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BRuss

Member
Feb 1, 2022
40
If you're unfamiliar with the concept of cryonics and cryopreservation, this video is a good primer on it:



Let's assume that the technology works and that it is possible to one day restore the individual so preserved via technology, whether through molecular repair at the cellular level via nanotechnology or by mind uploading. We know at the very least the preservative aspect of it works - and we know that various animals, including frogs, nematodes and even dogs can survive freezing and resuscitation on much shorter timescales.

If one had the money (and there's a wide range of techniques, and consequently costs, from a $1,000 "brain pickling" by Oregon Cryonics to a $150,000 fully body cryopreservation at Alcor), what would stop anybody who was disappointed with this time period for whatever reason but didn't want total cessation of existence from contracting with one of these companies and then immediately killing themselves?

The legal situation surrounding it is tricky: there are some methods, like aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation (which 'glasses' the brain precisely, intended for use with mind uploading forms of resuscitation) that essentially require an assisted suicide to pull off, meaning that it would only be legal in five U.S. States and a handful of European countries. Aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation (ASC) is exclusively intended for use with hypothetical mind uploading technology, and requires freshness of the brain to an exacting degree - the brain material begins to degrade immediately upon death. Hence it requires basically dying on-site.

However, the more "traditional" forms of cryopreservation are less structurally demanding, though they still require a relatively fresh corpse for success (the way this works in situations in which the cadaver is not near one of the three locations this is done at in the United States - Scottsdale, Arizona, Salem, Oregon and Clinton, Michigan - is that the body is cooled in dry ice and shipped off to those sites. The longer the body is in transit, the greater the risk of damage to it.)

There's also the matter of an autopsy, which this thread demonstrates is necessary to avoid:



The best way to avoid this would be to leave a note or video demonstrating the method of death, and again to do it on location, very near to where the cryopreservation organization operates.


It seems to me it would be possible, again assuming one had the money and the inclination, to contract out with one of these organizations and then immediately kill one's self to hasten the process and minimize suffering (the only caveat being that you would have to have the funds yourself - these are typically paid for via term life insurance policies, which of course won't pay out on the event of suicide. However, Cryonics Institute in Clinton, Michigan is rather affordable at $28,000, excluding the price of transit, which can increase the cost to as much as $60,000 - you would be well advised to kill yourself in Clinton if you wnt this route.) You'd be limited in your choice of exit also: shooting yourself in the head would be out, and asphyxiation, which damages parts of the brain, would also be out. N, SN, charcoal, etc. would seemingly still.be viable.

And of course there's always the caveat that there's absolutely no guarantee you'd be able to be revived - perhaps revival is impossible for humans, perhaps current cryotechnology isn't sufficient for it, perhaps society completely collapses before the technology to reverse the process is developed, and perhaps the company you contract with goes bankrupt (though apparently the few companies specializing in the technology are trying to find ways around this, to avoid a situation that occurred in the 1970s where frozen bodies were being discarded when the company that handled them couldn't pay the bills). And even if it were possible, there's no guarantee you'd be happy in the time you find yourself in. But at least the possibility of trying exists.

Related: on cryopreservation and memory/identity:




This rotifer survived 24,000 years in ice.

 
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BRuss

Member
Feb 1, 2022
40
A link to services provided by Oregon Cryonics, as well as a price guide:

oregoncryo.com/services.html


Cryopreservation

$28,000

This is our standard procedure. The brain is perfused with cryoprotectant and the entire cephalon (head, see Terminology) is preserved.

$18,000 of this goes to the PCF and $10,000 is used for perfusion and other expenses.



We do not offer whole body preservation services.



Alternative Procedures

$8,000 for Brain cryopreservation with no perfusion. In some situations, the brain gets removed from the skull for logistical, legal, or financial reasons. In these cases, perfusion is unlikely to be possible. Instead, we submerge the brain in cryoprotectant for months prior to final cooling. $5,000 goes to the PCF.



$12,000 for braincase cryopreservation with no perfusion. In some situations, we are unable to remove the brain, such as after a straight freeze. In these cases, it is still possible to reduce storage costs by removing all the excess tissue outside the braincase such as the skin, muscles, and facial bones. See wikipedia:Neurocranium. The downside to this is that it takes time and results in temperature fluctuations. $9,000 goes to the PCF.



$20,000 for cephalon cryopreservation with no perfusion. The entire cephalon is preserved as a straight freeze. $18,000 goes to the PCF.



The fees for alternative procedures do not include any transporation or cremation expenses, so if a whole body is shipped to us, there will be a few additional fees.



Standby or Transportation

In all cases, funding must be added and available for Standby or Transportation. If funding of at least $6000 is available for transportation, then that is considered adequate and will guarantee transportation. Lesser amounts for transportation may put other services at risk and may require downgrading them.



Liquid Storage

$1000

Storage in aldehyde. This can be used for either temporary or permanent situations in which funding is not available for cryopreservation. It can also be used when the initial preservation quality is so poor that the expense of cryopreservation cannot be justified. We will accept and store any brain that is sent to us. Payment is not required in advance.

Some of these options are mostly affordable. The alternative methods are mostly intended for the purpose of brain plastination at a later date - you're gambling on the idea that your preserved brain can later be converted into plastic and digitally scanned for reproduction, whereas cryonic freezing is dependent on biological resurrection through nanotechnology.

The ideal, for me, is to die and wake up again in a fully automated world of eternal play.
 
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YourNeighbor

Arcanist
Jul 22, 2021
423
I guess that's one way to get around fear of death, but this is a pipe dream. And good luck enforcing a contract when you're a popsicle.
 
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BRuss

Member
Feb 1, 2022
40
I guess that's one way to get around fear of death, but this is a pipe dream. And good luck enforcing a contract when you're a popsicle.

I think it depends on how it's done.

If you went the full cryonic corpsicle route, then you're obviously subjecting yourself to all manner of vissicitudes out of your control. If however you go the (ironically far cheaper - $1,000 vs. $28-200,000) route of simply having your brain stored in aldehyde by Oregon Cryonics, then it will just stay pickled indefinitely without relying on complex social and technological structures. Your brain could sit in a jar on a shelf until plasticization became so commonplace that it wouldn't cost anyone money to just replicate it, at which point in time (one hopes) brain scanning and mind uploading are possible. Whole civilizations could rise and fall, the people who went in for freezing could have all thawed out long before, and there sits your brain, still intact. (It would eventually decay, but the process of losing even a percentage of its structural integrity would take tens of thousands of years so long as it remained in the aldehyde.)

I would myself be far more trusting of this method, because even though it's far closer to "true death", you are, again, not reliant on, say, the company staying in business, or the tanks not failing. You could sit preserved as a brain for millennia, if necessary.

I don't want to cease experience, but I no longer wish to experience this time and place. And I think any civilization which achieves mind uploading would be a far better place, on balance, than this society. There's no guarantee at all that it's possible, or that it will be achieved, or that your brain would happen to be found and be a candidate for it, but I think it has to at least be considered.
 
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YourNeighbor

Arcanist
Jul 22, 2021
423
And why do you think that a pickled brain, even if it could be revived, would retain any of the information that makes up that person's individuality?
 
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BRuss

Member
Feb 1, 2022
40
And why do you think that a pickled brain, even if it could be revived, would retain any of the information that makes up that person's individuality?

I don't think it necessarily would, other than the very indirect experiments with frozen worms and the demonstrated heritability of memory in small mammals. But I don't particularly care about retaining my own individuality - I want simply to preserve the continuity of experience and to not undergo nonexistence. I don't care if the result would be a Robocop-esque total personality wipe, as long as core sensory reception is maintained.

If I'm right, and I fully acknowledge that it's a massive "if", the experience would be analogous to undergoing anaesthesia - I don't believe that" you" would have any perception of time. And if "you" wake up and have no conception of yourself, then nothing much is lost if you were already massively suicidal.
 
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CiproKilledMe

CiproKilledMe

Experienced
Mar 23, 2021
243
I actually contacted the Cryonics Institute in Michigan a while back, asking them if they'd be willing to work with someone who ctb due to medical reasons. They wrote back saying absolutely NOT. So there went that plan! But yea...I was thinking if I ctb with N, there will almost certainly be an autopsy performed which would throw an axe in the whole cryonics option anyway. Even if they were never able to reanimate me, freezing still seems like a nicer option than being burned or buried.
 
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BRuss

Member
Feb 1, 2022
40
I actually contacted the Cryonics Institute in Michigan a while back, asking them if they'd be willing to work with someone who ctb due to medical reasons. They wrote back saying absolutely NOT. So there went that plan! But yea...I was thinking if I ctb with N, there will almost certainly be an autopsy performed which would throw an axe in the whole cryonics option anyway. Even if they were never able to reanimate me, freezing still seems like a nicer option than being burned or buried.

You could always contract out with them and do it anyway. I believe, if you were to go to Clinton and do it in a hotel room there, they would probably be in such a hurry to preserve you that they might not perform an autopsy. The problem seems to come if you pass away locally and have to be shipped there, which gives the authorities the opportunity to perform the autopsy. This woman killed herself and was preserved by Alcor:


Alternatively, you might look into Oregon Cryonics. I believe Oregon has an assisted suicide law, and I'd bet OC has a more lax attitude accordingly.
 
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CiproKilledMe

CiproKilledMe

Experienced
Mar 23, 2021
243
You could always contract out with them and do it anyway. I believe, if you were to go to Clinton and do it in a hotel room there, they would probably be in such a hurry to preserve you that they might not perform an autopsy. The problem seems to come if you pass away locally and have to be shipped there, which gives the authorities the opportunity to perform the autopsy.

Wouldn't a death investigation still have to be done though? I don't see how the Cryonics Institute would trump law enforcement, especially when it would look suspicious that I passed away in a hotel room at a relatively young age. Plus I'd somehow have to give them the heads-up that I'm about to die and that they've gotta come get me quickly and pack me in ice. The guy who emailed me from CI made it very clear that they were absolutely not interested in working with any suicides. Also--wouldn't they need to know my cause of death (N) if I was to have any hope of ever being brought back?
 
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BRuss

Member
Feb 1, 2022
40
You may very well be right about that. My inclination, then, would be to Oregon and do the brain in the jar; I wouldn't mention anything about suicide while thee, I'd just get a room in town after contracting out, do it, and leave a note in my pocket indicating my wishes. But that's me.
 
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CiproKilledMe

CiproKilledMe

Experienced
Mar 23, 2021
243
You may very well be right about that. My inclination, then, would be to Oregon and do the brain in the jar; I wouldn't mention anything about suicide while thee, I'd just get a room in town after contracting out, do it, and leave a note in my pocket indicating my wishes. But that's me.

I personally can't travel to Oregon because I'm severely disabled, but even if a person could I still don't see how it would work. The cryonics team basically has to be on standby, waiting for you to die so that they can put you on ice as quickly as possible. There's no way to have them on standby waiting for you to ctb in a hotel room. By the time your body was discovered you'd be too far gone to ever be brought back. In an ideal world we'd be able to be euthanized right at the cryonics center ("cryonasia") but clearly we're not living in an ideal world.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
8,834
How would reincarnation work with cryonics?
 

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