Method Surviving shotgun shots

[CatTheBus5689]

Given you hit the brain stem with a shot gun is it possible for emergency treatment to save you? How fast would treatment need to be administered?

And from what I understand if you have the gun in your mouth and don't completely screw up your aim it's unlikely that you'd survive right? I can't imagine how people would survive a gun shot done right, yet it happens.

 

[reasonablylost]

I don't know much about the subject but from what I understand suicide via shotgun to the head has one of the highest success rates of any method (in the upper 90% success rate).

 

[Alwaysbadtime]

I've seen a lot of gross pictures of unsuccessful attempts.

 

[Riomhaire1]

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/10.1146/annurev-publhealth-031811-124636?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed

In the US - apparently approx 17,000 firearm attempted suicides a year successful -- approx 3,000 unsuccessful -- approx 85% success
3,000 a year is a lot of very damaged people - would not want to be one of them
They would just patch you up and then throw you out with the other homeless in the gutter - then short trip to a prison on and off for life - horrific.

-- so approx 3,000 people a year now with no hearing ( in at least one ear if not both),
likely completely blind when shot under chin or through side of head/temple ( severs both optic nerves instantly but misses brain - irreparable)
- and probably not much of their jaw / face left
- and if any actual brain involvement --- epileptic fits for life as a minimum
--- on top of any other motor / cognitive brain damage -- and any pain

Great -- guaranteed deaf - likely blind too - epileptic -- and probably in constant pain - and other brain damage
--- deaf and blind makes it almost impossible to communicate - am in pain / want water want this want that ...
No thanks.

Regular bullet in the mouth - could easily survive this - just paralyzed from the neck down - or maybe just deaf and slightly brain damaged / epileptic
Shotgun in the mouth though - should be almost unsurvivable - the gases and wadding alone would explode the skull -- might take a few (10) hours to die though - but somehow some do survive -- I just could not risk that horrific fate.

 

[AnnonyBox]

Riomhaire put it better than I could. I personally would not try anything so violent, for fear of surviving.

 

[reasonablylost]

The fact is the more violent methods have higher success rate and all methods have their risks.

 

[Riomhaire1]

The fact is the more violent methods have higher success rate and all methods have their risks.

Agreed - but a 10% guaranteed failure rate for firearms ( the most effective method as recorded) - and regularly between 30 min and 10 hrs to die -- with unknown pain in the meantime -- seems pretty bad - even if succeed there is so much guaranteed and untreatable pain.
Alarming number of people where multiple shots found - even with 0.45 cal handguns - so 1 shot did not do it. One guy had 8 shots from a .22 handgun ...but 2-3 shots not that rare when you look.
Granted - once trigger pulled - the ship has sailed - dead or disabled - but all the physical pain / experience is not over yet -- just starting
- is not instantaneous like in the movies --- could be literally hours semi-conscious and in pain after that - many are
-- like jumping from a height or kicking away the stool on full suspension hanging - there is no way back then - but the experience could take quite a few minutes at the very least.

Hanging at least is absolutely certain - if undisturbed and rope doesn't break - would be 100% always - only is not recorded as 100% because of partial hanging failures / interventions. Gunshot is not 100% - and even if it does end up in death - can take quite a while of terrible pain to get there
-- not for me ...

Firearms not cheap either - and if outside the US - is pretty much impossible to get any gun for most people - and if any psych history anywhere then forget it
Have to get permit - so no criminal history at all - no mental health history - need a residence address - some states is very difficult / impossible (eg NJ)
Handgun costs around $600 for a glock 21 0.45 cal - if can even get hollowpoint bullets these days - $2 each
Shotgun around $300-$400 for the cheapest crap 12 gage - then slug shells another $1 each - if can even get them

---

Nembutal is impossible to get aside from travelling in person to Peru / South America now - and who can do that.
Swiss clinic for nembutal - with 2 doctors and months waiting - repeat trips needed and the travel / hotel bills etc -- forget it - only for millionaires
Painless - but impossible to do - unless are a vet and can get the stuff that way. All the dark web etc stuff is all scam - or FBI / similar entrapment.

--------
For some reason there are no success/failure published numbers for the inert gas / exit bag - maybe the numbers are just so small.
Seems it should be pretty much 100% -- given how much trouble it is to get it set up - and all the background reading to figure out HOW to actually do it.
Is expensive - and need a place and time to do it. Seems that it should be 100% every time - using an exit bag, tubes that don't leak.

Tank + regulator/flowmeter + metal barb adapter to 1/4in/6mm + O2 tubing + oven bag + micropore tape + elastic

Gas cylinder of Argon ( can't really get gas supplier He/ N2 any more - at least in the US - too many questions)
- costs about $250 for 40 or 55 cuft tank , welding regulator/flowmeter another $120, barb adapter + tubing + bag/tape etc another $30 - so approx $400

All the same - all reports put it as "painless" - absolutely painless -- the only method for which that is actually TRUE ( aside form unobtainable Nembutal)
Pretty much all the reports are with He / N2 and not Argon -- no more published reports I can find - that give any detail.

Only unknown seems to be does Argon being heavier than air make much / any difference
- shouldn't if the flow rate is high enough to jet up the foot or so from the tube to fill the bag (though heavier than air) and then keep out any air and take away away CO2 breathed out.
Does lying down / sitting down make any difference with Argon ...
We'll see...

Found a post on Argon - not many of them ...
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-failure.17041/ -- post #10

Says basically he could not get bag filled over his head unless was pulled REALLY tightly into his head so that it hurt - to seal it off - and then was impossible to pull down over ears etc -- because the Argon is heavier than air and empties out as fast as it comes in -- whereas N2 or He would rise to the top of the bag and fill down from there.
-- so would still work - but seems much harder / impossible to get the initial full bag headstart ... not good ...
So much harder to get a N2 cylinder here than simple argon ...

 

[Greenberg]

Agreed - but a 10% guaranteed failure rate for firearms ( the most effective method as recorded) - and regularly between 30 min and 10 hrs to die -- with unknown pain in the meantime -- seems pretty bad - even if succeed there is so much guaranteed and untreatable pain.
Alarming number of people where multiple shots found - even with 0.45 cal handguns - so 1 shot did not do it. One guy had 8 shots from a .22 handgun ...but 2-3 shots not that rare when you look.
Granted - once trigger pulled - the ship has sailed - dead or disabled - but all the physical pain / experience is not over yet -- just starting
- is not instantaneous like in the movies --- could be literally hours semi-conscious and in pain after that - many are
-- like jumping from a height or kicking away the stool on full suspension hanging - there is no way back then - but the experience could take quite a few minutes at the very least.

Hanging at least is absolutely certain - if undisturbed and rope doesn't break - would be 100% always - only is not recorded as 100% because of partial hanging failures / interventions. Gunshot is not 100% - and even if it does end up in death - can take quite a while of terrible pain to get there
-- not for me ...

Firearms not cheap either - and if outside the US - is pretty much impossible to get any gun for most people - and if any psych history anywhere then forget it
Have to get permit - so no criminal history at all - no mental health history - need a residence address - some states is very difficult / impossible (eg NJ)
Handgun costs around $600 for a glock 21 0.45 cal - if can even get hollowpoint bullets these days - $2 each
Shotgun around $300-$400 for the cheapest crap 12 gage - then slug shells another $1 each - if can even get them

---

Nembutal is impossible to get aside from travelling in person to Peru / South America now - and who can do that.
Swiss clinic for nembutal - with 2 doctors and months waiting - repeat trips needed and the travel / hotel bills etc -- forget it - only for millionaires
Painless - but impossible to do - unless are a vet and can get the stuff that way. All the dark web etc stuff is all scam - or FBI / similar entrapment.

--------
For some reason there are no success/failure published numbers for the inert gas / exit bag - maybe the numbers are just so small.
Seems it should be pretty much 100% -- given how much trouble it is to get it set up - and all the background reading to figure out HOW to actually do it.
Is expensive - and need a place and time to do it. Seems that it should be 100% every time - using an exit bag, tubes that don't leak.

Tank + regulator/flowmeter + metal barb adapter to 1/4in/6mm + O2 tubing + oven bag + micropore tape + elastic

Gas cylinder of Argon ( can't really get gas supplier He/ N2 any more - at least in the US - too many questions)
- costs about $250 for 40 or 55 cuft tank , welding regulator/flowmeter another $120, barb adapter + tubing + bag/tape etc another $30 - so approx $400

All the same - all reports put it as "painless" - absolutely painless -- the only method for which that is actually TRUE ( aside form unobtainable Nembutal)
Pretty much all the reports are with He / N2 and not Argon -- no more published reports I can find - that give any detail.

Only unknown seems to be does Argon being heavier than air make much / any difference
- shouldn't if the flow rate is high enough to jet up the foot or so from the tube to fill the bag (though heavier than air) and then keep out any air and take away away CO2 breathed out.
Does lying down / sitting down make any difference with Argon ...
We'll see...

I have reached the same conclusion. The exit bag method is the ideal method for a painless and peaceful CBT. Perhaps, the reason why little data is available is that it is too successful and the authorities do not want to encourage copycats.

 

[Riomhaire1]

But I would not absolutely never use anything from escmode -- unknown origin / performance / quality parts - no technical / accountable presence - no apparent audience outside of just people referred from this website -- yet outrageous prices. If the flow rate is too high or too low - or varies as the cylinder empties - the consequences are terrible. If it just blows up then it's dangerous.
--- likewise any of the $25 cheapo regulators / flowmeters - eg exploded pictures below from Amazon- I have zero confidence that the flowrate would be accurate or that they would not leak - or explode. Amazon have lots of good ones - maybe at $50+ though. The gas cylinders are at 2000psi - or more - pressure drops as cylinder empties - but is dangerous.

View attachment 71174 View attachment 71176

-- Spend about $80 + for regulator and are probably into safe territory - Victor brand or Forney, or Praxair - or even Airgas ( though airgas a few hundred $ - starting to get really expensive ) - or equivalent EU models.
-- stick with regular Argon regulators/flowmeters for welders -- or N2 dual gauge pressure+ tube flowmeter gauge for HVAC/welding - and $10 - 1/4 in/6mm barb adapters - and regular O2 medical breathing tubing
- or go to Max dog Brewing for their medical grade twist N2 25lpm max regulator and regular O2 tubing -- they have been selling these without issue for over 15 years and are not in it for the money and will resolve any issues you have and respond to emails
- no one else will sell you the basic compact medical grade twist regulator/flowmeter unless you are a medical professional - though it is usually only about $50-$150.

 

[Greenberg]

I respect your opinion. Compressed gas can be dangerous indeed if not controlled with proper equipment. Perhaps, you will find MDB's offering to be superior. Best!

 

[CatTheBus5689]

Are there statistics on gunshots done only through the mouth? Under the chin and through the side of the head seem unreliable and just tanks the statistics for suicides with fire arms.

I've seen pictures with heads just blown off and can't fathom how that doesn't result in instant death or god forbid how it falls to kill you.

 

[overcomingfear]

I've seen pictures with heads just blown off and can't fathom how that doesn't result in instant death or god forbid how it falls to kill you.

If brainstem is destroyed, it's an instant shutdown. You can do it with the smallest caliber, but it will be risky, you'd have to aim just right. The way Riomhaire1 describes here sounds very scary, but i'm sure a 9mm through the mouth would do it

 

[Riomhaire1]

If brainstem is destroyed, it's an instant shutdown. You can do it with the smallest caliber, but it will be risky, you'd have to aim just right. The way Riomhaire1 describes here sounds very scary, but i'm sure a 9mm through the mouth would do it

Agreed - if you hit the brainstem then its over - but it is a small area.
Somehow 10% or so don't manage this.

Or - if you are not treated for a few hours - or cause a lot of immediate brain swelling by chance - the swelling from hitting another part of the brain if it is left in the enclosed skull - can pressure and damage the brainstem that way and end it all that way - if they don't treat and relive pressure by cutting open skull.
Apparently it is standard now to cut away a section of the skull and then freeze it for months if necessary and then re-attach it when everything healed as much as it is going to -- just to allow swelling without further damage.

Sometimes can be hard to remain untreated to make sure this happens - guns make a lot of noise.

The rest of the brain doesn't seem to be so necessary for continuing to be alive. It's amazing to me.
There is that case of Ahad Israfil -- lost half his brain / skull - lived another 20yrs + -- though that was extremely unusual.

They don't break down the location of the gunshot entry/exits - so is impossible to tell which ones go wrong - and which ones might always go right - just not able to find this information. So -- you may be right. Maybe the mouth / behind the ear are best - who knows.
Hard to shoot self in the back of the head as they used do in Soviet executions - but that would hit the brainstem for sure.
Maybe hollowpoint would also be better - do more damage.

Different people choose different methods for different reasons. It is difficult to get reliable information too.