SN or Inert Gas? I have both

[Msvr]

I will soon have access to both SN and N2. I already have all the part for my N2 setup (including 40 cu ft tank of gas,) except one part which arrives tomorrow. I also managed to find the DMC source by clues on various threads throughout the forum. I just ordered that a couple days ago and will have access to the other required medications such as meto and cimetidine.

Now initially I was only interested in the SN method. However I read a couple other threads on this forum comparing the two and most seemed to prefer the inert gas. After researching further I became more comfortable with the inert gas method and would be willing to try it. Still the SN sounds better to me. It will be nice to drink a glass of water and nearly peacefully fall asleep. The downsides are more time for SI to kick in, and the somewhat questionable feelings and pains during the final minutes. @CocoToxBase has a couple good write up about her SN near-deaths. Sorry those didn't go as you wanted.
On the other hand there are several things I'm not a fan of with the inert gas method. I would be happy with a sarco pod, but the exit bag is slightly scary.
- If I mess up it can cause serious brain damage.
- I'd much rather my body be found peacefully laying in bed instead of strapped up to a beach chair like Frankenstein
- The inert gas method is very loud, right next to you
- I'd have to strap myself to a chair to be safe. What if I strap myself, fail, and cant get up. What if SI kicks in and i can't escape in the few seconds before unconsciousness

So those are my personal downsides for each. What do you guys think?

 

[Msvr]

bump

 

[rosepanda]

I'd personally go with inert gas, based on what I've read. Ultimately its your decision. If you think SN sounds better, then use SN.

 

[ctbusser]

Gas is peaceful, you just black out in few seconds. SN probably tastes awful + vomiting and too much time to wait.

 

[Wolf Girl]

SN is usually not entirely free from discomfort in the brief time before losing consciousness, so N2 is probably the better option.

 

[hadenoughscotland]

Gass what kind of gas

 

[Msvr]

Gass what kind of gas

N2, I think I've decided that this will be my method

 

[Msvr]

Why would inert gas be loud? SN would probably be louder if you started vomiting.

I just have seen other threads saying it's loud or people being worried about neighbors. And if you just open the nozzle up it is loud. But coming out of a small tube at only 15 lpm it's pretty quiet. Still, probably recommended to have earplugs as the tub will be right next to your ear. I'll wear earplugs or headphones.

 

[MBG]

Only skimmed the OP. Thoughts:
AFAIK no one has used the Sarco yet. First use likely before the end of this year. Might want to see how that goes first.

Sarco requires trip to Switzerland (other clinics require round trip tickets in case you change your mind), hotel stay, passport (takes months to get), etc. ($$$).

Only one person has been executed using N2 so far (in AL last January). Second is scheduled for Sept 26 and third for Nov 21. Might want to see how those go first.

 

[IwantHappiness]

N2, I think I've decided that this will be my method

hi, how much did it cost?

 

[Msvr]

hi, how much did it cost?

Around $500 for everything, that includes a reclining chairs, straps, and the N2 setup. But the tank is rented. Hopefully it gets returned after I CTB, but it's a multi-billion dollar national company so it'll be ok if not. If you bought the tank outright add an extra $1-300

 

[destinationlosangel]

Ok I may be able to speak on this since I have thought about both methods for my own ctb.

I went with N2 initially but now I have switched to SN. N2 just is so hard to get right and also the bag/mask over head doesnt seem like fun for me.

with sn, just drink it n wait 20 minutes n I can go to sleep forever. its not smooth like n2 but there's so many thing that could go wrong with n2 atleast for me.

 

[Romanticize]

inert gas 100%.
Be sure to:
1) strap the canister to a bed or chair leg, so if u lose consciosuness, it still stays.
2) set reductor valve to 15-20 L/min.
3) put a very small hole, maybe pencil size or smaller 2-5mm on the top of the bag, so that used air/CO2 will come out, and new inert gas will have space to go inside the bag.
4) secure the bag firmly on your neck, in 30s-1min the bag will get full and you dont want it to be disattached from your neck. But dont secure as hard that you have a hard time breathing(!)
5) before putting the bag onto your head, wait some time so it becomes at least 50% full with inert gas. During this time, hyperventilate (take about 10 deep and quick breaths), then place the bag in final position, and secure it.
6) Take 4-8 deep breaths, and you drift into unconsciousness and you dont have CO2 panic reflex (omg Im getting suffocated). There is no reflex, your lungs and brain dont differentiate between air and inert gas. After unconsciousness there may or may not be small seizures, but if noone comes to save you in 10-15minutes, you are GONE with ZERO pain.

 

[Msvr]

inert gas 100%.

Yeah, I decided to use gas. I was going to do it yesterday, but I did so much testing I had to go refill my 40 cu ft tank. I've checked for leaks with spray bottle, done water displacement test to insure my flow meter is accurate, tested on a mannequin head with a oxygen detector to confirm less than 1% oxygen in the bag, and more test. I'm feeling pretty confident now. I will have straps around my waist, legs, chest, wrist, and the tank itself.
This Tuesday there is a harvest moon, supermoon, and partial lunar eclipse all happening at the same time, which is rare. I'm going to watch that and then go ctb on Tuesday night/early Wednesday morning.

 

[Romanticize]

May I only ask how did you manage to get the "Exit bag"? In Poland, where I am, buying a 10L or 25L canister with Helium. Nitrogen or Argon is pretty easy [it can be used for welding etc...] but the exit bag, with some ziplock etc, thats not sometthing you can buy online, did you purchase it somewhere (where? can PM me) or did it by yourself?
Thats the only thing holding me back from inert gas method.

 

[Intoxicated]

6) Take 4-8 deep breaths, and you drift into unconsciousness and you dont have CO2 panic reflex (omg Im getting suffocated). There is no reflex, your lungs and brain dont differentiate between air and inert gas. After unconsciousness there may or may not be small seizures, but if noone comes to save you in 10-15minutes, you are GONE with ZERO pain.

By taking quick deep breaths you can make ambient air sucked into the bag, since the flow of gas coming from the hose may be insufficient to compensate a rapid loss of gas in the bag caused by intensive inhaling. 15 - 20 LPM corresponds to only 250 - 333 mL per second, while an immediate inhalation flow rate may be as large as 2000 mL per second if you breathe in intensively.

tested on a mannequin head with a oxygen detector to confirm less than 1% oxygen in the bag

I think, tests with a mannequin ain't really informative, since mannequins can't breathe, so they don't let adequately simulate gas flows you'd have in the bag under actual conditions.

 

[Msvr]

May I only ask how did you manage to get the "Exit bag"? In Poland, where I am, buying a 10L or 25L canister with Helium. Nitrogen or Argon is pretty easy [it can be used for welding etc...] but the exit bag, with some ziplock etc, thats not sometthing you can buy online, did you purchase it somewhere (where? can PM me) or did it by yourself?
Thats the only thing holding me back from inert gas method.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but 10 or 25L canister of helium is not near enough. You need 600+ liters. As for the exit bag, go check the "inert gas mega thread" in these forums. Or look up a video "doing it with Chi - making an exit bag." It's on youtube

By taking quick deep breaths you can make ambient air sucked into the bag, since the flow of gas coming from the hose may be insufficient to compensate a rapid loss of gas in the bag caused by intensive inhaling. 15 - 20 LPM corresponds to only 250 - 333 mL per second, while an immediate inhalation flow rate may be as large as 2000 mL per second if you breath in intensively.


I think, tests with a mannequin ain't really informative, since mannequins can't breathe, so they don't let adequately simulate gas flows you'd have in the bag under actual conditions.

Exit bags account for the initial large intake of breath. The PPH recommends 25 LPM for EEBD hood, but only 15 LPM for exit bag as you already start with a large bag of inert gas.

And the test with the mannequin was just to test the bag would inflate properly, wouldn't pop, and such. Extra testing, even if unnecessary don't hurt.

 

[Romanticize]

Dude, on the market there are 3L, 8L, 10-12L, and 25L maximum canisters.

KEEP IN MIND that they are kept under like 200bar pressure, so your 8L canister contains 8 x 200 = 1600 L of gas.

From my research, to be sure your dead you need 15-20 L/min for 15minutes (45- 60minutes etc, are WAY OFF) 15L x 15min = 225L.
600+ liters is 2,5x as much, but if someone wants to be 100% sure, I'd go for 600 liters. But remember, even 3L canister has 3x200 [in case of 200bar] = 600L. I read of some case reports [autopsy reports] that some teenager killed herself with the 3L canister used to fill baloons. No specific gas for welding, just for balloons...

and thank you for that youtube vid, its helpful i can already see that.

 

[Msvr]

Dude, on the market there are 3L, 8L, 10-12L, and 25L maximum canisters.

KEEP IN MIND that they are kept under like 200bar pressure, so your 8L canister contains 8 x 200 = 1600 L of gas.

From my research, to be sure your dead you need 15-20 L/min for 15minutes (45- 60minutes etc, are WAY OFF) 15L x 15min = 225L.
600+ liters is 2,5x as much, but if someone wants to be 100% sure, I'd go for 600 liters. But remember, even 3L canister has 3x200 [in case of 200bar] = 600L. I read of some case reports [autopsy reports] that some teenager killed herself with the 3L canister used to fill baloons. No specific gas for welding, just for balloons...

and thank you for that youtube vid, its helpful i can already see that.

Ok, indeed I misunderstood. I'm only familiar with US welding tanks which are measured in cu ft, not tank physical volume in liters. My 40 cu ft tank is around 1160 liters compressed. You are right that typically 15 minutes worth is the most you need. There was a case from a registered euthanasia group where a woman took ~40 minutes to die, but only due to improper setup of an mask setup. And if your going to buy 225L compressed tank, you might as well buy a 600+. Cost about the same and not a method you want to mess up on. Overkill is vital on this method, failure means becoming a vegetable for life

 

[Intoxicated]

Exit bags account for the initial large intake of breath.

So far I don't see noticeable benefits in such a ritual besides a possible distraction from scary thoughts and maybe reducing the time to fainting by a few seconds. If you just breathe with an inert gas normally, loss of consciousness and death should happen anyway.

 

[Msvr]

So far I don't see noticeable benefits in such a ritual besides a possible distraction from scary thoughts and maybe reducing the time to fainting by a few seconds. If you just breathe with an inert gas normally, loss of consciousness and death should happen anyway.

Yeah, it's just so that you can shave a few seconds. I did a blackout test on myself the other day (filled my exit bag with N2, sealed it except for a small hole in the bottom, then put my mouth to it and breathed until I passed out.) It did take around 45 seconds (I recorded myself, you can see a video I posted on a prior thread of mine) and that 45 seconds was without hyperventilating or taking a big breath at the start. I imagine a big breath would just knock 15 seconds or so off.

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

inert gas 100%.
Be sure to:
1) strap the canister to a bed or chair leg, so if u lose consciosuness, it still stays.
2) set reductor valve to 15-20 L/min.
3) put a very small hole, maybe pencil size or smaller 2-5mm on the top of the bag, so that used air/CO2 will come out, and new inert gas will have space to go inside the bag.
4) secure the bag firmly on your neck, in 30s-1min the bag will get full and you dont want it to be disattached from your neck. But dont secure as hard that you have a hard time breathing(!)
5) before putting the bag onto your head, wait some time so it becomes at least 50% full with inert gas. During this time, hyperventilate (take about 10 deep and quick breaths), then place the bag in final position, and secure it.
6) Take 4-8 deep breaths, and you drift into unconsciousness and you dont have CO2 panic reflex (omg Im getting suffocated). There is no reflex, your lungs and brain dont differentiate between air and inert gas. After unconsciousness there may or may not be small seizures, but if noone comes to save you in 10-15minutes, you are GONE with ZERO pain.

Do I really need to poke a tiny hole in the bag? I'm afraid N2 will escape instead. Can I not just tighten the bag and use the 2 finger method?

 

[Msvr]

Do I really need to poke a tiny hole in the bag? I'm afraid N2 will escape instead. Can I not just tighten the bag and use the 2 finger method?

Yeah, I wouldn't do this. I've never seen this recommended anywhere. I've done my own exit bag test with a mannequin head and using an oxygen detector the N2 will evacuate out the bottom of the bag without any issues. The only reason you may consider poking a hole in the bag (and I have seen this mentioned) is if you are using argon as it's heavier than air. But with N2 or helium, don't do this. Just do it like all the studies have done with successful results... Without any holes

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

Yeah, I wouldn't do this. I've never seen this recommended anywhere. I've done my own exit bag test with a mannequin head and using an oxygen detector the N2 will evacuate out the bottom of the bag without any issues. The only reason you may consider poking a hole in the bag (and I have seen this mentioned) is if you are using argon as it's heavier than air. But with N2 or helium, don't do this. Just do it like all the studies have done with successful results... Without any holes

Yea I agree with you, I'm not going to do that I'm just going to do the two finger method instead. I appreciate your input!

 

[athiestjoe]

Inert gas sounds more peaceful and quicker than SN, although both have some variables that can cause them to not work but to me the risk of failure seems more likely with SN due to the protocol. No method is 100%* but inert gas sounds more peaceful to me anyways and is my first preferred method but SN is my second. Then again beggers cant be choosers so I plan to CTB with whatever method I feel I have a better shot at not messing up.