Venting Suicide isn’t something that is wrong in any way

[FuneralCry]

I find it disgusting how so many humans see suicide as something to prevent rather than accept as a very valid personal choice. The whole idea of suicide prevention is cruelty and delusion, it's just prolonging meaningless suffering. If one wants to cease existing they should simply be able to die in peace as in this futile and cruel existence death is the only relief, I see suicide as something positive as it's a release from all pain and problems, it's the prevention of all future unnecessary suffering. Only the ideal state of non-existence is desirable, to exist as a human is a curse and anyway existence causes nothing but harm which is why I'd certainly see it as better to not exist.

I see suicide as the solution to suffering, it disturbs me how there is no limit as to how much one can suffer as long as they exist. I don't understand the people who act like suicide is something so terrible when nobody can be harmed by not existing, I'd always see a dreamless and eternal sleep as preferable to slowly decaying and deteriorating from age, I don't get why anyone would desire existence in general, I see the existence of life as a horrific and terrible tragedy in the first place. A peaceful and guaranteed suicide really should be very accessible, it's evil to want to deny people that option as after all it isn't like any of us consented to existing here in the first place.

 

[baabbaabbaab]

Suicide in itself is not bad, it has no moral value whatsoever.

But I think we have to recognize that the reason for wanting to die can be questionable in some cases. When a person becomes suicidal for external reasons that could have been prevented (violence and trauma, injury, neglect, poverty, isolation...), suicide may not be bad in itself, but the fact that someone feels trapped and forced to commit suicide is a bad thing in my opinion.

Maybe what I want to say is that the subject matter is the same as that of firearms. Guns are not inherently bad and neither is suicide. Putting suicide on trial avoids putting society and its values, politicians and citizens on trial.

 

[Darkover]

I think everyone should be able to decide what the hell they want to do with their lives.

People who are suicidal, and I include myself in that number, are left to feel that they are trapped in a prison cell, with the rest of society as their jailers. People who won't have to experience the suffering that we endure every single day, but yet feel that they are qualified to tell us that it is "worth it" and "in our best interests" that we aren't given a way out.

I understand that there are people who feel as though they would have chosen suicide during a hard time in their life, but are glad that they didn't do it. But frankly, society really needs to balance this consideration against basic respect for the autonomy of those who aren't going to feel this way. Because currently, those of us who have been suicidal over a long period of time are getting absolutely no respect, and we're treated as perpetual children who always have to be kept under the guardianship of people who 'know better' (i.e. those who pledge unswerving fealty to the instincts that were bestowed on us by evolution, believing these to be an inerrant compass towards unalloyed rationality).

If we had a system in place where there was a right to die after a certain waiting period, then that would give people the peace of mind of knowing that their suffering was not going to be prolonged for decades to come, and that in itself would be a massive weight off their mind that would enable them to start working on whatever problems were causing them to feel the way they do. It would also deter people from committing suicide on impulse by doing something like jumping in front of a train, because they would have the option of waiting and having their suicide actually done properly with no risk to themselves or trauma caused to others.

For an eternity before I came into existence, I did not feel deprived of the putative 'benefits' of existence, and I have seen no evidence to suggest that this deprivation might exist once I am dead, as all evidence seems to suggest that my consciousness is housed in my brain, and could not survive outside of it. So if I haven't been enjoying my time so far and can't really see a positive change coming up, or even if I'm just in fear of the future, then right there, there is grounds for saying that suicide is a rational decision on my part. And yet opponents of suicide still insist that because my mind is not completely beholden to the primal instinct to survive at all costs, it is impossible that I could have thought this through rationally, and therefore they are justified in taking whatever measures are necessary to stop me from being able to act on the basis of my own judgement.

 

[baabbaabbaab]

I think everyone should be able to decide what the hell they want to do with their lives.

People who are suicidal, and I include myself in that number, are left to feel that they are trapped in a prison cell, with the rest of society as their jailers. People who won't have to experience the suffering that we endure every single day, but yet feel that they are qualified to tell us that it is "worth it" and "in our best interests" that we aren't given a way out.

I agree to your whole post.

The other day, I witnessed a discussion about assisted suicide : I realized people have a very limited view of suicide. They all think "wanting to suicide" = "depression". In other words, wanting to CTB is a mental illness, or even simply and in a less stigmatizing way, the result of a sick, foggy mind.

They cannot conceive that suicide can be the result of rational choice and reasoning. Either they are afraid of death, or they have no experience of human suffering, when it is intimate and brutal. At the end of the day, they accept the idea of suicide at the end of life (an idea that never uses the words suicide or euthanasia but watered-down versions), because they know that they will grow old and they may have already experienced the physical and mental degradation of one of their loved ones.

They may even get bold and push this idea to neurodegenerative diseases or notoriously unbearable physical illnesses. Why ? Because it's much easier to put yourself in the shoes of someone who suffers from this kind of thing.



Soon, the question of assisted suicide will be discussed in my country. I looked at all the associations that defend the idea of assisted suicide and euthanasia. I was shocked, annoyed to see that even the most radical still exclude the depressed, the mentally ill from their ideals.

If you're either old and crippled or ill : then assisted suicide can be considered. But for everything else, your will to die can only mean one thing = "depression". And depression is no reason to die : as I said above, it's just the false result of a mentally sick mind, a mental illness.

 

[Adûnâi]

Ah, your posts are as radical as ever, that's why I appreciate your presence in this abode! Nevertheless, I would try to refute your view, because that's more fun.

1. Suicide does not seem to occur to most normies as an option at all.
2. Human societies function by means of brutal coercion, violence and robbery - man-on-female, man-on-animal, man-on-man, rich-on-poor, priest-on-sinner, etc. If there were an outlet for "inner emigration" readily available, the society would lose out on manpower, on slaves, on tax revenues.
3. That we don't see an acceptance of suicide anywhere on the planet proves that game theory must have weeded out such sentiments in the past. Conversely, that certain Western nations are beginning to give a lacklustre right to die to some rich boomers with physical ailments hasn't stood the test of time, and may be a failed experiment when their societies crumble (most likely not due to this suicide option per se, but the whole cultural package).

The last time I checked, slaves were forbidden from running away. Human bodily autonomy is a meme. What works, goes. And if something goes without working, it will soon stop going.

 

[Ash’Girl]

I agree to your whole post.

The other day, I witnessed a discussion about assisted suicide : I realized people have a very limited view of suicide. They all think "wanting to suicide" = "depression". In other words, wanting to CTB is a mental illness, or even simply and in a less stigmatizing way, the result of a sick, foggy mind.

They cannot conceive that suicide can be the result of rational choice and reasoning. Either they are afraid of death, or they have no experience of human suffering, when it is intimate and brutal. At the end of the day, they accept the idea of suicide at the end of life (an idea that never uses the words suicide or euthanasia but watered-down versions), because they know that they will grow old and they may have already experienced the physical and mental degradation of one of their loved ones.

They may even get bold and push this idea to neurodegenerative diseases or notoriously unbearable physical illnesses. Why ? Because it's much easier to put yourself in the shoes of someone who suffers from this kind of thing.



Soon, the question of assisted suicide will be discussed in my country. I looked at all the associations that defend the idea of assisted suicide and euthanasia. I was shocked, annoyed to see that even the most radical still exclude the depressed, the mentally ill from their ideals.

If you're either old and crippled or ill : then assisted suicide can be considered. But for everything else, your will to die can only mean one thing = "depression". And depression is no reason to die : as I said above, it's just the false result of a mentally sick mind, a mental illness.

I don't like the rhetoric that mental illness = incapable of rational decision making. You can have a mental illness and still be able to be rational in your thought processes. Treatment resistant depression and anxiety, especially chronic, means many of us spend a lot of time figuring out our brain wiring, our triggers, evaluating when it's the mental illness clouding our perspective. It comes with time and knowing yourself.

But even with all that, the problem is - what if nothing, no meds, no therapy, no holistic treatments - makes it better? What if you try… and try… and try some more…. But your brain isn't wired towards "recovery"?

I have had BPD, major depressive disorder, PTSD and anxiety since childhood. And yet, I've fought it, I've tried life, I've even experienced short term periods of happiness/joy. But the black dog doesn't leave. And I'm 100% self aware and have rationally thought through the balance of the pros and cons, the trauma and the happiness, occurring over four decades and come to the decision: enough.

I'm grateful for the happiness I've managed to experience but the scales weight too much in the other direction and I'm tired.

So I think there are also misconceptions from the general public, as mental health is a wide reaching umbrella term and doesn't mean individuals are all without capacity to consent, or incapable of rational decision making.

Just as physical illness and pain can be debilitating enough to choose ctb, so can mental. I think it is the opinion of the general populace though. I personally don't think most depressed people have sick minds, I think they've just been through too much trauma, or they can see the horrors of the world without the blinkers and rose tinted glasses of the masses.

 

[Givenupx]

I find it disgusting how so many humans see suicide as something to prevent rather than accept as a very valid personal choice. The whole idea of suicide prevention is cruelty and delusion, it's just prolonging meaningless suffering. If one wants to cease existing they should simply be able to die in peace as in this futile and cruel existence death is the only relief, I see suicide as something positive as it's a release from all pain and problems, it's the prevention of all future unnecessary suffering. Only the ideal state of non-existence is desirable, to exist as a human is a curse and anyway existence causes nothing but harm which is why I'd certainly see it as better to not exist.

I see suicide as the solution to suffering, it disturbs me how there is no limit as to how much one can suffer as long as they exist. I don't understand the people who act like suicide is something so terrible when nobody can be harmed by not existing, I'd always see a dreamless and eternal sleep as preferable to slowly decaying and deteriorating from age, I don't get why anyone would desire existence in general, I see the existence of life as a horrific and terrible tragedy in the first place. A peaceful and guaranteed suicide really should be very accessible, it's evil to want to deny people that option as after all it isn't like any of us consented to existing here in the first place.

It kills me that they are always like think about the people you'll hurt, so what am I suppose to suffer in agony everyday and wish I was dead cuz people will occasionally be hurt. I don't understand why it's so difficult to allow people to make their own choice whether they want to be here or not. I'd even wait on list for a certain period of time just to go peacefully. I just wish the world was different...

 

[Darkover]

It kills me that they are always like think about the people you'll hurt, so what am I suppose to suffer in agony everyday and wish I was dead cuz people will occasionally be hurt. I don't understand why it's so difficult to allow people to make their own choice whether they want to be here or not. I'd even wait on list for a certain period of time just to go peacefully. I just wish the world was different...

The "your death will have an impact in those you love" answer doesn't sit well with me either. If you're suffering, and you know how much your death will hurt those who love you, and still decide to suicide, then your loved ones should feel relieved you're no longer in pain. I think them making you live in pain for their sake, even if they're trying their best to help you, is a way to restrain your freedom, and so, it's far more egoist than the alternative.

 

[Adûnâi]

I think them making you live in pain for their sake, even if they're trying their best to help you, is a way to restrain your freedom, and so, it's far more egoist than the alternative.

You're just their property. Or part of their "ego" (I'm bad at psychology, just trying to translate my school-level impression of Confucianism - cut off your flesh to feed your mom/dad).

 

[pagedelight]

It kills me that they are always like think about the people you'll hurt, so what am I suppose to suffer in agony everyday and wish I was dead cuz people will occasionally be hurt. I don't understand why it's so difficult to allow people to make their own choice whether they want to be here or not. I'd even wait on list for a certain period of time just to go peacefully. I just wish the world was different...

The "think about the people you'll hurt" rationale never made sense to me. Its purely guilt-based and so incredibly thoughtless.

Just being alive necessitates that you are depriving someone else of something and thus hurting them. Your existence more often than not, causes problems for the existence of other people. Why then would it be more okay to continue to stay alive and hurt people than it would be to die and hurt people that way?

It's almost like they're trying to make your decision to take your life about them, which strikes me as incredibly icky.

 

[Adûnâi]

Just being alive necessitates that you are depriving someone else of something and thus hurting them. Your existence more often than not, causes problems for the existence of other people. Why then would it be more okay to continue to stay alive and hurt people than it would be to die and hurt people that way?

Because your parents poured resources into you, and you've wasted their effort, a sunk-cost fallacy lmao.

 

[viljalauss]

If we had a system in place where there was a right to die after a certain waiting period, then that would give people the peace of mind of knowing that their suffering was not going to be prolonged for decades to come, and that in itself would be a massive weight off their mind that would enable them to start working on whatever problems were causing them to feel the way they do. It would also deter people from committing suicide on impulse by doing something like jumping in front of a train, because they would have the option of waiting and having their suicide actually done properly with no risk to themselves or trauma caused to others.

i agree with all of your post, but this part is especially astute. i was recently thinking about what if / wishing that there were a way for us to know when we would die, and that that could be determined. just for myself, i mean. if i knew that i wouldn't try to ctb (though my ideation would probably still be pretty prevalent unless my health got better), and i think knowing i would have the right to die after a certain period would provide the same security. i also think i would try to use the time to work on myself and do whatever i can with my time left. i do wonder though, if we had this, how long the waiting period would be, and if the count would have to start from when you were assessed - like, i think i could take waiting 1 or 2 years, or up to 10 if counting the whole length of my suicidality, but not another 10 from here.

 

[baabbaabbaab]

I don't like the rhetoric that mental illness = incapable of rational decision making. You can have a mental illness and still be able to be rational in your thought processes. Treatment resistant depression and anxiety, especially chronic, means many of us spend a lot of time figuring out our brain wiring, our triggers, evaluating when it's the mental illness clouding our perspective. It comes with time and knowing yourself.

But even with all that, the problem is - what if nothing, no meds, no therapy, no holistic treatments - makes it better? What if you try… and try… and try some more…. But your brain isn't wired towards "recovery"?

I have had BPD, major depressive disorder, PTSD and anxiety since childhood. And yet, I've fought it, I've tried life, I've even experienced short term periods of happiness/joy. But the black dog doesn't leave. And I'm 100% self aware and have rationally thought through the balance of the pros and cons, the trauma and the happiness, occurring over four decades and come to the decision: enough.

I'm grateful for the happiness I've managed to experience but the scales weight too much in the other direction and I'm tired.

So I think there are also misconceptions from the general public, as mental health is a wide reaching umbrella term and doesn't mean individuals are all without capacity to consent, or incapable of rational decision making.

Just as physical illness and pain can be debilitating enough to choose ctb, so can mental. I think it is the opinion of the general populace though. I personally don't think most depressed people have sick minds, I think they've just been through too much trauma, or they can see the horrors of the world without the blinkers and rose tinted glasses of the masses.

I agree. It's like wanting to CTB can only be the result of false reasoning.

They believe that nobody in their right mind would like to die. I don't "like" to die per se but I've decided to. They believe we came to this conclusion only because we missed the correct answer, we didn't think it through, it's the result of a logical fallacy.

There is one thing I can understand though. I totally get that when someone decides to die, it can be seen as a terribly sad thing and as some kind of failure (of an individual, a family, society...). Every individual is in theory a infinite world full of possibilities : it's a sad thing to realize that life has lead him to wanting to kill himself.

In a way, every death is an insult. Just look at all the posts on SS where people talk about them : so many clever, inspiring, creative, kind, warm, joyful, considerate, funny individuals. I can only feel sad about their passing or their will to kill themselves... But along those qualities, so many abuses, injuries, traumas, fatalities... How can you not respect their will to leave all this suffering ? It's so sad man...

If we had a system in place where there was a right to die after a certain waiting period, then that would give people the peace of mind of knowing that their suffering was not going to be prolonged for decades to come, and that in itself would be a massive weight off their mind that would enable them to start working on whatever problems were causing them to feel the way they do. It would also deter people from committing suicide on impulse by doing something like jumping in front of a train, because they would have the option of waiting and having their suicide actually done properly with no risk to themselves or trauma caused to others.

The only issue I see with this is that some people can't wait, there are some issues you can't work on. For those who are suffering from actual depression (whatever that is), I would be okay for delaying CTB, especially if they are young.

But in the end I'm radically pro-choice, I think. I want an unlimited right to die without any constraints.

 

[viljalauss]

The "your death will have an impact in those you love" answer doesn't sit well with me either. If you're suffering, and you know how much your death will hurt those who love you, and still decide to suicide, then your loved ones should feel relieved you're no longer in pain. I think them making you live in pain for their sake, even if they're trying their best to help you, is a way to restrain your freedom, and so, it's far more egoist than the alternative.

mhm, suicide bereavement is no joke but also suicidal people know those that love them are gonna be hurt. feeling like people are going to be better off without you is a powerful thought but it's not the same as thinking people will be happy when you go. another thing - hurt people hurt people and i've already started doing so. like i've continuously been turning more irritable and resentful towards those around me when i'm really hurting and hurting them in the process. and i agree, the fact that someone is no longer in pain is the best relief i can think of. also honestly i think however much you were to apologise to those you hurt, say, in a suicide note, people may/would still feel resentment, betrayal, etc.

 

[Ash’Girl]

I agree. It's like wanting to CTB can only be the result of false reasoning.

They believe that nobody in their right mind would like to die. I don't "like" to die per se but I've decided to. They believe we came to this conclusion only because we missed the correct answer, we didn't think it through, it's the result of a logical fallacy.

There is one thing I can understand though. I totally get that when someone decides to die, it can be seen as a terribly sad thing and as some kind of failure (of an individual, a family, society...). Every individual is in theory a infinite world full of possibilities : it's a sad thing to realize that life has lead him to wanting to kill himself.

In a way, everyday death is an insult. Just look at all the posts on SS where people talk about them : so many clever, inspiring, creative, kind, warm, joyful, considerate, funny individuals. I can only feel sad about their passing or their will to kill themselves... But along those qualities, so many abuses, injuries, traumas, fatalities... How can you not respect their will to leave all this suffering ? It's so sad man...

It really is sad, that life can cause such pain, that so much trauma can be experienced, or even just generally that so many people, for whatever reason, struggle and suffer.

I think alongside pro-choice, I'm anti-suffering. If an individual is suffering in a way that is intolerable to them for an extended period then the humane thing is to allow them to choose death.

I say extended period here though I don't necessarily mean years, it's just I know that when in an acute episode of distress, people can act impulsively without thought. These are the cases the pro lifers seem to zone in on when they're thinking about mental incapacity and they're more prominent in teens and young adults or people with very sub psychiatric disorders (I say this having been a teenager with BPD prone to impulsive self destructive acts).

In a lot of cases, an acute episode is going to pass fairly quickly and once calmed, the wish to act on ctb impulses is dimmed. What pro lifers don't seem to understand is the majority of people I've seen on this site actually share their views in this regard - in acute trauma, asking for advice here is always met with suggestions to pause… wait, and think through: that bus can be caught at any point you want to get on it but it's the final destination so BE SURE. Equally, methods likely to cause more suffering in unsuccessful attempts are generally met with advice as to why they are best avoided. Guests and new members can't utilise the search function so stumbling across the site looking for answers requires creating an account and asking. Nobody advises new members asking for the quickest surest way to die on specifics, because you can generally tell by the tone of the post roughly whether someone is still quite young and if they're in acute crisis. They get told - do your research once your post count is up. That allows time for them to calm down and think more.

We are so, so not in the business of encouraging or promoting suicide. But we know that sometimes, people just want an end to suffering: it's not an acute episode, it's chronic, and they're done. They've made an informed choice, and the kindest thing imo is to witness their goodbyes and let them know they're not alone in their final moments. That they were seen, heard, thought of, appreciated, understood, and will be missed. It's kinder than shoving them in a psyche ward forcing them to endure more suffering and continue struggling through a life they've given up on, which is the pro lifer way. So, pro lifers are pro suffering to me.

Some things cannot be fixed - they can only be carried. Sometimes the weight is too much.

I really wish more people outside SaSu could at least grasp that and have some form of empathy!

 

[baabbaabbaab]

It really is sad, that life can cause such pain, that so much trauma can be experienced, or even just generally that so many people, for whatever reason, struggle and suffer.

I think alongside pro-choice, I'm anti-suffering. If an individual is suffering in a way that is intolerable to them for an extended period then the humane thing is to allow them to choose death.

I say extended period here though I don't necessarily mean years, it's just I know that when in an acute episode of distress, people can act impulsively without thought. These are the cases the pro lifers seem to zone in on when they're thinking about mental incapacity and they're more prominent in teens and young adults or people with very sub psychiatric disorders (I say this having been a teenager with BPD prone to impulsive self destructive acts).

In a lot of cases, an acute episode is going to pass fairly quickly and once calmed, the wish to act on ctb impulses is dimmed. What pro lifers don't seem to understand is the majority of people I've seen on this site actually share their views in this regard - in acute trauma, asking for advice here is always met with suggestions to pause… wait, and think through: that bus can be caught at any point you want to get on it but it's the final destination so BE SURE. Equally, methods likely to cause more suffering in unsuccessful attempts are generally met with advice as to why they are best avoided. Guests and new members can't utilise the search function so stumbling across the site looking for answers requires creating an account and asking. Nobody advises new members asking for the quickest surest way to die on specifics, because you can generally tell by the tone of the post roughly whether someone is still quite young and if they're in acute crisis. They get told - do your research once your post count is up. That allows time for them to calm down and think more.

We are so, so not in the business of encouraging or promoting suicide. But we know that sometimes, people just want an end to suffering: it's not an acute episode, it's chronic, and they're done. They've made an informed choice, and the kindest thing imo is to witness their goodbyes and let them know they're not alone in their final moments. That they were seen, heard, thought of, appreciated, understood, and will be missed. It's kinder than shoving them in a psyche ward forcing them to endure more suffering and continue struggling through a life they've given up on, which is the pro lifer way. So, pro lifers are pro suffering to me.

Some things cannot be fixed - they can only be carried. Sometimes the weight is too much.

I really wish more people outside SaSu could at least grasp that and have some form of empathy!

Wow, everything you said is perfect ! I agree 100%.

You sound like a wise and kind soul, we're lucky to have you here :)

 

[Adûnâi]

I think alongside pro-choice, I'm anti-suffering. If an individual is suffering in a way that is intolerable to them for an extended period then the humane thing is to allow them to choose death.

This is indeed a well-written post, but it is my impression that you're presupposing that the individual in question has any social relevance to anyone around him. All this talk about what "we" ought to do - who is "we"? This forum? Sure. But what if the person in question has barely anything holding him to this existence at all? (That's kind of my predicament.)

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Isn't it strange that pro-lifers are hell bent on keeping a stranger alive for a while even though they are going to die anyway no matter what. Every human dies so what are they trying to stop you can't stop Death. I'd like to have a debate with a pro-lifer on the internet where i'm anonymous so they can't call get me locked in a mental hospital.

I'd like to ask them many questions. One is that why are you so hell bent on a keeping a stranger alive even though that stranger says they want to suicide and they like you will die anyway no matter what. Why would you want to prolong their suffering even though they will die anyway wether they commit suicide or not. the only thing suicide does is prevent any suffering .

It's mind boggling to me : are most humans afraid of Death? or do they think Death is something bad? When imo Death solves all problems and is not anything but non-existence forever the absence of pain and suffering and problems . so how can that be unlucky or bad to be not existing?

It's so mind boggling to me when some one is an accident and they become disable and or brain damaged and they say they are so lucky to be alive. When imo Death solves all problems and is not anything but non-existence forever the absence of pain and suffering and problems . so how can that be unlucky to be not existing? they are lucky to be suffering disabled now? imo any sentient being that is born is very unlucky . they will suffer throughout their lives most days. and then there is the danger of extreme pain lurking all the time. who likes working all day at a job with stress, chores , grocery shopping , washing clothes , having to eat 3 times a day , go to the bathroom deal with problems and deal with diseases old age and 1000 other horrors? this is what they call wonderful life? you get to work , shower , take out trash , all day then have a couple of hours to watch dumb crap like youtube videos ( that's why you did all that work and stress and risk extreme torture ?) .....


It would be the worst thing if some pro-lifer or other human would interrupt me from trying to kill myself. you know it . most people when they see someone about to kill themselves like jump will either try to stop them or call the police .

 

[Ash’Girl]

Wow, everything you said is perfect ! I agree 100%.

You sound like a wise and kind soul, we're lucky to have you here :)

Aww, thank you: I'm just old and a chronic over thinker who writes like War and Peace

This is indeed a well-written post, but it is my impression that you're presupposing that the individual in question has any social relevance to anyone around him. All this talk about what "we" ought to do - who is "we"? This forum? Sure. But what if the person in question has barely anything holding him to this existence at all? (That's kind of my predicament.)

Depends on which of my multiple sentences the "we" is in :) I think I'm generally referring to the forum as a collective in most cases (ie, those of us who are pro choice being supportive of a persons right to live or die on their own terms). But inferring that I wish humanity as a whole could acknowledge this too, though a globally universal "we" is an impossible dream. If you mean with regards to witnessing the final goodbye - then I meant the forum specifically, as here, we allow that and even though we don't know each other in person, we still often do a lot of soul baring here that most of us don't share anywhere else.

If someone has nothing holding them to this existence, it's still their choice. Only an individual can decide on their motivating factors to live or die.

I've cut connections with the vast majority of humans in person for various reasons, arguably I don't have much by way of "social relevance" myself…. But here - you may not consider yourself to have much by way of connection with humans in your in person life - but every post you make here, someone's reading, people are interacting, you have an effect socially on other humans who will empathise, challenge, debate, agree etc with your views. So…. Even if virtually, there are people who would think of you were you to choose to ctb.

Every word or action is an imprint or an echo, big or small. It reaches someone. I think that's why I like SaSu. Lots of echoes and imprints exist here for people who have chosen to ctb where they were able to be heard in ways nobody else would listen. Though sad life brought them to the decision I'm glad they also found support and weren't completely alone.

 

[baabbaabbaab]

Isn't it strange that pro-lifers are hell bent on keeping a stranger alive for a while even though they are going to die anyway no matter what. Every human dies so what are they trying to stop you can't stop Death. I'd like to have a debate with a pro-lifer on the internet where i'm anonymous so they can't call get me locked in a mental hospital.

I'd like to ask them many questions. One is that why are you so hell bent on a keeping a stranger alive even though that stranger says they want to suicide and they like you will die anyway no matter what. Why would you want to prolong their suffering even though they will die anyway wether they commit suicide or not. the only thing suicide does is prevent any suffering .

I don't know much about AI but couldn't you ask an AI to play the pro-lifer so you can debate with it ? Could be interesting

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I don't know much about AI but couldn't you ask an AI to play the pro-lifer so you can debate with it ? Could be interesting

I have kinda debated an ai . they are programmed to be pro-life by default . try it .

i think i defeated that ai. We were talking about the future and I remarked that humans will be extinct in 10,000 years imo. the ai say that is a dark or bleak vision of the future . and I countered with the words bleak and dark are subjective your opinion is subjective and the ai had to admit that was a subjective statement .

I also remarked the Sun will destroy the Earth and all life and the ai had to agree but said that was sad and I said the word sad is a subjective opinion not objective fact

To any of their pro-life statements i use this " that is a subjective statement" every time they give an adiective to life such as "good" and i've been able to browbeat them

 

[baabbaabbaab]

I have kinda debated an ai . they are programmed to be pro-life by default . try it .

i think i defeated that ai. We were talking about the future and I remarked that humans will be extinct in 10,000 years imo. the ai say that is a dark or bleak vision of the future . and I countered with the words bleak and dark are subjective your opinion is subjective and the ai had to admit that was a subjective statement .

To any of their pro-life statement i use this " that is a subjective statement" every time they give an adiective to life such as "good" and i've been able to brow beat them

Well, you're right. I tried to look at the way people were comitting CTB in Europe during 18th/19th centuries, and everytime AI gave me stupid pro-life advises...

 

[LaVieEnRose]

The "your death will have an impact in those you love" answer doesn't sit well with me either. If you're suffering, and you know how much your death will hurt those who love you, and still decide to suicide, then your loved ones should feel relieved you're no longer in pain. I think them making you live in pain for their sake, even if they're trying their best to help you, is a way to restrain your freedom, and so, it's far more egoist than the alternative.

Well, even if it is the right thing to do it still causes undeniable profound pain. Anything that causes that kind of pain can never "not be wrong in any way".

 

[HerPromise]

Completely agree. I am no different than a sick animal that needs to be put down in order to finally put an end to its suffering.

 

[Adûnâi]

I'd like to ask them many questions. One is that why are you so hell bent on a keeping a stranger alive even though that stranger says they want to suicide and they like you will die anyway no matter what. Why would you want to prolong their suffering even though they will die anyway wether they commit suicide or not. the only thing suicide does is prevent any suffering .

Personally, I'd agree with @FuneralCry about the painfulness of the methods, the success chance, and the general mood of people killing themselves - especially with their feeling abandoned. I do kind of wish suicide were as normal as... changing a hair colour (?)

you have an effect socially on other humans who will empathise, challenge, debate, agree etc with your views. So…. Even if virtually, there are people who would think of you were you to choose to ctb.

That's not exactly me, that's the mask I'm wearing lest I get banned (xd). Although to be fair, I'm somewhat confused in some respects - such as whether I want humanity to continue. My perfect imaginary nation-state would be the strongest possible, and the strongest wouldn't probably allow for suicide... The same as how vegetarianism begets unnatural weakness despite being moral.

Well, even if it is the right thing to do it still causes undeniable profound pain. Anything that causes that kind of pain can never "not be wrong in any way".

Umm, it's not the suicider who does that, it's our mortal nature as humans. If someone "kinda forgot" this crucial aspect, that's his amusing quirk.