Suicide is innately selfish: An iron man attempt

[Abandoned Character]

An argument for why suicide is selfish entered my mind and I haven't figured out a way out of it. It goes as follows:

It is easy to assume, especially as one in a suicidal state, that you are an individual in nature, separate from others and your surroundings. Your suicide is wholey your choice and it is your right to choose your state of consciousness, even if that means no consciousness. It is those stopping you from ending your life that are selfish, as they force you to stay alive despite your pain.

This is wrong.

You are not an individual operating independent of the world. Zooming out a little bit, and perhaps allowing yourself into this perspective, you will see that you have a responsibility to your fellow human as a part of a larger whole (but more importantly, your close community). What this responsibility is is not for me to say, although I do have my opinions. The important part is the realization that you were born into the world as an extension of a system, and this system has some elements (people) that are part of your sphere of influence. Your actions directly affect your immediate surroundings. Your suicide is a rejection of the collective and therefore is innately a selfish action.

After writing this out I do have some things to say about this claim. I can very well concieve of a situation in which suicide is no longer selfish, which comes down to the suffering it would alleviate vs. cause. I still think the argument may force one to consider the blatant fact that your actions influence others, which we can use to make positive change in not only ourselves, but others. What are your thoughts?

Disclaimer this is coming from someone who is not currently in the depths of suicidal ideation, although I am sleeping 12+ hours a day, working on that...

 

[EternalShore]

All human actions are inherently selfish~ One will be nice to others to try and get a good reputation, make friends, or keep a good conscience~
In this respect, sewer slide is always selfish~ However, most people don't view all human actions as selfish~ Only when it harms others is it viewed as selfish~ And this ultimately differs depending on one's view of the world~ In the east, sewer slide would be viewed as selfish as it harms the stability of society and "clans" unless it is done to restore one's honor after a failure~ In the west, people care more for the individual person than wider society, so sewer slide would be viewed as selfish if it is done to harm others or is done when one has important responsibilities~
Basically, sewer slide being selfish is inherently based on one and one's culture's view of the world~ >_<
ofc, I wouldn't personally if I have responsibilities as failing and getting warded would screw up my entire life! D:
but in regards to when it's near-exclusively (not saying that I believe any of what I said or not, mods) viewed as wrong, it's usually when one does it with the hopes of harming others or proving something~

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yes, suicide affects others lives deeply. There's no real getting around that so in that way- it is selfish.

Clearly, we should avoid inflicting the pain of grief on the ones we love. Doesn't all death cause grief though- to some extent? So- parents bring children here knowing it's very likely they will witness the death of all four Grandparents, maybe a few Aunts and Uncles along the way, maybe friends and pets. One day, most likely the parents themselves before culminating in their own death.

But, that's ok? That's not selfish? Because- certain deaths we simply have to accept? Are we still not affected by them though? If the main goal is to avoid the possibility of suffering and grief by people, why are people bringing life here to begin with? When death is 100% guaranteed?

To make a comparison though, let's compare life to a job. After many years of working in a job and making great friendships, you begin to feel so stressed and exploited that it begins to affect your mental health. You try to negotiate a healthier working schedule with your bosses but, they're not having any of it. You know that, when you resign, your vast wealth of knowledge will be hard to pass on. You know your (unreasonable) workload will now fall on your colleagues (and friends) to try and cope with. You know also that they'll miss you. Maybe even resent you for leaving them in the shit. So- what do you do?

Carry on and bear it, risking a breakdown? Is it truly that unreasonable to quit? Who's really being unreasonable here? Would you do it? Carry on soldiering on? Take one for the team as it were?

Once you've had your breakdown, do you think your (obviously highly benevolent, caring) company will support you? (Irony intended.) Will your colleagues? Would it truly be so unreasonable to step down if you couldn't cope anymore?

Surely not! I imagine a lot of people would quit. Bear in mind- we agree to do a job too. We go for the interview, sign the contract, agree to the terms. Yet- we're still free to leave that- no matter how difficult it makes life for those left behind.

We didn't even get that choice in life! Our parents decided to bring us here- for better or worse. They may not even have been able to afford to feed us or look after us properly. They may have (knowingly) passed on heredity illnesses. They may be utterly without skills that are useful in this world. They may have brought us into unsafe environments where we were abused.

Yet- we now owe them and the rest of society a debt to stay alive and play/ pay by their rules? Why? Where does this sense of debt/ obligation come from? I don't imagine many suicidal people are grateful for their so-called 'gift' of life. Because, it wasn't a gift at all! It was a conscription into a highly demanding system they never agreed to be a part of in the first place!

I agree that we likely absolutely feel the emotional responsibility to not hurt others by taking our own lives but society as a whole? Sorry- no. I think my parents made a mistake birthing me into this capitalist/ consumerist culture to effectly work my arse off in order to make rich people richer! A mistake I'd be very happy to correct if only I knew it wouldn't hurt them.

Also- who are we actually benefitting by staying alive? Asides from our families and friends and a few rich people at the top? I'm not rich enough to shop utterly ethically. I suspect at least some of the products I buy or bin were made/ processed in third world countries in terrible conditions. I suspect the same would go for the majority of people here. The mass consumption by the first world is destroying the lives and environment of those in the third.

All I effectively do is consume, pollute, exploit and be exploited in return. That's not to mention the millions of other animal inhabitants on this planet which are desperately trying to survive while humans obliterate everything in sight. What have we really done that's so great for this world and, not just for other humans?

So- I agree that small scale- we likely do mean a great deal to those people around us. Larger scale though- imagine what the loss of a whole bunch of us would do to reduce our total carbon footprint? Imagine how many animals wouldn't be slaughtered to fill the bellies of all the meat eaters. I actually think fewer humans would benefit a lot of creatures. Including other humans in the long run. This planet is running out of resources.

Sorry for the big long vent. I suppose I just don't really buy it- asides from the personal impact on loved ones, as to why we should feel so obligated to stay alive and comply with a society we have no interest in being a part of. One that many of us believe is corrupt and, rotten to the core!

 

[KillingPain267]

An argument for why suicide is selfish entered my mind and I haven't figured out a way out of it. It goes as follows:

It is easy to assume, especially as one in a suicidal state, that you are an individual in nature, separate from others and your surroundings. Your suicide is wholey your choice and it is your right to choose your state of consciousness, even if that means no consciousness. It is those stopping you from ending your life that are selfish, as they force you to stay alive despite your pain.

This is wrong.

You are not an individual operating independent of the world. Zooming out a little bit, and perhaps allowing yourself into this perspective, you will see that you have a responsibility to your fellow human as a part of a larger whole (but more importantly, your close community). What this responsibility is is not for me to say, although I do have my opinions. The important part is the realization that you were born into the world as an extension of a system, and this system has some elements (people) that are part of your sphere of influence. Your actions directly affect your immediate surroundings. Your suicide is a rejection of the collective and therefore is innately a selfish action.

After writing this out I do have some things to say about this claim. I can very well concieve of a situation in which suicide is no longer selfish, which comes down to the suffering it would alleviate vs. cause. I still think the argument may force one to consider the blatant fact that your actions influence others, which we can use to make positive change in not only ourselves, but others. What are your thoughts?

Disclaimer this is coming from someone who is not currently in the depths of suicidal ideation, although I am sleeping 12+ hours a day, working on that...

The same argument could be used to ban divorce or the right to distance yourself from a toxic friend. Your action of leaving a spouse or friend is a rejection of the collective and is selfish and it influences your surroundings. Your ex or friend might even hurt themselves or turn to drugs because of your "selfish" action. So let's ban divorce, and let's shame and punish friends who are not in it for life. You could also extend this argument to employees and thus argue for a reinstitution of slavery or definitely condemn runaway slaves as innately selfish since they were born into the world as an extension of a system. Afterall, it was argued that not punishing runaways would lead to a breakdown of the "organic natural" system of slavery.

No, the freedom of association (or disassociation) or right to secede is a fundamental right. And keeping someone in a social position against their will just makes their position nongenuine. Who would want to be with someone who is only there by force or because there is no other alternative? Exploiters apparently want that. So it begs the question, are we just called selfish for wanting to leave because those who stand to exploit us lose a victim of their exploitation? Think about it, if I tell you that I will kill myself tomorrow would I be selfish towards you? No, because you don't gain or lose anything. But your employer might lose a worker, society loses a taxpayer and threatens to collapse a system by setting an example and your family and friends have to change their emotions and lose a source of joy or whatever you give them. They are no less selfish than you. We are all selfish, so the least we can do is respect each other's individual autonomy.