Discussion Social rules

[DoNotLet2]

Hi
I'm autistic, never had any friends. My "psychologist" told me there are social rules, and I do not obey them, and that's my problem.
Well, it seems logical, right? But I know a few individuals with glaringly psychopathic traits. They're known to be liars, they bully, harm people, are unreliable etc. And they all are likes, have friends, good positions in society. So I have a mindfuck. How is this possible? Does anyone know?

 

[Sideswipe]

I am told I don't stick to "social norms" and I don't understand the rules either. I just get told to learn through lived experience.. well so far I have learned I hate humans Ha!

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Hi
I'm autistic, never had any friends. My "psychologist" told me there are social rules, and I do not obey them, and that's my problem.
Well, it seems logical, right? But I know a few individuals with glaringly psychopathic traits. They're known to be liars, they bully, harm people, are unreliable etc. And they all are likes, have friends, good positions in society. So I have a mindfuck. How is this possible? Does anyone know?

They probably exhibit some form of bravado, alpha behaviorism, strong personality characteristics, wealth, or good looks. Or perphaps they possess a combination there of. People latch onto certain traits and most leaders or boss types are scientifically shown to have psychopath type traits.

 

[Sideswipe]

Very True!!

 

[Nemeshisu]

These social norms are a way to control people. Without them there would chaos and people would just do what they want. But the biggest problem with these so called ,,social norms" is that they are not always quite obvious. And sometimes they are even plainly stupid. I mean some rules are obvious because we are told that it is wrong to hurt others. But most of them are learned through experience aka ,,social interaction". However, what is ironic is that those that may simply do not understand these rules are denied opportunity to social interaction, only way to learn them in first place.

But some may also question these rules. Why I am supposed to act certain way in certain setting? Isn't that actually fake behaviour?
Social norms can also be difficult to understand because other people except us to act like ,,normal human" not like ourselves. And acting in such fake way is the only way to stay alive. Man must be fake in order to stay alive. If you do not adhere to social norms you may have trouble finding job in the future, getting loving partner etc.

As for Psychopats that do not respect social norms well....they often have some kind of power. For example they ma be very wealthy or be manipulative. If you have the power then you can pretty much abuse social rules to some degree.

 

[Sensei]

It's my experience that people who understand social rules perfectly well seldom if ever are interesting. If we look at the great men and women in history, most of them have been misfits socially or otherwise. Some rather obvious examples: Isaac Newton (probably autistic), Albert Einstein (probably autistic), Elizabeth I, George Orwell, Mother Theresa, Ada Lovelace, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Nikola Tesla, Winston Churchill, Helen Keller, Jean d'Arc, and Leonardo da Vinci.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Well it's kinda venting not only discussion. Because I find it very annoying. I can't say things to neurotypical and normal people that would hurt them. You know "you're ugly" and so on. But when they tell it to me it's fine. They can insult me. And that makes me incensed to extreme degree.

They probably exhibit some form of bravado, alpha behaviorism, strong personality characteristics, wealth, or good looks. Or perphaps they possess a combination there of. People latch onto certain traits and most leaders or boss types are scientifically shown to have psychopath type traits.

So you say it might be caused by their power? They can do so because they rule? Well that makes sense.

These social norms are a way to control people. Without them there would chaos and people would just do what they want. But the biggest problem with these so called ,,social norms" is that they are not always quite obvious. And sometimes they are even plainly stupid. I mean some rules are obvious because we are told that it is wrong to hurt others. But most of them are learned through experience aka ,,social interaction". However, what is ironic is that those that may simply do not understand these rules are denied opportunity to social interaction, only way to learn them in first place.

But some may also question these rules. Why I am supposed to act certain way in certain setting? Isn't that actually fake behaviour?
Social norms can also be difficult to understand because other people except us to act like ,,normal human" not like ourselves. And acting in such fake way is the only way to stay alive. Man must be fake in order to stay alive. If you do not adhere to social norms you may have trouble finding job in the future, getting loving partner etc.

As for Psychopats that do not respect social norms well....they often have some kind of power. For example they ma be very wealthy or be manipulative. If you have the power then you can pretty much abuse social rules to some degree.

Oh I'm doing a course about autism on futurelearn.com. They posed a question (let me paraphrase) "are neurotypicals the problem?". You see we, people with autism tend to be more honest when neurotypicals tend to lie to play the social game. We want an employee that is honest, we want a friend or partner that is honest and so on but neurotypicals tend to choose other neurotypicals that are liars! Maybe neurotypicals are the problem, maybe there are disabled? They can't communicate straight.

It's my experience that people who understand social rules perfectly well seldom if ever are interesting. If we look at the great men and women in history, most of them have been misfits socially or otherwise. Some rather obvious examples: Isaac Newton (probably autistic), Albert Einstein (probably autistic), Elizabeth I, George Orwell, Mother Theresa, Ada Lovelace, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Nikola Tesla, Winston Churchill, Helen Keller, Jean d'Arc, and Leonardo da Vinci.

ooo thanks that's comforting. Unfortunately the times when you could achieve greatness alone are gone. Now it's the team work that is valuable and priced.

 

[Sensei]

ooo thanks that's comforting. Unfortunately the times when you could achieve greatness alone are gone. Now it's the team work that is valuable and priced.

Unfortunately, I think you mostly are right about this. However, there are still some fields in which you can excel without having social skills. You can e.g. become an author or an inventor.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Well but excelling isn't the point of my life. I still can achieve greatness but I want friends to celebrate with.

 

[thelastchicken]

Well but excelling isn't the point of my life. I still can achieve greatness but I want friends to celebrate with.

Damn. Touché

 

[monotaur]

Hello, I know, oldish topic, still wanted to agree that nowadays it seems being able to perform socially is considered equally if not more valuable in a job environment (and in society in general) than actually being good at your work. It seems it didn't use to be so socially and teamwork focused decades ago. I'm autistic too and that's been my experience immediately when stumbling into my first jobs. Having good technical skills wasn't enough, I just couldn't deal with the constant pressure and social expectations and had to quit the job after experiencing mobbing and having meltdowns (in the bathroom) at work. It's just comforting not being alone in this, at least

 

[DoNotLet2]

I mean it's not oldish.
I haven't had a job yet but I'm afraid of having job.

 

[TAW122]

I'm autistic myself and have Aspergers as well. To answer your questions, I don't really the answers. Society just sucks and I can't really conform or follow the (unwritten and unspoken) rules, that people just seem to get. Others may have better answers and what not though.

They probably exhibit some form of bravado, alpha behaviorism, strong personality characteristics, wealth, or good looks. Or perphaps they possess a combination there of. People latch onto certain traits and most leaders or boss types are scientifically shown to have psychopath type traits.

Yeah that's pretty much true. I think that most societies have leaders and to lead a group of people, they oftenly have some of these characteristics sadly. I think it's just like in the animal kingdom (once you strip the social conditioning, civility, rules, and laws), where the strong rule over the weak (in most cases).

These social norms are a way to control people. Without them there would chaos and people would just do what they want. But the biggest problem with these so called ,,social norms" is that they are not always quite obvious. And sometimes they are even plainly stupid. I mean some rules are obvious because we are told that it is wrong to hurt others. But most of them are learned through experience aka ,,social interaction". However, what is ironic is that those that may simply do not understand these rules are denied opportunity to social interaction, only way to learn them in first place.

But some may also question these rules. Why I am supposed to act certain way in certain setting? Isn't that actually fake behaviour?
Social norms can also be difficult to understand because other people except us to act like ,,normal human" not like ourselves. And acting in such fake way is the only way to stay alive. Man must be fake in order to stay alive. If you do not adhere to social norms you may have trouble finding job in the future, getting loving partner etc.

As for Psychopats that do not respect social norms well....they often have some kind of power. For example they ma be very wealthy or be manipulative. If you have the power then you can pretty much abuse social rules to some degree.

Good post and yes, to some degree some social norms are necessary to keep a civil society, but when there are many rules about what can and can't be done, things become too complicated. I understand the irony and ever since I fell behind (owing it social anxiety and Aspergers, autism), sometime in middle school/early high school, I stopped giving a shit about how following social norms because:
1) I couldn't, it's too complex for me, I just don't get it...
2) I don't always agree with things done, sometimes it just makes no sense.

 

[netrezven]

There are rules on the surface, that don't matter. On the deeper level are lies, abuse, manipulation and pretending to be what you are not. Those who do it better win.

 

[DoNotLet2]

And something in my mind wants very hard to be able to fit in even though it is greatly aware it isn't anything good.

 

[terry_a_davis]

I've never had good social skills (unless i was high) but in 1 job it worked well for me. Instead of going on scheduled breaks i would work through them as i found socialising in the canteen awkward. This was spotted by management who thought i was just a very hard worker, i got promoted eventually.
Computing jobs like programming are good for introverts but even this requires some human interaction.

 

[Sensei]

And something in my mind wants very hard to be able to fit in even though it is greatly aware it isn't anything good.

I can really relate, so much that I almost cry blood. No matter how strong and self-sufficient we become, some part of us will always miss the flock.

 

[Jean4]

You fit in with me and I'm your friend. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. You are you. Unique. Just like everyone is.

Who wants to follow society rules anyway? Conforming takes away your uniqueness.

 

[Apollo D. Ryker]

Double standards...

 

[DoNotLet2]

Double standards...

Omg, you're so right xd I always felt it is so

 

[peacefully31425]

It's possible to both know the rules and be a bad person. Just because you don't know the rules, doesn't mean you're a bad person. I'd say that unless your social ineptitude is getting in the way of you being happy, don't sweat it too much.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

My "psychologist" told me there are social rules, and I do not obey them, and that's my problem.

Did your "psychologist" tell you what the (supposed) rules are?

 

[one4all]

My first response is.. "why be normal".. the second is "what is normal"?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

These are IMHO the best social rules, the five precepts of Buddhism, which were adapted from other Indian traditions such as Jainism. They're about practicing healthy boundaries and being safe for others by doing no harm.

Do not kill.
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not engage in sexual misconduct.
Do not use intoxicating substances (which lower inhibitions and lead one to cross others' boundaries and one's own).

 

[one4all]

These are IMHO the best social rules, the five precepts of Buddhism, which were adapted from other Indian traditions such as Jainism. They're about practicing healthy boundaries and being safe for others by doing no harm.

Do not kill.
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not engage in sexual misconduct.
Do not use intoxicating substances (which lower inhibitions and lead one to cross others' boundaries and one's own).

I thought "Karma is a Beatch" was also in their.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Did your "psychologist" tell you what the (supposed) rules are?

no :(

My first response is.. "why be normal".. the second is "what is normal"?

because i want people to give a fuck about me. it's like i am always talking to myself because there is no one else to talk, even here on SS. And I'm lonely.
Normal is when you aren't either hated or ignored. When despite your flaws there are people who care about you. I don't know can't define.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

no :(

From your OP:
My "psychologist" told me there are social rules, and I do not obey them, and that's my problem.

You replied to me here with a sad no that the "psychologist" did not tell you the rules.

No wonder there's confusion and sadness. You asked for help. You were shamed. You were called disobedient. What are you, a misbehaving dog at his/her feet? (Spoiler alert: No. Absolutely NO.)

You talked to someone whose job is to help by providing tools so one can have a better life, not be made impotent and feeling worse.

I love that you put "psychologist" in quotes. There are far more apt titles. Abuser, manipulator, disinformation specialist, and hegemonic power shill come to mind. That's a person I'd steer clear of.

In my experience, confusion and self-questioning leading to mindfucks are symptoms of having experienced another's attempt to manipulate and control me. No one who causes that has intentions toward promoting or serving my best interests.

 

[Otter]

There's thousands of like-minded travelers as you out there. You just haven't found them yet!

 

[DoNotLet2]

I know she is dumb and I never understood why she liked other patients and not me. I avoid going to the "therapy" as often as possible. And you know it still does hurt when someone tells you so even if you know they are dumb and manipulative. But i didn't fall into that manipulation. I am just hurt very deeply.

But there is really a problem with me. I'm an extrovert, I don't like being isolated so why am I so much isolated? I don't wanna live. It's not fair.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Can you find another therapist who may actually have and give you the tools to attain what you seek?