Discussion Suicide as self-justifying

[banger12]

This is probably extreme and maybe a bit of a stretch but I wanted to throw it out there.

Often in our culture there's a habit of focusing on the reasons for a suicide, which often becomes grounds for dismissing and invalidating the choice.

However, suicide is by nature an extreme and final action. If an issue is severe enough to drive someone to take such action, isn't the fact of the suicide itself proof enough that the suicide was a reasonable response?

Still not entirely sure if I agree with this. But this is a suicide forum and I kinda came up with this line of thought earlier tonight and thought I'd share. Maybe it isn't even as original as I'd like to think.

Hope others have interesting stuff to add to this conversation.

 

[Chaosire]

I have lost quite a few people to suicide, over the years.
For about half of them, I still think it was the best course of action. For the other half, I wish I had been a better friend.
Yes, I am pro-choice, and they made that choice for themselves. But we were all just bunch of stupid emo teenagers and we romanticised suicide way too much.
Maybe if they would've stuck around a little bit longer, maybe if they'd given therapy an actual chance, they could've lived a content and fullfilling life. We'll never know.

I do think that suicide is a valid choice, and a strong choice at that. It's definitely not the 'easy way out'.
I think that is why more and more countries are offering euthanasia for mental suffering. To have a legal and secure way of ending it, but only after having gone through the right channels where they can offer help and therapy along the way, before ending it.

 

[willitpass]

I think it shows the degree of pain someone is in, which can't be discounted by any means. But I don't believe every single person who CTB was in a situation they could not have found themselves out of. Especially those who CTB after a break up or the loss of a job, or those who are depressed but have never tried treatment. I know some here will argue that it's a persons right and they shouldn't have to have a reason, but I personally feel that is rather extreme. The act of suicide shows someone's pain, but it doesn't necessarily show that there were no other options.

 

[Chaosire]

I think it shows the degree of pain someone is in, which can't be discounted by any means. But I don't believe every single person who CTB was in a situation they could not have found themselves out of. Especially those who CTB after a break up or the loss of a job, or those who are depressed but have never tried treatment. I know some here will argue that it's a persons right and they shouldn't have to have a reason, but I personally feel that is rather extreme. The act of suicide shows someone's pain, but it doesn't necessarily show that there were no other options.

OMG, this!
You're way better with words than me xD

 

[lamargue]

depends on the method. the choice can also be influenced by things which may cause you to act impulsively. the reason why euthanasia is so strict is because you need some measure for the competency with which an individual is able to make the decision to end their life, or some criteria which must first be agreed upon by a political majority: on this forum, it is forcibly assumed that individuals possess this competency, partly because -- if it were otherwise -- the original intent of the forum would be betrayed. it by no means determines that suicide is the best course of action, assuming you aren't a pro-mortalist; it only shows that the problems that individual faces are non-trivial and greatly impact their QoL

 

[banger12]

I have lost quite a few people to suicide, over the years.
For about half of them, I still think it was the best course of action. For the other half, I wish I had been a better friend.
Yes, I am pro-choice, and they made that choice for themselves. But we were all just bunch of stupid emo teenagers and we romanticised suicide way too much.
Maybe if they would've stuck around a little bit longer, maybe if they'd given therapy an actual chance, they could've lived a content and fullfilling life. We'll never know.

I do think that suicide is a valid choice, and a strong choice at that. It's definitely not the 'easy way out'.
I think that is why more and more countries are offering euthanasia for mental suffering. To have a legal and secure way of ending it, but only after having gone through the right channels where they can offer help and therapy along the way, before ending it.

I am so sorry for your loss. That's very sad.

I'm sorry if my post was insensitive, I think I worded it poorly by hinging it so much on justification. I just get sick of how pro-lifers get so dismissive of suicide, ignore the causes and expect the suicidal to answer to them. And ig that's what I was trying to express.

I think it shows the degree of pain someone is in, which can't be discounted by any means. But I don't believe every single person who CTB was in a situation they could not have found themselves out of. Especially those who CTB after a break up or the loss of a job, or those who are depressed but have never tried treatment. I know some here will argue that it's a persons right and they shouldn't have to have a reason, but I personally feel that is rather extreme. The act of suicide shows someone's pain, but it doesn't necessarily show that there were no other options.

No I agree that it isn't always the right choice, and that it's an unfortunate thing. However I don't think people who are suffering should be expected to justify their suicide to others who'd stand in the way and that the extreme nature of the action is reflective of the extreme pain and should be reason enough for "on-lookers" (for lack of better term) to understand.

 

[Chaosire]

No worries, don't feel like your post is insensitive at all.
I'm kinda fed up with pro-lifers wanting to decide for me wether I am fucked 'enough' to cbt. A person needs to be allowed to make that choice for themselves, though I do think that it should be reserved more as a last resort, not the first course of action. However, that's my personal opinion and it's okay for others to see it differently.

 

[banger12]

depends on the method. the choice can also be influenced by things which may cause you to act impulsively. the reason why euthanasia is so strict is because you need some measure for the competency with which an individual is able to make the decision to end their life, or some criteria which must first be agreed upon by a political majority: on this forum, it is forcibly assumed that individuals possess this competency, partly because -- if it were otherwise -- the original intent of the forum would be betrayed. it by no means determines that suicide is the best course of action, assuming you aren't a pro-mortalist; it only shows that the problems that individual faces are non-trivial and greatly impact their QoL

I get where you're coming from. I guess I wasn't thinking of this on a systemic level as much as a social and ethical level. If someone is truly suffering enough to take the action I think it should be enough to qualify it in a lot of cases and shouldn't be submitted to "oh but the problem is just X therefore I'm going to take suicide as an option away based on some dogmatic reaction against it"

No worries, don't feel like your post is insensitive at all.
I'm kinda fed up with pro-lifers wanting to decide for me wether I am fucked 'enough' to cbt. A person needs to be allowed to make that choice for themselves, though I do think that it should be reserved more as a last resort, not the first course of action. However, that's my personal opinion and it's okay for others to see it differently.

Exactly. That's really what I was trying to get at tbh. Who the fuck are they to say wher or not my problems or anyone elses are "bad enough"? Thats my choice. Thats your choice. Thats peoples choices for themselves. If someone is really going to kill themselves over an issue it shouldnt be minimized as "not enough" by people who dont have that problem. Hell, a lot of them don't believe there's such thing as a "bad enough", so they approach talking about any threshold in bad faith.

That being said it's still tragic and there are plenty of obvious circumstances when it's not the best choice.

Thank you for putting it how you did because I fucked up in how I explained my thought big time.

 

[lamargue]

I get where you're coming from. I guess I wasn't thinking of this on a systemic level as much as a social and ethical level. If someone is truly suffering enough to take the action I think it should be enough to qualify it in a lot of cases and shouldn't be submitted to "oh but the problem is just X therefore I'm going to take suicide as an option away based on some dogmatic reaction against it"

i think those individuals will always dogmatically reproach suicide as an option because of their belief in individual responsibility. they make the assumption that there are always those who are negatively affected by suicide; it's viewed in the same vein as a disease, in which suicidal intent is a mere symptom that indicates an acquired loss of rationality, which is normally viewed as a prerequisite for considering suicide as an option

 

[banger12]

i think those individuals will always dogmatically reproach suicide as an option because of their belief in individual responsibility. they make the assumption that there are always those who are negatively affected by suicide; it's viewed in the same vein as a disease, in which suicidal intent is a mere symptom that indicates an acquired loss of rationality, which is normally viewed as a prerequisite for considering suicide as an option

Agreed. But their ideas on the subject are morally and intellectually incoherent, and as a result you have incidence in which enforced cruelty against suffering people who want an our is celebrated as virtuous.