Suicide isn't selfish, reproduction is!

[migimortis]

People always say "suicide is selfish! think of the pain you are causing your family!" but this is BULLSHIT!!!

What about the pain of existence itself??? People WILLINGLY decide to have children, KNOWING that they will be forced to fight to for survival in a cold, cruel world, launched into lifetime of wageslavery, lonely, depressed, living with debilitating illness and inevitable death.

And why? Why do people willingly choose to have children? Because of pleasure. Self-centered pleasure. Either because of the pleasure of sex, or the pleasure felt from raising a child et cetera. And because WE exist for/because of the PLEASURE of another person, WE are the ones who are labelled as SELFISH for wanting to end our lives. Why? Because our lives are seen as nothing more than toys to derive pleasure from. Society says their pleasure is more important than our suffering, therefore WE are the selfish ones for wanting to end our lives! Bull. Shit.

Remember folks: Suicide isn't selfish, reproduction is!

 

[WretchedDreams]

Not to mention that this tired platitude: "B-but think about the pain you will cause to others!!" is the most selfish thing someone can say because they force you to exist for the sake of others feelings. Totally ignoring the pain, suffering or rationality behind suicidal person situation.

I read somewhere (I think in a book by Stuart Mill), that if you take stock of the good and bad in life, if the bad exceeds the good; then 'tis rational to decide to end it. In than case suicide is always rational and valid, for pure stochastic reasons, pleasure is brief an rare in contrast to suffering.

Following on what you write about the stupidity of having children. Those people are even more selfish because they bring into the world unwilling beings who then will have to fight for increasingly scarce resources, in an increasingly inhospitable cultural/societal environ.

Not having offspring is THE selfless decision.

 

[sanction]

Thats why so many people are depressed in society, because we're constantly being fed and brainwash different nonsense logics since birth. From what you mentioned above, to just blindly going to school for 20 years straight, then another 40 years of slavery jobs, just so we can remain one step above homeless. And after all this effort, just to die in the end either way, as we slowly witness ourselves age and decline year by year

And of course haven't even mentioned the endless daily "responsibilities" that are also constantly required, just to survive in basic way. There is just no end in sight to the amount of different headaches required to stay alive. It is just all forced on to us, but if we don't like it, it somehow becomes our fault

Basically a type of forced torture. Then we're labelled as crazy if we question this type of bullshit logic. No wonder some of us want to go crazy living in this type of nonsense world

 

[Myforevercharlie]

I'm a parent .

And I dislike being called selfish just as much as you do
It would be nice if you would consider that all the selfish people here who have children are in the same position as you.

We struggle with mental health issues.

Posts like this aren't helping.

 

[HighFlight]

About 4 years ago, my oldest child told me that they were suicidal. That they self-harm, and would have killed themselves if they weren't so afraid. As a parent, this is about the hardest thing to hear. I knew they were depressed and suffered from high anxiety. We had offered to get them help (offer is still available to them), but their anxiety prevented them from going. This is my daily burden, and my reason for sticking around myself.

Unfortunately, selfishness is not black and white. It's not that you're selfish because you want to ctb, or your parents are selfish for having you. A lot of it has to do with perspective - your point of view vs. theirs - and you're both right (and wrong). When it comes to suicide, the people still alive are going to be in a better position to argue that it's a selfish act. Numbers are on their side. They can no longer see how much you were suffering, and try to remember the good things about you. (I've yet to see an article about a suicide that said, "the family saw how much their son/daughter was suffering and fully supports the decision.")

As for the other side of the timeline, most people don't think about their unborn infant having a mental illness 15-20 years from now. When we had our children, there was no indication of mental illness in the family, we were in the position to raise children (emotionally and financially). And here we are, 20+ years later and struggling. They will always have a warm place to stay, food to eat, access to medical care, etc. all in a safe and loving environment. At the time, there was no selfishness in having kids.

But I also recognize that not all parents would do this. Some are abusive or neglectful, or had children for the wrong reasons. But the message I hope you would hear is that parents are human too. We have our own struggles, our own pain to deal with. AND we're responsible for another life.
The argument about the selfishness of suicide is a paradox, and can never be solved. If you just needed a safe place to vent, please do - and don't infer any judgement in my response. But I hope that these words at least provide you with a different perspective. Maybe, if both sides can show some empathy towards the other, we can move past this debate and you can focus on make your own choices. I hope that you would take your family into consideration when making that decision. But also that you don't use them as the only factor.

I can only hope that you can find peace in your decision.

 

[UKscotty]

But less than 1% of people CTB which would indicate the vast majority enjoy life.

I don't get why people say making life is cruel, it's one of our main drivers.

If people are good parents, they will probably raise happy joyful kids. Most people don't suffer, they get on with life and make what they can of the situation.

I had a great childhood, some incredible times.

Ending all of the human race because a tiny portion of us are ill just makes no sense. It's also wasting energy on hating and wishing something that will never happen.

 

[MiMif]

People always say "suicide is selfish! think of the pain you are causing your family!" but this is BULLSHIT!!!

What about the pain of existence itself??? People WILLINGLY decide to have children, KNOWING that they will be forced to fight to for survival in a cold, cruel world, launched into lifetime of wageslavery, lonely, depressed, living with debilitating illness and inevitable death.

And why? Why do people willingly choose to have children? Because of pleasure. Self-centered pleasure. Either because of the pleasure of sex, or the pleasure felt from raising a child et cetera. And because WE exist for/because of the PLEASURE of another person, WE are the ones who are labelled as SELFISH for wanting to end our lives. Why? Because our lives are seen as nothing more than toys to derive pleasure from. Society says their pleasure is more important than our suffering, therefore WE are the selfish ones for wanting to end our lives! Bull. Shit.

Remember folks: Suicide isn't selfish, reproduction is!

This is so true. When a person has children they always have expectations. Such as grandkids not just any grandkids but those of their own blood. But what if they're child is gay or what if they are infertile. They decide the future of their kids without them even deciding anything for themselves it's annoying.

I didn't ask to be born so stop asking me to be grateful for it

 

[soverydonewiththis]

"Not to mention that this tired platitude: "B-but think about the pain you will cause to others!!" is the most selfish thing someone can say because they force you to exist for the sake of others feelings. Totally ignoring the pain, suffering or rationality behind suicidal person situation."

Yeah, it's selfish of me. Fuckers. They would rather keep a person in immeasurable pain than be bothered to have to miss a TV show rather than attend a funeral for someone else who was suffering without end. So who is selfish?

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Reproduction is a natural behavior and to call it selfish is right and wrong in the same time. We as "conscious and intelligent human beings" should think twice before reproducing bc we have the abilities to do so. The world is overpopulated already.

I personally never intended to reproduce bc I always was afraid that I could run into unforeseen problems later in my life - mainly financial instability (which can be a death sentence in the world we live in). A child would have to suffer even more under such circumstances.

Not reproducing was the best decision I ever made in my life bc it happened what I always dreaded - I failed big in life a few years ago - and I'm so glad that I have no children who would inevitably also suffer directly or indirectly.

 

[Gonnerr]

I called my best.friend tonight , he said having child is an homicide.

He basically said , you bring somebody from nothingness and he will die eventually, you are responsible for the future death so this is murder.

 

[rozeske]

It's not as black and white, but for me it's not reproduction that is selfish, it's having kids when you know you are not emotionally and financially ready. Having kids is a choice, but raising them properly in an adequate environment should be an obligation. Sadly the truth is in most cultures, especially in underdeveloped countries, having kids is considered an obligation and raising them properly is considered a choice.

 

[sanction]

But less than 1% of people CTB which would indicate the vast majority enjoy life.

I don't get why people say making life is cruel, it's one of our main drivers.

If people are good parents, they will probably raise happy joyful kids. Most people don't suffer, they get on with life and make what they can of the situation.

I had a great childhood, some incredible times.

Ending all of the human race because a tiny portion of us are ill just makes no sense. It's also wasting energy on hating and wishing something that will never happen.

Less than 1% CTB, is simply because CTB is extremely difficult to do. Literally one of the most difficult actions in life to take

Probably on this forum alone, majority of people that come on here ranting about wanting to CTB, end up never doing it, for those same exact reasons. Not because they are enjoying life

Imagine if assisted suicide was legal. You could just walk into some clinic, pay a small fee, then go inside a room and some nurse will give you an injection to put you to sleep forever, like how pets are treated at vet clinics

Imagine what percentage that 1% will increase into. I wouldn't be surprised if it easily jumps to over at least 50% or more in a very reasonably short timeframe. Many people in society are just putting on a fake mask to deal with life, out of no other options. Unless you are brave enough to kill yourself, you just got to keep pushing forward. To cope with this, we rely on different distraction techniques, so its mainly an illusion

It is not that enjoyable when majority of people's waking hours during their younger and most healthy years, are all spent behind a desk at school, or slaving away at some job. Life is complicated for majority of people in this world. Only a smaller percentage actually enjoy it, or are on the more positive end. Its the sad truth

The fact we will all just decline with age, and die in the end no matter what, is already a sign of the harsh reality of life. And its only in recent decades that life began to improve a bit more, as civilization advanced. Just some decades ago, the world was still at war, amongst many other complicated struggles happening everywhere, because survival is not the easiest for most people

 

[DandiFynalicious]

Couldn't agree more. Having kids is so fucked up if you think about it for a second.

 

[Tobiichi]

Every day I meet resistance, suffering, pain, mental torture and radical despair,
I'm a pathetic coward who doesn't have the boldness to look people in the eye while talking, let alone commit suicide

 

[Forever Sleep]

As a principle, I do kind of agree. I think we mostly do selfish acts in order to gain something. I think most parents have children to gain something. They presumably want to experience that close connection- love with their child (hopefully.) I'm sure they do hope that child will turn out to love life as much as they do. You'd hope their intentions were good. Still- honestly, I imagine their primary motive is to satisfy their own need.

I suppose I do wonder how many parents aren't entirely happy and they have children with the idea of them completing them- as an emotional support. I guess I find that a bit troubling. I've known desperately unhappy people want children and I can't help but think- aren't you worried your child may end up the same way?

I suppose suicide is a kind of need too but it isn't a desire to gain anything- usually. Unless that person is convinced they will go on to some glorious afterlife. Most people want to suicide though in order to escape from a life they can no longer bear. You can't very fairly call that selfish (in my view.) You wouldn't call a prisoner of war selfish for trying to escape. Even if that meant their prison guard got into trouble. They simply wanted to get out of pain.

I am an antinatilist at heart I suppose but, at the same time, I kind of wonder how easy it would have been for any of our lives to have taken a different course. Are we antinatilists because we have known a lot of pain in life? Would we really be thinking this way if we hadn't? It's hard to know for sure.

Either way though, we do have members that are parents. I think we should also be mindful of that. It's too late to turn them antinatilist! Plus they very well may love their children. They likely won't be forced into regretting having them. Worse than that though, I've know parents here who have felt ostracised because of all the parent hating. I don't really know what the middle ground is though because, obviously, free speach is important too.

Still- I think we should all bear in mind that the parents amoung us may be desperately trying to hang on to life for the sake of their children. I think that's an amazing thing to do and we ought to be supporting them too.

 

[cjruhand]

People always say "suicide is selfish! think of the pain you are causing your family!" but this is BULLSHIT!!!

What about the pain of existence itself??? People WILLINGLY decide to have children, KNOWING that they will be forced to fight to for survival in a cold, cruel world, launched into lifetime of wageslavery, lonely, depressed, living with debilitating illness and inevitable death.

And why? Why do people willingly choose to have children? Because of pleasure. Self-centered pleasure. Either because of the pleasure of sex, or the pleasure felt from raising a child et cetera. And because WE exist for/because of the PLEASURE of another person, WE are the ones who are labelled as SELFISH for wanting to end our lives. Why? Because our lives are seen as nothing more than toys to derive pleasure from. Society says their pleasure is more important than our suffering, therefore WE are the selfish ones for wanting to end our lives! Bull. Shit.

Remember folks: Suicide isn't selfish, reproduction is!

I agree with you that suicide isn't selfish and that selfish are the ones you described in that category of people. I disagree with this bit tough: "the pleasure felt from raising a child". I don't find that people who reproduce for that reason are selfish. Does pleasure necessarily have to be selfish? Hobbies exist because they are pleasurable. Some people find pleasure from helping others. Are these not positives?

 

[Manfrotto99]

A lot of people don't need to work hard. Many people get handouts all the time, whether its through work, relatives or marriage. Its just that most people who end up suicidal haven't learnt to play the game, or did and went wrong or where just plain unlucky and the odds where stacked against them. I've known many women who have never had to work a hard day in their life. They just married into money and/or got divorced and got a handout, while simply reproducing and complaining when their kids aren't perfect.

I believe myself that it is selfish to have kids so one can pass ones genes on, but then again humans are a selfish lot. For me its not selfish because people suffer, but because of the carbon footprint each individual brings, the impact on the environment and planet and on the planets resources and other people who compete for resources. The planet is over populated as it is and resources are finite. But the economists say we need more people - so we then have a reason to populate mars.

 

[mortuarymary]

There are people out there that shouldn't have kids. If you are fucked up already why bring someone else into this world.
My number one reason I didn't have children

 

[thewalkingdread]

The planet is over populated as it is and resources are finite. But the economists say we need more people - so we then have a reason to populate mars.

I think we should start solving our overpopulation problems and our "galactic empire ambitions" by populating Mars with the one's who are the most enthusiastic about it.

Therefore, I think Elon Musk should make an example of himself and just volunteer to go live there ASAP.

I also wouldn't mind if he could take his friends at the Daily Wire, like little Ben Shapiro, with him, to keep him "goof" company.

 

[stuckinthemud]

I'm a parent .

And I dislike being called selfish just as much as you do
It would be nice if you would consider that all the selfish people here who have children are in the same position as you.

We struggle with mental health issues.

Posts like this aren't helping.

This
Sometimes we have no control what can happen. I'm a parent but I didn't choose for an illness to cripple me to that of a near vegetable

 

[FuneralCry]

I just find it so disgusting when people go on about how suicide is supposedly so "selfish" especially as we never even chose to have the ability to suffer in this evil and repulsive world in the first place, instead we were so selfishly burdened with it. It disturbs me how many humans choose to procreate even know there is no limit as to how much one can suffer as long as they are enslaved in this hellish reality.

Procreation to me is such a horrifying crime as it's something that causes immense harm, it's like a virus how many decide to so harmfully procreate. All they are doing is creating unnecessary suffering, pain and problems, the only compassionate outcome would be to let this species finally go extinct.

 

[nopointinlivingg]

This
Sometimes we have no control what can happen. I'm a parent but I didn't choose for an illness to cripple me to that of a near vegetable

Ok but did you choose to have your child? I'm sorry about your illness, truly, but it has no bearing on that fact at all.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Deciding to have kids is one of the most selfish acts someone can commit and there is no convincing me otherwise. Sometimes I see people use the excuse that "well, most people aren't suicidal", but the thing is you don't have to be suicidal to be miserable. Most people today are completely miserable and the future of the world is looking very bleak. Even if you try to give your child a good childhood you are still screwing them over since they are going to be forced to burden the responsibilities and obligations that are forced on to everyone of us just because we exist. We are forced to meet a standard and we have no say in this otherwise.

Being alive means being expected to be successful, good-looking, intelligent, have good social skills, have a romantic partner, etc. You have to work if you want to be able to afford basic things that should actually be entitled to you, like shelter, water, and food. You have to be thin or else that's treated as a moral failing, you have to be young or else that's treated as a moral failing, you have to be beautiful or else that's treated as a moral failing, etc.

To make matters worse, if you are unlucky you could end having to suffer from something horrific, like burning alive or going into a vegetative state.

It also doesn't help that most parents shouldn't even be parents. The same people willing to be selfish and have children are the same people who get up in arms when you tell not to hit their kids? Really? But then again, most parents don't even view children as humans but rather as toys to play around with. Most children don't even get the luxury of being treated as humans and are instead treated like property.

People argue that not having children means potentially depriving them of pleasure but all I can ask is who's them? You can't deprive something from someone who doesn't even exist. At the end of the day, there is no good reason to bring children into this world. Giving birth is something that is at best neutral (specifically in cases where pregnancies aren't planned or are forced on to others, since they would have no say in it) and at worst it's selfish.

I love my parents but genuinely wish they had never given birth to me. I don't like existing. Being alive is stressful. I feel completely miserable. A lot of things could have been avoided if I was never given birth to.

I'm also sorry if my post is kind of hard to read. My thoughts were a bit all over the place while typing it.

 

[inneedrelief]

It's sad but you know not all parents have the bad intentions to have a child. They do it because of they're in love and because of love but I definitely wouldn't because of the risks and stuff. I think it's logical enough and why would I if I wanna kms and probably am going to

 

[migimortis]

I agree with you that suicide isn't selfish and that selfish are the ones you described in that category of people. I disagree with this bit tough: "the pleasure felt from raising a child". I don't find that people who reproduce for that reason are selfish. Does pleasure necessarily have to be selfish? Hobbies exist because they are pleasurable. Some people find pleasure from helping others. Are these not positives?

Pleasure isn't selfish no. Unless someone puts their own pleasure before another persons suffering, like forcing a person to remain alive when they are in pain.

It's sad but you know not all parents have the bad intentions to have a child. They do it because of they're in love and because of love but I definitely wouldn't because of the risks and stuff. I think it's logical enough and why would I if I wanna kms and probably am going to

I guess it just happens. In that sense it can't be judged as a moral decision because in most cases, no thought goes into the process of reproduction.

I'm a parent .

And I dislike being called selfish just as much as you do
It would be nice if you would consider that all the selfish people here who have children are in the same position as you.

We struggle with mental health issues.

Posts like this aren't helping.

I don't think parents are inherently selfish, if that's how you interpreted my post I apologize for the misunderstanding. I didn't make this post to demonize parents, I made it to challenge the commonly held view that suicide alone is selfish. If people can see the selfishness in suicide, they should also be able to see the selfishness in reproduction, but due to pro-life sentiment, only one view is entertained where the other is dismissed, even on SaSu. The fact that there are parents here shows that many continue living for the sake of their kids, which is a clear act of selflessness. If a parent is dedicated to the well being of their child (especially to their own detriment), I don't believe it is correct to call them selfish.

About 4 years ago, my oldest child told me that they were suicidal. That they self-harm, and would have killed themselves if they weren't so afraid. As a parent, this is about the hardest thing to hear. I knew they were depressed and suffered from high anxiety. We had offered to get them help (offer is still available to them), but their anxiety prevented them from going. This is my daily burden, and my reason for sticking around myself.

Unfortunately, selfishness is not black and white. It's not that you're selfish because you want to ctb, or your parents are selfish for having you. A lot of it has to do with perspective - your point of view vs. theirs - and you're both right (and wrong). When it comes to suicide, the people still alive are going to be in a better position to argue that it's a selfish act. Numbers are on their side. They can no longer see how much you were suffering, and try to remember the good things about you. (I've yet to see an article about a suicide that said, "the family saw how much their son/daughter was suffering and fully supports the decision.")

As for the other side of the timeline, most people don't think about their unborn infant having a mental illness 15-20 years from now. When we had our children, there was no indication of mental illness in the family, we were in the position to raise children (emotionally and financially). And here we are, 20+ years later and struggling. They will always have a warm place to stay, food to eat, access to medical care, etc. all in a safe and loving environment. At the time, there was no selfishness in having kids.

But I also recognize that not all parents would do this. Some are abusive or neglectful, or had children for the wrong reasons. But the message I hope you would hear is that parents are human too. We have our own struggles, our own pain to deal with. AND we're responsible for another life.
The argument about the selfishness of suicide is a paradox, and can never be solved. If you just needed a safe place to vent, please do - and don't infer any judgement in my response. But I hope that these words at least provide you with a different perspective. Maybe, if both sides can show some empathy towards the other, we can move past this debate and you can focus on make your own choices. I hope that you would take your family into consideration when making that decision. But also that you don't use them as the only factor.

I can only hope that you can find peace in your decision.

Yeah I was very angry when I made this post, I watched a video of people calling suicidal people selfish. Sorry if it came off as hate towards parents, that wasn't my intention. Society treats childbirth as one of the greatest gifts we have, but many of us (especially on SaSu) feel it is a burden. There seems to be no acknowledgment in society of how many people genuinely don't like life, to the point people who are suicidal are told that they have a debt to pay to the people who gave them life. Society will demonize someone who took their own life, while not acknowledging the burden that is life itself. I don't particularly care for the debate around who is the most selfish, but if a person is to claim suicidal people are selfish, then they should also acknowledge the selfishness involved with bringing life into this world. I can understand both arguments, but I only see society acknowledging one side. I genuinely don't hate parents, I know many love their children. I was talking strictly about reproduction. Again sorry if it came off that way.

 

[TheSpookyNameGuy]

I agree, it's like throwing a dice and going "well shit, thats a shit outcome"

Yea dumbass you should have just not rolled it in the first place, did that even cross your monke brain?

Or was thinking using too many calories for you to handle?

I notice some natalists are lurking around here, quite disgusting the way they delude themselves.

 

[hiAbbey]

People always say "suicide is selfish! think of the pain you are causing your family!" but this is BULLSHIT!!!

What about the pain of existence itself??? People WILLINGLY decide to have children, KNOWING that they will be forced to fight to for survival in a cold, cruel world, launched into lifetime of wageslavery, lonely, depressed, living with debilitating illness and inevitable death.

And why? Why do people willingly choose to have children? Because of pleasure. Self-centered pleasure. Either because of the pleasure of sex, or the pleasure felt from raising a child et cetera. And because WE exist for/because of the PLEASURE of another person, WE are the ones who are labelled as SELFISH for wanting to end our lives. Why? Because our lives are seen as nothing more than toys to derive pleasure from. Society says their pleasure is more important than our suffering, therefore WE are the selfish ones for wanting to end our lives! Bull. Shit.

Remember folks: Suicide isn't selfish, reproduction is!

Exactly!! I didn't ask to be born. I don't want it anymore. Like Job, I'd rather go back and be unborn vs having to suicide.