Venting The problem of psychiatry is the pathologization of natural behaviors to push a narrative or hold the status quo (of society)

[TAW122]

Note: I was thinking about making separate threads on such a big topic, but instead I will merge some topics into one thread as it all relates to each other in some way, shape, or form.

As usual, existentialgoof has said in the past and yet again, albeit in different words, that psychiatry and the labels of mental illness is "political" as in it's derived not from medical evidence of disorders and diseases but rather the values and (current or past) social norms that are established by the people in power as well as the masses. (See examples here, #1, #2) He also cited good examples of the human rights abuses in the 20th​ century (see his post in another thread). This only goes to show how much damage and harm the field has done towards certain groups in society that don't fit the narrative or deemed unacceptable by the State and the masses.

This is unsettling as it is weaponized in such a way to curb a dissident's voice and freedom just because said person (the dissident) dares to challenge, doubt, criticize, or even question the status quo, or even the field itself. There is no other science or field that is weaponized in such a manner that restricts civil liberties, personal freedoms, and bodily autonomy of an individual. Furthermore, I believe that if it wasn't used as a weapon or means to exert force, control, compliance by the State, or even by other fellow citizens unto each other, it would be more receptive towards it's targeted audience. I do believe that if done for academic purposes and research purposes to benefit human rights, that would be a positive aspect towards humanity instead of it being used as a means and carte blanche justification to (temporarily) strip an individual of their autonomy just because they don't fit the moral values of the State or the masses (including society).

I do not know of many other fields (other than the legal system itself) that seeks to impose their will and strip individuals of their bodily autonomy, personal freedom, and civil liberties just because they don't fit a certain standard. A good quote by existentialgoof (in his response to another user's reply) summarizes this point really well (see quoted post below):

"But psychiatry is uniquely dangerous in the fact that it can pathologise behaviour and ideas. Other fields of medicine can certainly be used to abuse people; but they don't really have the same power to enforce and uphold social mores, because they deal in the purely biological realm of physical symptoms. Whereas psychiatry has the power to stigmatise behaviours such as homosexuality and suicidality, and to disenfranchise those groups of people." -existentialgoof

Can you imagine if general physical health imposed it's will onto people, for example, people who are obese or severely overweight? That would result in a public outrage!

An (Hypothetical) Example Scenario:
Person A is obese and according to the State, A is unhealthy and should be monitored, stripped of their personal freedom, regulated their diet, and monitored for compliance. A general health-police will monitor said person's eating habits, compliance with the regimen (of the diet), and also control the person's finances, what the person does, and if the person deviates from this plan, said person will be locked up in a health-prison where they will be fed the appropriate diet, compelled to participate in healthy activities (cardio and other exercises), take medication to curb appetite and/or regulate their metabolism, and more!

Obviously, this wouldn't happen in a free world and only in dystopic and dysfunctional societies. The point is, the majority of people will be outraged (and rightfully so) should this scenario ever become a reality. However, when it comes to the rampant abuse of civil rights, personal freedoms and liberties of people not enjoying life, people don't bat an eye to the issue, and worse yet, seems to approve of such practices. It's not only hypocritical, but also disgusting.

A mini-story (back almost a decade ago):
Back when I was still studying at a university, almost a decade ago, I found that counseling and mental health professionals weren't helpful and after some time, I stopped going and then one day, I gave them a piece of my mind about the system in general. (Yes, I should have known better that it wouldn't change anything, but this was pre-SaSu and even before I discovered SaSu reddit.) Then in a future appointment, which was also my last one with that particular mental health professional, she decided to include a neutral witness (NW) (not really neutral imho as they are still a mental health professional – but neutral to my case as NW was not directly involved in my case), and lo and behold, they (no surprise!) defended psychiatry and psychotherapy. They even tried to deflect, deny, dismiss, and even have the audacity to suggest finding other people outside of university! It was infuriating nevertheless and since that day, I've learned that one cannot simply reason with these people (perhaps they might even be bound by ethics not to question their own field or scrutinize their own). After that session, I felt like justice was NOT served and (at best) it was just a waste of time and effort. Luckily, they did not try to set subsequent appointments and just moved on from there.

Anyways, with the example I gave about the harms and violations of human civil rights by psychiatry and similar fields as well as my mini-story of trying to scrutinize and get some minuscule sense of justice from the system (back when I was naive and even before I discovered SaSu), the bottom line is that this thread serves as a vent as well as an PSA (if you consider it one) about how invasive, paternalistic, probing, and damaging psychiatry can be especially with things such as the right to die and civil liberties.

Additionally, I have written numerous threads scrutinizing and criticizing psychiatry and the use of it to enslave and oppress people who do not share mainstream values or upset the status quo. We are not really free if we cannot speak our mind without the fear of consequences and I'm glad that SaSu is a platform where I can expose the horrors of the fields and without being gaslit, shutdown, dismissed, or even risk intervention against my will for simply blowing the whistle.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Lulzacruel]

personally, i dont think psychiatry is bad by itself, but rather the doctors that practice it.

i disagree with the statement that psychiatry and psych wards are intrinsically harmful, but i personally that those should only be used for truly dangerous or self-harming people, like severe psychosis or people with severe depression who will almost certainly CTB if left unchecked. i only support CTB for those who have all treatment and gotten no result or for those in abusive families that wont allow treatment.

while i cringe at edgelords who believe that psychiatry has no benefit (it helped me with my schizotypal) i dont deny that psych wards can be considered cruel and unusual punishment for those who simply have passive ideation or mild psychosis like i had.

i hear that japanese wards are worse, with constant abuse. in my area, the reviews for my local psych ward and the ward i went to in Italy were meh, could've been better.

 

[saddestbunny]

they just aren't helpful because of a lack of awareness. i've been to many health professionals. it seems that psychologists / therapists exist to help people who aren't self aware figure out their feelings and what they should do about it. they have no options if you are self aware yourself and have thought everything to death. they will just say they can't help u or to do the pointless things that don't work for your situation. i've tried changing my life many times. it always ends up the same emotionally

that's if you happen to get a good one. if you get a bad one they won't help at all and just take your money while they give stupid advice that does nothing except for the barest of feelings. having clinical untreatable depression and trying to deal with them is a joke. some of them are depressed themselves. some are just the mean girls from ur high school growing up that now have a piece of paper and a way to make money, and they dont even care.

psychiatrists are there to be pill dispensers. they wont even give you what you need if you tell the truth. only through lying could i actually get adhd medication for instance for my actual adhd cause if i said i had suicidal thoughts they wouldnt give it. so she basically told me to lie and not to tell her. worthless.

if therapy was just showing love and support and helping the person fix their life problems for extended periods of time maybe but that's an idealist view that wouldn't ever happen especially if you dont have money - instead it's infodump for an hour or more and have them tell you obvious stuff

and mental health wards in america are a joke i wont even go there

 

[skittles!]

I've known quite a few horrible psychiatrists, but I've also known psychiatrists whose scripts are the only thing keeping people's lives functioning. I would argue that the reason people are being stigmatized and treated like garbage by psychiatrists has less to do with psychiatry or the mental health field and more to do with humanity being shitty.

 

[TAW122]

personally, i dont think psychiatry is bad by itself, but rather the doctors that practice it.

i disagree with the statement that psychiatry and psych wards are intrinsically harmful, but i personally that those should only be used for truly dangerous or self-harming people, like severe psychosis or people with severe depression who will almost certainly CTB if left unchecked. i only support CTB for those who have all treatment and gotten no result or for those in abusive families that wont allow treatment.

while i cringe at edgelords who believe that psychiatry has no benefit (it helped me with my schizotypal) i dont deny that psych wards can be considered cruel and unusual punishment for those who simply have passive ideation or mild psychosis like i had.

i hear that japanese wards are worse, with constant abuse. in my area, the reviews for my local psych ward and the ward i went to in Italy were meh, could've been better.

Sure, there are bad apples in every field or industry, there is no doubt about that. I do not agree with limiting CTB only for those who have tried all treatments and gotten no result or those in in abusive families that won't allow treatment. I believe it should be a fundamental right at the core. Yes, psychiatry can be beneficial for certain people and for those with real illnesses, but yes, the way things are run needs serious reforms.

they just aren't helpful because of a lack of awareness. i've been to many health professionals. it seems that psychologists / therapists exist to help people who aren't self aware figure out their feelings and what they should do about it. they have no options if you are self aware yourself and have thought everything to death. they will just say they can't help u or to do the pointless things that don't work for your situation. i've tried changing my life many times. it always ends up the same emotionally

that's if you happen to get a good one. if you get a bad one they won't help at all and just take your money while they give stupid advice that does nothing except for the barest of feelings. having clinical untreatable depression and trying to deal with them is a joke. some of them are depressed themselves. some are just the mean girls from ur high school growing up that now have a piece of paper and a way to make money, and they dont even care.

psychiatrists are there to be pill dispensers. they wont even give you what you need if you tell the truth. only through lying could i actually get adhd medication for instance for my actual adhd cause if i said i had suicidal thoughts they wouldnt give it. so she basically told me to lie and not to tell her. worthless.

if therapy was just showing love and support and helping the person fix their life problems for extended periods of time maybe but that's an idealist view that wouldn't ever happen especially if you dont have money - instead it's infodump for an hour or more and have them tell you obvious stuff

and mental health wards in america are a joke i wont even go there

I agree with you, especially with my experiences as a patient in the mental health system. While I haven't (nor do I plan to) seen psychologists or any mental health professionals as of the recent years or so, I found that generally they haven't been as helpful for my happiness, well-being, or conducive towards my goals. I consider myself as someone who is independent and know what I want, the problem is reaching said goal(s), and when I fall short of said goals or so, I get upset and sad. I definitely have experienced similar vibes or feelings with the numerous mental health professionals I've seen throughout my life (no less than a dozen or so). While there are some whom are decent, ultimately, I came out only feeling like I've wasted my time and didn't get closer to solving my problem(s) or reaching my goal(s).

I've known quite a few horrible psychiatrists, but I've also known psychiatrists whose scripts are the only thing keeping people's lives functioning. I would argue that the reason people are being stigmatized and treated like garbage by psychiatrists has less to do with psychiatry or the mental health field and more to do with humanity being shitty.

That's an interesting take on it. Perhaps it is a certain kind of personality that goes into the field that makes the field get a bad rep. I would say that if psychiatry and the State did not use it as a way to control and rule over citizens' lives, then that would go a LONG way.

 

[NoLoveNoHope]

I've only seen a fair few good psychiatrist throughout my days, I think the industry needs to be reformed because of a few major problems being:

1. Psychiatry violates human rights via psych wards, forced medications etc
2. The medication has side effects that can often worsen a patients condition (I've heard of anti-psychotics reducing brain size).
3. In various countries the 'care' can be considered torture due to bad actors being given power over vulnerable people.
4. A person may not even want help and it is forced onto the patient which overall isn't helpful (I have involuntary long-term psych ward stays in mind.
5. Due to various fears the patient is indirectly encouraged to lie about their problems to avoid psychiatric stays.

Overall the potential of malpractice of this industry is huge, scandals happen worldwide for example the 'troubled-teen industry' where parents would sign their kids rights away and be KIDNAPPED in the dead of night to be escorted to a facility. Most often the kids had no idea about this and thought they were going to be tortured, killed and abused; This practice is called 'gooning' if you want to look into it. The facilities are often abusive. I've seen a video interviewing a person who went to one of these facilities at 15 if I remember correctly and there were a lot of stories about verbal, physical or outright torture for the patient. There were also stories of kids going in solitary confinement for days and even assaulted.

It is scary for these things to happen and for society to deem it as acceptable and move on while leaving the most vulnerable people in total control of others. I do consider myself apart of the anti-psychiatry movement, I do think there can be help but it is pretty much worthless if you need to lie to avoid being stripped of your free-will.

 

[SoftWorries]

Psychiatrists are nothing compared to an experienced trip sitter.

 

[foreverfalling]

Mental illness is a tool to discourage behaviours not accepted or beneficial to society at large. Society itself is an organism that tries to self perpetuate, and so people with behaviours that destabilise or threaten itself will be weeded out.

So whether it be the prison system, hospital system, mental health system, they are just ways of keeping the whole show running. Just a few years ago we saw your hypothetical scenario become reality.

It doesn't care why the individual behaves the way they do, it just needs to get rid of or fix them. Society won't blame itself, because otherwise it would have to kill itself. It doesn't care what is good or bad, right or wrong, because it determines all these things.

Regarding mental illness, suppose you hired an actor to act depressed for 10 years. Then they go to a psychiatrist, and answer all the questions as someone who is depressed would. Do you think he would be diagnosed as depressed? Would you count him as a depressed person? After getting the diagnosis his contract finishes up and he acts like his normal self. The problem for me is there is no way to read someone's mind to accurately put a label on it. And yet a group of people self elect themselves as an authority over this and thus give themselves control over other people's lives. Being a person with a contrarian opinion (e.g. on CTB), I am constant at war with this society, having to hide myself so society doesn't try to 'fix' me.

 

[TAW122]

I've only seen a fair few good psychiatrist throughout my days, I think the industry needs to be reformed because of a few major problems being:

1. Psychiatry violates human rights via psych wards, forced medications etc
2. The medication has side effects that can often worsen a patients condition (I've heard of anti-psychotics reducing brain size).
3. In various countries the 'care' can be considered torture due to bad actors being given power over vulnerable people.
4. A person may not even want help and it is forced onto the patient which overall isn't helpful (I have involuntary long-term psych ward stays in mind.
5. Due to various fears the patient is indirectly encouraged to lie about their problems to avoid psychiatric stays.

Overall the potential of malpractice of this industry is huge, scandals happen worldwide for example the 'troubled-teen industry' where parents would sign their kids rights away and be KIDNAPPED in the dead of night to be escorted to a facility. Most often the kids had no idea about this and thought they were going to be tortured, killed and abused; This practice is called 'gooning' if you want to look into it. The facilities are often abusive. I've seen a video interviewing a person who went to one of these facilities at 15 if I remember correctly and there were a lot of stories about verbal, physical or outright torture for the patient. There were also stories of kids going in solitary confinement for days and even assaulted.

It is scary for these things to happen and for society to deem it as acceptable and move on while leaving the most vulnerable people in total control of others. I do consider myself apart of the anti-psychiatry movement, I do think there can be help but it is pretty much worthless if you need to lie to avoid being stripped of your free-will.

Well said, and this is the problem about the industry and field as a whole. I don't know any other field (besides government and the legal field) that wields such authority to dictate how people live their lives and up to and including stripping them of their personal liberties if they deviate from what they considered acceptable (which is why I gave the hypothetical example of the health police - only in a dystopian world would that happen..)

Psychiatrists are nothing compared to an experienced trip sitter.

What is a trip sitter?

Mental illness is a tool to discourage behaviours not accepted or beneficial to society at large. Society itself is an organism that tries to self perpetuate, and so people with behaviours that destabilise or threaten itself will be weeded out.

So whether it be the prison system, hospital system, mental health system, they are just ways of keeping the whole show running. Just a few years ago we saw your hypothetical scenario become reality.

It doesn't care why the individual behaves the way they do, it just needs to get rid of or fix them. Society won't blame itself, because otherwise it would have to kill itself. It doesn't care what is good or bad, right or wrong, because it determines all these things.

Regarding mental illness, suppose you hired an actor to act depressed for 10 years. Then they go to a psychiatrist, and answer all the questions as someone who is depressed would. Do you think he would be diagnosed as depressed? Would you count him as a depressed person? After getting the diagnosis his contract finishes up and he acts like his normal self. The problem for me is there is no way to read someone's mind to accurately put a label on it. And yet a group of people self elect themselves as an authority over this and thus give themselves control over other people's lives. Being a person with a contrarian opinion (e.g. on CTB), I am constant at war with this society, having to hide myself so society doesn't try to 'fix' me.

This is a great take and spot on. If society was an organism, it would in fact have to self-terminate, but because it doesn't want to, it presumes (by default) it is logical and any deviation or affront towards it's values is automatically deemed unacceptable and irrational, regardless of where it's coming from. Essentially we're all slaves to the system and society itself is the (collective) slave owner. Us pro-choicers at least in the eyes of society are like rebels so they (society and it's people, mainly pro-lifers) do whatever they can to shut us down, discredit and gaslight us, up to and including incarceration and (temporary) suspension of our civil liberties. It's wrong and I respect the people who managed to check out (CTB) of this sick and twisted existence as they no longer have to suffer anymore.

 

[NoLoveNoHope]

A trip sitter is someone who watches you take drugs like LSD and to make sure you have a good trip and stay safe - essentially a temporary babysitter when you're high.