Discussion Suicide and those that care

[Sprite_Geist]

One of the arguments against suicide is that it is selfish because it hurts loved ones or those that care about you to some extent - the bold word is key. This has repeatedly sparked the question lately: Why does a person who is suicidal have to be concerned about others that care about them? Yes this sounds cold, but please read on.

For example: You might really wish to be friends with another person; you find that you like them and perhaps even have some form of connection. Does this mean that they have to feel the same way about you? No. Just because Person A cares about Person B, it does not mean that Person B has to reciprocate. You want to be friends with someone, but you cannot make them be friends with you; you have a crush on someone but, similarly, you cannot make them want to love you in return. Everybody has a choice about whether or not to accept or decline another individuals offer of a relationship. If they decline then it is called rejection, and it is something that every person is permitted to do; after all it would be wrong to try and force somebody else to be in your life when they do not want to be.

So following this logic: If we are all allowed to reject each other, to choose who we do not want to have in our lives in the context of relationships, then surely a suicidal individual should be able to choose whether or not they want to reject those that care about them; just as in the same way that a potential crush could turn you down, or a potential friend can decide to block you online, or cut you off and ignore you in the real world. This means that somebody who is considering suicide does not have to consider those that care about them which, in turn, renders the argument that it is selfish toward others invalid

What do you think of this?

...And please bear in mind that I do not necessarily support what I have wrote - I think that we should try to be kind to each other in reality and care about other peoples welfare - hence my total opposition to bullying and such. The question that is posed above is more of a thought experiment in response to what I think is a double-standard in society.

 

[Spiral]

One of the arguments against suicide is that it is selfish because it hurts loved ones or those that care about you to some extent - the bold word is key. This has repeatedly sparked the question lately: Why does a person who is suicidal have to be concerned about others that care about them? Yes this sounds cold, but please read on.

For example: You might really wish to be friends with another person; you find that you like them and perhaps even have some form of connection. Does this mean that they have to feel the same way about you? No. Just because Person A cares about Person B, it does not mean that Person B has to reciprocate. You want to be friends with someone, but you cannot make them be friends with you; you have a crush on someone but, similarly, you cannot make them want to love you in return. Everybody has a choice about whether or not to accept or decline another individuals offer of a relationship. If they decline then it is called rejection, and it is something that every person is permitted to do; after all it would be wrong to try and force somebody else to be in your life when they do not want to be.

So following this logic: If we are all allowed to reject each other, to choose who we do not want to have in our lives in the context of relationships, then surely a suicidal individual should be able to choose whether or not they want to reject those that care about them; just as in the same way that a potential crush could turn you down, or a potential friend can decide to block you online, or cut you off and ignore you in the real world. This means that somebody who is considering suicide does not have to consider those that care about them which, in turn, renders the argument that it is selfish toward others invalid

What do you think of this?

...And please bear in mind that I do not necessarily support what I have wrote - I think that we should try to be kind to each other in reality and care about other peoples welfare - hence my opposition to bullying and such. The question that is posed above is more of a thought experiment in response to what I think is a double-standard in society.

I have felt exactly that. I was told by someone that I am selfish for wanting to ctb because they don't want me to. I told them they are selfish for expecting me to live just for them. Get a pet fish, put it in a tank, let it live in a place it does not belong just for your pleasure. Not me.

 

[Deleted member 1768]

One of the arguments against suicide is that it is selfish because it hurts loved ones or those that care about you to some extent - the bold word is key. This has repeatedly sparked the question lately: Why does a person who is suicidal have to be concerned about others that care about them? Yes this sounds cold, but please read on.

For example: You might really wish to be friends with another person; you find that you like them and perhaps even have some form of connection. Does this mean that they have to feel the same way about you? No. Just because Person A cares about Person B, it does not mean that Person B has to reciprocate. You want to be friends with someone, but you cannot make them be friends with you; you have a crush on someone but, similarly, you cannot make them want to love you in return. Everybody has a choice about whether or not to accept or decline another individuals offer of a relationship. If they decline then it is called rejection, and it is something that every person is permitted to do; after all it would be wrong to try and force somebody else to be in your life when they do not want to be.

So following this logic: If we are all allowed to reject each other, to choose who we do not want to have in our lives in the context of relationships, then surely a suicidal individual should be able to choose whether or not they want to reject those that care about them; just as in the same way that a potential crush could turn you down, or a potential friend can decide to block you online, or cut you off and ignore you in the real world. This means that somebody who is considering suicide does not have to consider those that care about them which, in turn, renders the argument that it is selfish toward others invalid

What do you think of this?

...And please bear in mind that I do not necessarily support what I have wrote - I think that we should try to be kind each other in reality and care about other peoples welfare - hence my opposition to bullying and such. The question that is posed above is more of a thought experiment in response to what I think is a double-standard in society.

Well you know I lost my brother to suicide, my sister, father, and mother through cancer, my younger brother in a car accident, and a multitude of friends through various means, and honestly the grief I felt was the same for all. Deep, profound and debilitating. Sometimes suicide is done spitefully/selfishly but by no means always, and frankly grief is always a mighty and terrible weight, no matter how another goes.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

Well you know I lost my brother to suicide, my sister, father, and mother through cancer, my younger brother in a car accident, and a multitude of friends through various means, and honestly the grief I felt was the same for all. Deep, profound and debilitating. Sometimes suicide is done spitefully/selfishly but by no means always, and frankly grief is always a mighty and terrible weight, no matter how another goes.

I understand what you are saying - your feelings are valid. The point of the original post was not to say that it does not make others grieve or feel terrible; the point was to ask: that if others do not have to care about you and can reject you then why should you have to care about them?

Apologies if my post was not clear with its intentions.

 

[Makko]

Trying to find moral justifications for suicide is more self-sabotage than anything. Your own stance on the matter won't make anyone feel better or worse about what you do.

 

[Spiral]

I think some people do ctb for revenge or because they want people to miss them but also many want to ctb because they just can't carry on living and they don't want to cause grief to anyone but there is no way to avoid it. I spent years preparing and slowly losing touch with people to make sure they don't notice when I go but it's impossible to do that with this one last person. Also, they never asked me why or were concerned about how I am feeling, just automatically ''how could I do such a horrible thing to them''. So they are asking a lot of care from me but can spare a thought to show concern. It doesn't feel right but unfortunately it wouldn't be easy to get anyone to back me up about it

 

[Kbeau]

Anyone who truly cared about me would be happy if/when I ctb. They would understand that's what I wanted. Will anyone react that way? Hell no!! They'll be sad and upset and some will think its selfish. Selfish? Why, because I ruined their day?? That whole "suicide is selfish" line should be reversed. Its selfish for people to impose their needs and wants onto a person wanting to ctb and instead preferring for them to live in pain and misery so they can be happy and go about their business uninterrupted.....

 

[Spiral]

Anyone who truly cared about me would be happy if/when I ctb. They would understand that's what I wanted. Will anyone react that way? Hell no!! They'll be sad and upset and some will think its selfish. Selfish? Why, because I ruined their day?? That whole "suicide is selfish" line should be reversed. Its selfish for people to impose their needs and wants onto a person wanting to ctb and instead preferring for them to live in pain and misery so they can be happy and go about their business uninterrupted.....

I couldn't agree more

 

[Deleted member 1768]

I understand what you are saying - your feelings are valid. The point of the original post was not to say that it does not make others grieve or feel terrible; the point was to ask: that if others do not have to care about you and can reject you then why should you have to care about them?

Apologies if my post was not clear with its intentions.

It is my vision that is not clear Sprite. Tnere is nothing wrong with your post. I just cannot read all of it, and I think that many people call the act, 'selfish' because they do not recognize that grief is what is felt by those left behind. Selfishness has nothing to do with anything. Hope that clears things up...smile.

 

[lost_soul83]

One of the arguments against suicide is that it is selfish because it hurts loved ones or those that care about you to some extent - the bold word is key. This has repeatedly sparked the question lately: Why does a person who is suicidal have to be concerned about others that care about them? Yes this sounds cold, but please read on.

For example: You might really wish to be friends with another person; you find that you like them and perhaps even have some form of connection. Does this mean that they have to feel the same way about you? No. Just because Person A cares about Person B, it does not mean that Person B has to reciprocate. You want to be friends with someone, but you cannot make them be friends with you; you have a crush on someone but, similarly, you cannot make them want to love you in return. Everybody has a choice about whether or not to accept or decline another individuals offer of a relationship. If they decline then it is called rejection, and it is something that every person is permitted to do; after all it would be wrong to try and force somebody else to be in your life when they do not want to be.

So following this logic: If we are all allowed to reject each other, to choose who we do not want to have in our lives in the context of relationships, then surely a suicidal individual should be able to choose whether or not they want to reject those that care about them; just as in the same way that a potential crush could turn you down, or a potential friend can decide to block you online, or cut you off and ignore you in the real world. This means that somebody who is considering suicide does not have to consider those that care about them which, in turn, renders the argument that it is selfish toward others invalid

What do you think of this?

...And please bear in mind that I do not necessarily support what I have wrote - I think that we should try to be kind to each other in reality and care about other peoples welfare - hence my total opposition to bullying and such. The question that is posed above is more of a thought experiment in response to what I think is a double-standard in society.

Sometimes I feel burdened by having people care about and love me, even my dog. He's the only one I'm truly worried about if I ctb. But I also feel like if these people truly care about and love you, then they shouldn't want you to continue to suffer immeasurably just to comfort them. That's why I fully believe that the ones that care about you are the selfish ones. They just want you to stay around so they don't have to go through the pain of losing you.

 

[Zhontafly]

One of the arguments against suicide is that it is selfish because it hurts loved ones or those that care about you to some extent - the bold word is key. This has repeatedly sparked the question lately: Why does a person who is suicidal have to be concerned about others that care about them? Yes this sounds cold, but please read on.

For example: You might really wish to be friends with another person; you find that you like them and perhaps even have some form of connection. Does this mean that they have to feel the same way about you? No. Just because Person A cares about Person B, it does not mean that Person B has to reciprocate. You want to be friends with someone, but you cannot make them be friends with you; you have a crush on someone but, similarly, you cannot make them want to love you in return. Everybody has a choice about whether or not to accept or decline another individuals offer of a relationship. If they decline then it is called rejection, and it is something that every person is permitted to do; after all it would be wrong to try and force somebody else to be in your life when they do not want to be.

So following this logic: If we are all allowed to reject each other, to choose who we do not want to have in our lives in the context of relationships, then surely a suicidal individual should be able to choose whether or not they want to reject those that care about them; just as in the same way that a potential crush could turn you down, or a potential friend can decide to block you online, or cut you off and ignore you in the real world. This means that somebody who is considering suicide does not have to consider those that care about them which, in turn, renders the argument that it is selfish toward others invalid

What do you think of this?

...And please bear in mind that I do not necessarily support what I have wrote - I think that we should try to be kind to each other in reality and care about other peoples welfare - hence my total opposition to bullying and such. The question that is posed above is more of a thought experiment in response to what I think is a double-standard in society.

Good job! You really used your noggin with this argument. :)

 

[Deleted member 1768]

Sometimes I feel burdened by having people care about and love me, even my dog. He's the only one I'm truly worried about if I ctb. But I also feel like if these people truly care about and love you, then they shouldn't want you to continue to suffer immeasurably just to comfort them. That's why I fully believe that the ones that care about you are the selfish ones. They just want you to stay around so they don't have to go through the pain of losing you.

You make 2 good points Soul, and I no longer have any 'pets' for that very reason. Hugs. Gotta go. I am losing too much of what I am seeing, and my replies will become gobbledy-gook. Sorry.

 

[lost_soul83]

You make 2 good points Soul, and I no longer have any 'pets' for that very reason. Hugs. Gotta go. I am losing too much of what I am seeing, and my replies will become gobbledy-gook. Sorry.

Well anytime you'd like to chat, PM me, I'd love to talk to you.

 

[Kbeau]

Sometimes I feel burdened by having people care about and love me, even my dog. He's the only one I'm truly worried about if I ctb. But I also feel like if these people truly care about and love you, then they shouldn't want you to continue to suffer immeasurably just to comfort them. That's why I fully believe that the ones that care about you are the selfish ones. They just want you to stay around so they don't have to go through the pain of losing you.

Yep. I LOVE cats. At one of my worse points in my 20s I was very inclined to ctb, but the thought of my cat and my mother ate me up inside. Both have passed and I've kept other relationships kind of distanced. I really don't want anyone unduly hurt if/when I ctb.

 

[Deleted member 1768]

Well anytime you'd like to chat, PM me, I'd love to talk to you.

Thank you very much Soul. You might want to look at some of my older posts first though...duh. The 'duh' is a heads up. I am not sure you know what you are inviting into your world...chuckle...blush.

 

[lost_soul83]

Thank you very much Soul. You might want to look at some of my older posts first though...duh. The 'duh' is a heads up. I am not sure you know what you are inviting into your world...chuckle...blush.

Lol! Bring it on! I welcome all the outcasts, weirdos and crazies to boot! Me being included in these categories and all

 

[Deleted member 1768]

Lol! Bring it on! I welcome all the outcasts, weirdos and crazies to boot! Me being included in these categories and all

Glad you feel that way 'cause I am following you...tah-dah!

 

[paininme]

I lost my partner to suicide and the grief is unavoidable it comes from love. I hope he thought of me in those moments and had amazing memories but I hope he never worried about me,the last thing I think is that he was selfish or wished that he had cared about my feelings more life is unbearable without him but I respect his decision I am glad he isn't in pain of course I wish he was here every second but not for me for him

 

[Deleted member 1768]

I lost my partner to suicide and the grief is unavoidable it comes from love. I hope he thought of me in those moments and had amazing memories but I hope he never worried about me,the last thing I think is that he was selfish or wished that he had cared about my feelings more life is unbearable without him but I respect his decision I am glad he isn't in pain of course I wish he was here every second but not for me for him

(((HUGS))) Pain.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

Trying to find moral justifications for suicide is more self-sabotage than anything. Your own stance on the matter won't make anyone feel better or worse about what you do.

I am not trying to find moral justifications for suicide. My view on ending ones own life is that it is amoral and should always be a valid choice, so it does not need to be justified in the eyes of others.

Also this thread is not about making others feel better or worse either, it is about the logic that they have - specifically some people who fall under anti-choice, and pointing out the hypocrisy of their thinking. They do not agree with suicide, and I do not agree with their condemnation of it - argument and counter-argument. That is the point in having discussions on forums. Plus there are some individuals that have joined this community after admitting that they used to consider themselves "pro-life"; which shows that you can feel differently about something over time.

It is my vision that is not clear Sprite. Tnere is nothing wrong with your post. I just cannot read all of it, and I think that many people call the act, 'selfish' because they do not recognize that grief is what is felt by those left behind. Selfishness has nothing to do with anything. Hope that clears things up...smile.

It is not suprising that you cannot read it all - I do tend to over-word my own threads. Thank you for the kind response.

Good job! You really used your noggin with this argument. :)

Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 1768]

I am not trying to find moral justifications for suicide. My view on ending ones own life is that it is amoral and should always be a valid choice, so it does not need to be justified in the eyes of others.

Also this thread is not about making others feel better or worse either, it is about the logic that they have - specifically some people who fall under anti-choice, and pointing out the hypocrisy of their thinking. They do not agree with suicide, and I do not agree with their condemnation of it - argument and counter-argument. That is the point in having discussions on forums. Plus there are some individuals that have joined this community after admitting that they used to consider themselves "pro-life"; which shows that you can feel differently about something over time.



It is not suprising that you cannot read it all - I do tend to over-word my own threads. Thank you for the kind response.



Thank you.

You are a good writer, and a logical thinker Sprite. But it really is a failure of vision, and not the length of your comments. Honestly. I enjoy your words to the degree that I put your comments into 'pocket' until I can read all of it. I was doing extremely well this morning, visually I mean, but it has seriously deteriorated since then. Will have to log out soon. You really should write articles Sprite. You are that good.

 

[lost_soul83]

Glad you feel that way 'cause I am following you...tah-dah!

Now I am following you!

 

[Deleted member 1768]

Now I am following you!

'cause I'm cute...right?..lol. Sorry Soul. Very tired. Giddy stage has arrived.

 

[lost_soul83]

'cause I'm cute...right?..lol. Sorry Soul. Very tired. Giddy stage has arrived.

You know it!

 

[262653]

I think that arguments like "but what about those who care" and "I'm not obliged to care about those who care about me" are used with the same purpose, to convince the other party to willingly sacrifice their interests in favor of one's own. If I would be the one who cares, I'd push the latter.

 

[LifeIsAChore11]

And the people who "care" also aren't willing to pay your way through life, or won't even provide you the emotional support needed to get through the day. And a lot of the time, although not for everyone, your parents or other caretakers who supposedly "care" will badger you about getting a job or about other worthless petty stuff despite you being obviously VERY mentally ill. You are in every right to do what you need to do to end your agony, even if those who "care" never can come to terms with it.

 

[WornOutLife]

I'm really sorry for those who care about me but that won't stop me from ctb someday.

I've accepted the fact that commiting suicide must be a selfish act and that makes sense; it's your body, that stuff you've been using all this time to move around. It's YOUR life. You decide what the best is even though you will probably make your family and friends unhappy for some time (or maybe until the end of their days. I know this will happen to my dad, unfortunately).

Having said this, I will care about most of those who care about me but that won't prevent me from catching the bus.

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

And the people who "care" also aren't willing to pay your way through life, or won't even provide you the emotional support needed to get through the day. And a lot of the time, although not for everyone, your parents or other caretakers who supposedly "care" will badger you about getting a job or about other worthless petty stuff despite you being obviously VERY mentally ill. You are in every right to do what you need to do to end your agony, even if those who "care" never can come to terms with it.

This is about as accurate as depressive realism gets. People watched me rot for my entire life and never actually helped me, they just expected me to figure things out on my own. If you're mentally broken then it's not likely you'll be able to function within the confines of society like everyone else and you need real forms of support which nobody really cares about. It's insane for people to expect you to continue living with zero quality of life, no help, and are then surprised when you kill yourself.