Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,877
Let us talk physics. Specifically: Superdeterminism. The name 'Superdeterminism' is misleading because really it's identical to determinism. Superdeterminism is a property of a class of theories. This property is the violation of a Bell-theoretic assumption known as statistical independence.

Bell's theorem, a central pillar of today's quantum mechanics, tells us that no local hidden variables theories can reproduce experimental observations, and its starting assumption of statistical independence is the assumption that the local hidden variables aren't correlated with measurement settings. The assumption of statistical independence is sometimes also called the 'free will' assumption, because it stipulates that experimenter choices are free from the influence of the hidden variables. By calling this assumption into question, we may find ways to model observed correlations via local hidden variables.

What are hidden variables? These are simply any physical variables which are not described in quantum mechanics. They are not necessarily unobservable (ideally they are observable, of course). Thus the 'hidden' in hidden variables is misleading, and the alternative name 'additional variables' has been proposed instead.

What's the motivation for all of this? Currently the prevailing regime in physics is quantum mechanics. But quantum mechanics is incomplete for several reasons, most notably the measurement problem: there is no description of the measurement process under QM, the narrative is that "we observe and the wave function instantly collapses into an eigenstate (a definite state)". You can see how this is sorely lacking - it doesn't explain how observation works or why we observe the states we observe out of all the possibilities in the initial wave function.

To avoid this problem, physicists proposed that the measurement process ISN'T a physical process...but this is inadequate. If it is not a physical process, then what is it? A...non-physical process? This evasive manoeuvre fails to explain how we observe definite states from the probability waves calculated in QM.

There have been attempts to physicalise the measurement process (e.g. pilot wave theory), however under the quantum mechanical formalism, this process must be nonlocal. Nonlocality means violation of relativity. This is tension between QM and relativity shows that one of them needs to be modified. While nonlocality (the idea that objects can affect other objects far away from them instantly) is not necessarily false, it certainly is unintuitive.

But back to Superdeterminism. Superdeterministic theories offer a way to describe the measurement process in a local manner by way of local hidden variables, thus preserving consistency with relativity. There are currently 3 main Superdeterministic theory candidates: Hossenfelder's 'Degree's of Freedom' model, Palmer's Invariant Set Theory, and T' Hooft's Cellular Automaton Interpretation. See this talk for a discussion involving all three individuals.

So to recap: Superdeterministic theories challenge Bell's theorem by questioning its assumption of statistical independence. If correct, this would mean Bell's theorem is incorrect, and so local hidden variables are no longer ruled out to explain quantum mechanical phenomena in a local manner, and to describe the measurement process. A superdeterministic theory would NOT falsify quantum mechanics, but would be a more fundamental theory underlying quantum mechanics. The apparent nonlocality of quantum mechanics would be falsified, revealed to be only an illusion arising due to the oversight of hidden variables.

Einstein was a (super)determinist, believing that "god does not play dice", suggesting that hidden variables were at play in his 1935 EPR paper. I'm very much inclined to agree with him, since I can't grasp how pure probabilities could or would be the most fundamental aspect of reality, as quantum mechanics suggests. How do you get a result from just a probability? You seem to require a definite mechanism, not just a probability. It surely doesn't suffice to say that "we observed this outcome because it was the most probable". Anyway, the actual outcome isn't always the most probable one, as we all know.

For the best description of Superdeterminism, I would recommend this paper: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139/full. It is technical in some parts, but the general theme can be understood with little to no technical knowledge.

I apologise for this very long-winded post, but I am excited by this attempt to move beyond the mere probabilities of quantum mechanics into a more ambitious and definite explanation for reality. My deep frustration with existence and suffering is really what motivates this interest, fundamentally. I feel that physics should, in the end, provide closure on all of our experiences in life, especially those most terrible ones over which we cry out "why?"...I hope I've ignited (or refreshed any existing) interest you may have had on this topic, and wonder about your thoughts on this, or any related subject.​
 
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GenesAndEnvironment

GenesAndEnvironment

Autistic loser
Jan 26, 2021
5,739
I feel that physics should, in the end, provide closure on all of our experiences in life, especially those most terrible ones over which we cry out "why?".
It can answer some questions of "how?"; asking "why?" might be anthropomorphizing the universe. And unless that Orch OR stuff (or something similar) turns out to go mainstream (I can't judge what is correct or not myself), I don't see how detailed descriptions of quarks and whatnot will be any better than classical mechanics and chemistry when it comes to overall relevance.
 
Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,877
It can answer some questions of "how?"; asking "why?" might be anthropomorphizing the universe. And unless that Orch OR stuff (or something similar) turns out to go mainstream (I can't judge what is correct or not myself), I don't see how detailed descriptions of quarks and whatnot will be any better than classical mechanics and chemistry when it comes to overall relevance.
That's true, it may be more of a 'how' than a 'why'. I'm just really hoping we can get more than probabilities...

Can you translate this in cave-man talk?
Sorry, I can try. Superdeterminism is an attempt to return to a more 'Einsteinian' picture of the world where things are deterministic. The whole quantum picture is fundamentally indeterministic because it suggests that probabilities are the most fundamental thing in the universe. Aka, there is absolutely nothing determining what the particles do, just 'pure chance'. If that view doesn't add up to you, then that makes two of us...
 
A

Alex6216

Mage
Apr 19, 2022
539
That's true, it may be more of a 'how' than a 'why'. I'm just really hoping we can get more than probabilities...


Sorry, I can try. Superdeterminism is an attempt to return to a more 'Einsteinian' picture of the world where things are deterministic. The whole quantum picture is fundamentally indeterministic because it suggests that probabilities are the most fundamental thing in the universe. Aka, there is absolutely nothing determining what the particles do, just 'pure chance'. If that view doesn't add up to you, then that makes two of us...
When you say deterministic do you mean physical/chemical reactions or everything including the actions we take?
If it's the latter I don't buy it, life isn't so straight-forward with something always going to happen, things aren't determined to go one way unless we're talking about eating or photosynthesis or something like that
 
Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,877
When you say deterministic do you mean physical/chemical reactions or everything including the actions we take?
If it's the latter I don't buy it, life isn't so straight-forward with something always going to happen, things aren't determined to go one way unless we're talking about eating or photosynthesis or something like that
It means everything is determined, including decisions. If you don't buy that decisions are determined, then I'm guessing you don't believe that decisions are the result of anything physical. Do you reject the idea that neurons in the brain are what 'execute' decisions?
 
A

Alex6216

Mage
Apr 19, 2022
539
It means everything is determined, including decisions. If you don't buy that decisions are determined, then I'm guessing you don't believe that decisions are the result of anything physical. Do you reject the idea that neurons in the brain are what 'execute' decisions?
I think they help with decision making but I don't think people are fully 'determined' to do something like an animal, sure if someone is educated they won't make the same choices someone with education can make but neither are "controlled" by anything. My view on free-will is different to other views on free-will- I believe it exists but I do agree that people are 'hard-wired' to follow certain things- You have to think hard to be able to think of the choices you will take and whether or not you have to do them. Let's say you like to eat a lot, if someone placed a cake near you and are basically half-awake you are going to eat the cake, but if you stopped and thought long and hard you will be able to make a decision on whether or not you should eat the cake.
 
Al Cappella

Al Cappella

Are we there yet?
Feb 2, 2022
888
Fascinating stuff—and you present/explain it very well. I'm a hesitant determinist—meaning I accept that every single blessed thing in the universe is made up of physical properties and the laws that govern their interaction. Quantum mechanics is admittedly really tough for me to understand, but I do grasp the idea that things get weird at really tiny scales, and that we don't understand quite yet how that meshes with relativity into a theory of everything.

Then, it seems to me, the question becomes whether a) there are any truly random processes in the universe b) if there's a random component to anything the brain does.

I tend to think—take that for wha it's worth—that our "choices" are either complete illusion, or exist along such narrow corridors as to be completely meaningless. Certainly humans will always need the belief in choice. And accountability, without which society rather quickly implodes.
 
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Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,877
Fascinating stuff—and you present/explain it very well. I'm a hesitant determinist—meaning I accept that every single blessed thing in the universe is made up of physical properties and the laws that govern their interaction. Quantum mechanics is admittedly really tough for me to understand, but I do grasp the idea that things get weird at really tiny scales, and that we don't understand quite yet how that meshes with relativity into a theory of everything.

Then, it seems to me, the question becomes whether a) there are any truly random processes in the universe b) if there's a random component to anything the brain does.

I tend to think—take that for wha it's worth—that our "choices" are either complete illusion, or exist along such narrow corridors as to be completely meaningless. Certainly humans will always need the belief in choice. And accountability, without which society rather quickly implodes.
Thank you. I do want to dispute the idea that we need a sense of choice and accountability, as I fully reject free will and the idea of libertarian 'choice' (i.e. could have done otherwise), and feel I am no worse off without these notions. I still feel the sensation of choosing, but believe it to be misleading. I personally suspect that this sensation is due to a complicated, deterministic calculation in the brain where the answer takes some time to arrive at, and the sensation is the result of moving through that calculation in some sense.

Having debated this endlessly and kept a keen eye on general public opinion, I have noticed that this stance is incredibly unpopular. As a determinist, I of course have to believe that everyone's views are simply determined and I just happen to fall into this minority opinion.

I do believe that randomness aka unpredictability exists in the universe, but only emergently. Stephen Wolfram has supposedly shown that pure determinism can produce unpredictability. However when it comes to the absolute foundation of reality (whatever that is), I don't know what it would mean to call it random. But, it's random in the sense that it just happens to be whatever way that it is, without any prior reason. At some point we unfortunately have to give something a free pass as a brute fact to explain this whole mess, as I don't think we can start with nothing to explain it.​
 
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C

come to dust

Arcanist
Oct 28, 2019
454
All I have to say on this topic is on a personal level is that I find relativity and locality extremely depressing. The idea that there is a speed limit on our access to space means interstellar space exploration is never really going to be a possibility. If non locality definitively is false, then we will always be limited by the speed of light.

On another topic, I also find the expansion of the universe depressing. I hate knowing that the majority of the universe is moving further away from us in all directions such that we will never be able to visit or explore it.

All in all, we live in a universe with shitty physics laws that limit our capacity to do anything exciting across the universe in the future. Another disappointing aspect of this pathetic existence.
 
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Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,877
All I have to say on this topic is on a personal level is that I find relativity and locality extremely depressing. The idea that there is a speed limit on our access to space means interstellar space exploration is never really going to be a possibility. If non locality definitively is false, then we will always be limited by the speed of light.

On another topic, I also find the expansion of the universe depressing. I hate knowing that the majority of the universe is moving further away from us in all directions such that we will never be able to visit or explore it.

All in all, we live in a universe with shitty physics laws that limit our capacity to do anything exciting across the universe in the future. Another disappointing aspect of this pathetic existence.
Yep...Maybe we could use wormholes? Idk if that's possible though...
 
OceanBlue

OceanBlue

Feminist
Jun 13, 2021
701
On another topic, I also find the expansion of the universe depressing. I hate knowing that the majority of the universe is moving further away from us in all directions such that we will never be able to visit or explore it.

"to visit or explore it." just means exploit and destroy, so for the best.
 
Al Cappella

Al Cappella

Are we there yet?
Feb 2, 2022
888
You know, it occurs to me to wonder that there's a big difference between accepting determinism and seeing it in practical action. I mean let's look at something "simple" like weather modelling. Everyone knows how difficult it is to accurately predict weather. The ranges used to describe that sort of thing are huge.

What sort of computational power would it take to model even a mouse's brain, let alone a human. I doubt we'll see that in my lifetime, if ever. So, doesn't the issue then revolve around what we can ultimately know? Even if it's been determined what I will do tomorrow, I won't know it. Is there sense to that, or am I totally out to lunch?
 
S

Sakura94

empty
Nov 26, 2020
673
Super determinism is basically Many worlds. See the quantum immortality thread. Really is superdeterminism holds then it reduces everything to illusionism nothing is contingent and the wave function defines everything,
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/quantum-immortality.91744/
Oh I didn't know @amber was gone. That makes me sad.
 
Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,877
You know, it occurs to me to wonder that there's a big difference between accepting determinism and seeing it in practical action. I mean let's look at something "simple" like weather modelling. Everyone knows how difficult it is to accurately predict weather. The ranges used to describe that sort of thing are huge.

What sort of computational power would it take to model even a mouse's brain, let alone a human. I doubt we'll see that in my lifetime, if ever. So, doesn't the issue then revolve around what we can ultimately know? Even if it's been determined what I will do tomorrow, I won't know it. Is there sense to that, or am I totally out to lunch?
Yeah, it's very hard to make accurate predictions. It seems that Wolfram with his 'principle of computational equivalence' has apparently shown that we are fundamentally limited in our predictive power. More evidence would be useful to reinforce this point though, beyond this one man's project.

Tim Palmer's invariant set which I earlier mentioned, also features 'uncomputability' i.e. "no algorithm exists which can predict which future 'trajectories' will lie on the set and which will not".

Tim Palmer himself is a climate scientist and his theory was in fact inspired his study of 'nonlinear dynamical systems', examples of which are the weather and humans. As chaos appears to crop up in so many places in life, he suspects that the universe itself may be one big nonlinear dynamical system.

So we can indeed suspect that the future is determined, but not predictable. The surprise lesson recently learned, has been that these two things can go together.

Palmer expects that we will soon be entering the era of 'exascale computing' which should give us better predictive power, but we'll see. He says that the main obstacle to this is energy requirements for all of this computation.
Super determinism is basically Many worlds. See the quantum immortality thread. Really is superdeterminism holds then it reduces everything to illusionism nothing is contingent and the wave function defines everything,
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/quantum-immortality.91744/
Oh I didn't know @amber was gone. That makes me sad.
Superdeterminism isn't many worlds, they are different ideas. Superdeterminism is specifically the violation of statistical independence of Bell's theorem, while many worlds is a particular interpretation of the wave function to explain alternative unseen realities permitted by the wave function.

In a very recent conference held in Germany, the definition of superdeterminism was being debated by physicists, but according to Hossenfelder the suitable definition is that one given above.

I will need to give this more thought, but I think that superdeterminism and many worlds preclude each other. If you have a superdeterministic theory, there is no need to posit alternative universes because you have an explanation for why the quantum wave function collapsed to the specific state we see, and didn't collapse to any other state.
 
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come to dust

Arcanist
Oct 28, 2019
454
Yep...Maybe we could use wormholes? Idk if that's possible though...
There is no evidence for the existence of wormholes and even if they did exist, they would likely require impossible things like negative energy.
 

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