in shame. I...I victimized you. I took your goodwill and treated you abonimably. I attacked you personally and not your stance. And I...omg...I determined for myself what to take from our exchange. I...I can't believe I did all this...I'm horrified with myself: I used critical thinking skills and I hurt someone with them.

I am, I'm totally nitpicky. I pay attention to the things people say. And that hurts my relationships with them.

Ah, my jets, my damnable jets! They will be the death of me, and of everyone I come near. They are so unceasingly on fire.

It probably won't result in much, but thank you for trying to shut me and my jets down. I know you're doing me a service. I know it stems from goodwill.

Say what you will in reply. I won't respond to it, because I know already I'm going to misunderstand your words and intentions toward me, and do even more harm if I dare type another word.



And for anyone who is reading this exchange, do not look at the manipulation tactics thread. You'll see that I have abused with sarcasm, and nothing on that list is applicable to @MichaelNomad123's comment to me here. It would be a futile exercise and you'd just be nitpicking. Don't be like me. I beg you.

Is this how you always respond to people with differing opinions? You seem very well adjusted.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Unfortunately I also found a surreal culture of suicide encouragement. There is a difference between being pro-choice and simply pro-suicide. It's a difficult problem for me to pinpoint exactly because it treads on ideals that I hold dear such as individualism

I am opposed to a suicide culture because it is adverse to my ideal of individual and choice.

hi,
I haven't personally encountered this culture of suicide encouragement.
but let's say for the sake of argument that a suicide culture exists, which comes with norms which impact behavior etc, and therefore diminishes individualism.

Do you find the pro-life, anti-suicide culture in the society at large to be equally problematic?
After all, that comes with norms, codes of behavior, which presumably restrict free will and individualism too.

Where is the domain of pure individuality and free will?

 

[Deleted member 1465]

It is a culture and with culture comes norms. Norms reinforce behaviour and provide a foundation to ignore free will, also known as choice.

I believe that is exactly what this site's detractors define as encouragement.

 

[MichaelNomad123]

hi,
I haven't personally encountered this culture of suicide encouragement.
but let's say for the sake of argument that a suicide culture exists, which comes with norms which impact behavior etc, and therefore diminishes individualism.

Do you find the pro-life, anti-suicide culture in the society at large to be equally problematic?
After all, that comes with norms, codes of behavior, which presumably restrict free will and individualism too.

Where is the domain of pure individuality and free will?

I don't think the comparison is valid and it also detracts from the issue at hand. It's not really a debate about pro-choice and pro-life. It's about establishing whether or not there is a culture of suicide on this forum. Whether or not the culture and society you grew up in has detracted from your free will is another matter entirely.

As I said in a previous post, I don't feel like it actually matters if there is a culture of suicide here or not because you can't police human behaviour, but I just wanted to voice my observations from my short time here. I see what I see. I think that there exists pockets of individuals here that are essentially feeding off eachothers misery. I think many of these users engaged in this are young. I think that that ceases to be about choosing to end your suffering and more about fulfilling a romance. I find that sad, honestly, because I don't feel like younger users know any better.

It's a tough thing to address because any move essentially labels you (or me in this case) as pro-life. Furthermore I lack the tools to put my thoughts down in any articulate way. It is what it is and I am largely indifferent.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with praising suicide. Some people would just prefer not to be alive and be subject to the unforgiving rules of life. I don't think that life is objectively better or worse than death, whatever that would even mean. Everyone is just victim to different circumstances so some will end up preferring life, others death, and of course there's a complex space in between.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I don't think the comparison is valid and it also detracts from the issue at hand

Fair enough. I only mentioned it because you seemed to imply that the culture of suicide was only bad because it undermined your ideal of individuality and free will.

I think that there exists pockets of individuals here that are essentially feeding off eachothers misery.

I see what you mean. I have certainly read some very negative and depressing things, and negative reactions to those things, and the negativity and pessimism sort of reinforces and feeds off itself. but I guess this is a 'free' forum and no one forced anyone else to be here, and no one forces anyone else to stay.

think many of these users engaged in this are young

This is possible yes, though I don't know just how many non adults there actually are

I think that that ceases to be about choosing to end your suffering and more about fulfilling a romance

I'm not sure. We can never be certain what others' true motivations are. If someone is suffering and wants to ctb, then it is reasonable to take their word for it.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with praising suicide. Some people would just prefer not to be alive and be subject to the unforgiving rules of life. I don't think that life is objectively better or worse than death, whatever that would even mean. Everyone is just victim to different circumstances so some will end up preferring life, others death, and of course there's a complex space in between.

I like to think of it in this way.
Imagine you go to sleep and and some evil entity in another dimension teleports you to another universe and planet, and deposits you in this totally new society, with different rules, norms, economic relations etc. You wake up without any memory of your previous life, but somehow have to navigate in this new, alien social environment, to find new ways to survive and find security and wellbeing.
Imagine you don't succeed and become depressed, miserable and anxious because of the unfair rules, unforgiving interpersonal dynamics, unjust economic relations etc.
In this case you would be totally justified in wanting to die, and seeking means to die, all the while cursing the evil entity who put you in that situation in the first place. But this is life on earth for many people and other sentient beings.

 

[muffin222]

I see posts like this periodically where people lament the pro-death and "pro-suicide" culture allegedly infiltrating the site, but I've still yet to see any real, concrete evidence of anyone encouraging anyone to commit suicide... in fact, in almost every goodbye thread I see on the forum, there's always at least one poster reminding the OP that it's not too late to change their mind.

If this is such a prolific issue on this forum that multiple posters are troubled by it, why can't a single one of them link to some sort of evidence to demonstrate this supposed trend?

I think some people are just uncomfortable with the pro-choice atmosphere on this forum because it stands in such stark contrast to the societal rhetoric of saving every single person from suicide by every means possible, against the person's will. It's understandable to feel uncomfortable about the pro-choice tone of this forum when you're used to being told that suicide is wrong and bad and must be stopped in all cases no matter what.

I can see how the tone of this forum can read as "encouraging" or "glamorizing" suicide to people who aren't used to viewing suicide as a free-will choice, but that doesn't mean anyone is actually encouraging suicide. If they are, report it. Or, better yet, post a link to some concrete evidence that suicide encouragement is actually happening instead of trying to police everyone's posts to suit your perspective on how the forum should function.

You're entitled to your subjective perceptions, of course. But, that doesn't mean that your perceptions are fact or that other people are required to obey them