SN and braindamage

[[HNO]]

i'm notifying beforehand that this thread is written from layman's perspective so I dont not pretend on any accuracy whatsoever . There's controversy over whether SN overdose has debilitating health complications, in this thread i'll focus only on brain damage.

The first case:
"A 28 year old woman was brought into the emergency department cyanosed and in cardiac arrest. She was found collapsed in a park with a note detailing that she had ingested an unknown quantity of sodium nitrite at up to six hours prior for the purposes of ending her life. A venous blood gas revealed a methaemoglobin percentage of 81%. Following treatment with methylene blue, sodium bicarbonate and adrenaline, the methaemoglobin decreased. Prior to transfer to intensive care, a CT head revealed extensive hypoxic brain injury. Two days later brain death was confirmed on brainstem testing."

The second case:
"A 28-year-old man was brought to our emergency department because of transient loss of consciousness and cyanosis. A blood test revealed a methemoglobin level of 92.5%. Soon after receiving methylene blue, his cyanosis resolved and the methemoglobin level began to decrease. After relocation to the intensive care unit, his consciousness improved and he could recall ingesting approximately 15 g sodium nitrite about 1 hour before he was brought to our hospital. The patient was discharged on day 7 without neurologic impairment."

Brain damage on resuscitation is more likely to take place on the peak of poisoning ie at 90% of blood MtHb (methemoglobin) that's concentration where lethal outcome usually happens and the outcome in some reports patterned as follows: blood of a hospitalized person reaches 90%> concentration of MtHb and following this occurs a cardiac arrest, the EMS staff acting according to cardiac arrest protocol and could save a patient in time, because cardiac arrest in itself is a condition where brain's deprived from the oxygen it often concludes in brain damage of various degrees, which depends on the time of oxygen deprivation.

In order to make comprehension of the material easier i'm including some theory:
"Methemoglobinemia – a condition in which a higher-than-normal amount of methemoglobin is found in the blood. Methemoglobin is a form of hemoglobin that cannot carry oxygen. In methemoglobinemia, tissues cannot get enough oxygen. Symptoms may include headache, dizziness, fatigue, shortness of breath, nausea, vomiting, rapid heartbeat, loss of muscle coordination, and blue-colored skin."

It seems that one hour of gradual increasing of MtHb up to the lethal concentration (90%) can be relatively 'safe' and could end up out w/o any neurological consequences. Now to support my argument, even several minutes of brain hypoxia is enough to cause severe brain damage as in drowning, hanging, inert gas hypoxia etc, but surprisingly 1 hour of hypoxia caused by SN conclude in (relatively) intact brain tissues.

In the first case a person undergone a cardiac arrest and was experienced high MtHb concentrations for long time. The question remains what caused the brain damage, hypoxia or cardiac arrest, because brain damage could have occurred before the cardiac arrest.

The first case:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...a_Due_To_Intentional_Sodium_Nitrite_Poisoning

The second case:

(PDF) Severe Methemoglobinemia due to Sodium Nitrite Poisoning

PDF | Case . We report a case of severe methemoglobinemia due to sodium nitrite poisoning. A 28-year-old man was brought to our emergency department... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Also interesting to mention quote from second article (Page 2, Discussion, 2nd paragraph): "Nitrite is also a potent vasodilator and can
cause coronary ischemia and stroke as a result of hypotension, tachycardia, and hypoxia."

 

[MidnightDream]

Thank you for sharing. The contrast between the 2 cases is very interesting to read.

The second case shows a higher methaemoglobin percentage and yet he walks away without permanent damage. This seems to fit the general experience we have come to understand - that providing you are found quickly enough, the effects of SN can be entirely reversed and no permanent damage will occur. 92.5% is an insanely high number to come back from, and is very good to hear for those who are worried they might change their minds, be caught early, etc.

The first case is an interesting contrast to this, what's standing out to me most though is 6 hours. And a lower methaemoglobin level also. That's not normal, and suggests complications arose - death should have occurred much quicker than that. This could be worrying to those reading that case, but I think it simply emphasises the importance of following some sort of regimen. We don't know how much she took, how she took it, her eating patterns prior or her behaviour leading up to the act which could have greatly influenced this outcome. Her note stating 'unknown quantity' suggests little planning went into it, and the outcome suggests she may have taken a lower than recommended dose, and maybe hadn't fasted. In this instance, it makes sense that it would have taken much longer than we would typically expect. Regardless, it likely would have worked had she not be found, so this further emphasises the importance of making sure we aren't found especially if a regimen isn't followed as closely.

Both of these cases are important points to consider when making a decision regarding method - I do think the first case is a rarity however (as demonstrated by the second), and most likely linked to not following a regimen. May she rest in peace.

 

[👁️👃👁️]

So she took it 6 hours prior?

 

[Idontmatter]

I'm already nervous and terrified of failing with sn

 

[Cathy Ames]

So she took it 6 hours prior?

Specifically "up to" 6 hours prior to being found, which means it might have less than that. And the quantity taken was unknown.

 

[[HNO]]

So she took it 6 hours prior?

"had ingested an unknown quantity of sodium nitrite at up to six hours prior for the purposes of ending her life."
likely

 

[👁️👃👁️]

"had ingested an unknown quantity of sodium nitrite at up to six hours prior for the purposes of ending her life."
likely

So brain death means your dead anyway right?

So do we have any cases of anyone who has SURVIVED with brain damage?

 

[freelifexit]

Prior to transfer to intensive care, a CT head revealed extensive hypoxic brain injury. Two days later brain death was confirmed on brainstem testing.

She was alive for two days after revealing brain injury.

 

[Cathy Ames]

So do we have any cases of anyone who has SURVIVED with brain damage?

I don't have the specific cases at hand, but I have seen at least one (and I think more) where they did find something on the CT, but all of the ones that I can recall said something like there were not any SYMPTOMS of damage. They didn't specify how that was determined, as in whether they did a whole test battery for cognitive ability or perhaps just decided the person was "normal" based on a conversation and that screening test.

I wish I'd been more organized at keeping track of the different studies, but I didn't want them saved on my computer. I'll see if I can relocate the things with the CT results that were consistent with anoxia (or whatever it was--I remember they said it was similar to what happened with carbon monoxide).

I don't have the specific cases at hand, but I have seen at least one (and I think more) where they did find something on the CT, but all of the ones that I can recall said something like there were not any SYMPTOMS of damage.

To be clear, in saying this, what I mean is that perhaps there was "damage" seen (or changes or effects on the brain) but that they were not relevant or wouldn't impair ability to function. I don't exactly remember. But it seemed like they maybe thought the person was basically fine?

So do we have any cases of anyone who has SURVIVED with brain damage?

I don't have the specific cases at hand, but I have seen at least one (and I think more) where they did find something on the CT, but all of the ones that I can recall said something like there were not any SYMPTOMS of damage. They didn't specify how that was determined, as in whether they did a whole test battery for cognitive ability or perhaps just decided the person was "normal" based on a conversation and that screening test.

Oops... Okay, well here is something. This is NOT what I had in mind, and it does sound serious (at first glance). I have not yet had time to read it carefully. I'll edit if I change my mind. [I might.]
@👁️👃👁️

Delayed Post-Hypoxic Leukoencephalopathy Following Nitrite Poisoning: A Case Report and Review of the Literature

Delayed post-hypoxic leukoencephalopathy (DPHL) is a demyelinating syndrome that occurs days to weeks after the brain has recovered from a coma. It is caused by the period of hypoxia and is characterized by mental disorders, extrapyramidal system symptoms, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I don't have the specific cases at hand, but I have seen at least one (and I think more) where they did find something on the CT, but all of the ones that I can recall said something like there were not any SYMPTOMS of damage. They didn't specify how that was determined, as in whether they did a whole test battery for cognitive ability or perhaps just decided the person was "normal" based on a conversation and that screening test.

I wish I'd been more organized at keeping track of the different studies, but I didn't want them saved on my computer. I'll see if I can relocate the things with the CT results that were consistent with anoxia (or whatever it was--I remember they said it was similar to what happened with carbon monoxide).

To be clear, in saying this, what I mean is that perhaps there was "damage" seen (or changes or effects on the brain) but that they were not relevant or wouldn't impair ability to function. I don't exactly remember. But it seemed like they maybe thought the person was basically fine?

Sounds fairly straightforward to me - you can see damage on CT, but there are no symptoms i.e. the person doesn't act or feel any different. If brain damage is not extensive it can be completely asymptomatic, which means person doesn't feel any different, as in a case of so called "silent strokes" and some smaller brain tumours. Brains are weird.

So far everything seems to make sense. If you cut off the brain from oxygen almost enough but not quite enough to kill it, there will be brain damage, no matter how you do it (SN, hanging, carbon monoxide, exit bag etc.). SN seems to take several hours of unconsciousness to completely finish off the brain. If you're saved quickly, there will be little to no damage. The closer you get to actually succeding, the more damage your brain will take if you're resuscitated.

 

[👁️👃👁️]

Sounds fairly straightforward to me - you can see damage on CT, but there are no symptoms i.e. the person doesn't act or feel any different. If brain damage is not extensive it can be completely asymptomatic, which means person doesn't feel any different, as in a case of so called "silent strokes" and some smaller brain tumours. Brains are weird.

So far everything seems to make sense. If you cut off the brain from oxygen almost enough but not quite enough to kill it, there will be brain damage, no matter how you do it (SN, hanging, carbon monoxide, exit bag etc.). SN seems to take several hours of unconsciousness to completely finish off the brain. If you're saved quickly, there will be little to no damage. The closer you get to actually succeding, the more damage your brain will take if you're resuscitated.

And by that time you will most likely be brain dead from what it seems.

 

[freelifexit]

I don't have the specific cases at hand, but I have seen at least one (and I think more) where they did find something on the CT, but all of the ones that I can recall said something like there were not any SYMPTOMS of damage. They didn't specify how that was determined, as in whether they did a whole test battery for cognitive ability or perhaps just decided the person was "normal" based on a conversation and that screening test.

I wish I'd been more organized at keeping track of the different studies, but I didn't want them saved on my computer. I'll see if I can relocate the things with the CT results that were consistent with anoxia (or whatever it was--I remember they said it was similar to what happened with carbon monoxide).

To be clear, in saying this, what I mean is that perhaps there was "damage" seen (or changes or effects on the brain) but that they were not relevant or wouldn't impair ability to function. I don't exactly remember. But it seemed like they maybe thought the person was basically fine?




Oops... Okay, well here is something. This is NOT what I had in mind, and it does sound serious (at first glance). I have not yet had time to read it carefully. I'll edit if I change my mind. [I might.]
@👁️👃👁️

Delayed Post-Hypoxic Leukoencephalopathy Following Nitrite Poisoning: A Case Report and Review of the Literature

Delayed post-hypoxic leukoencephalopathy (DPHL) is a demyelinating syndrome that occurs days to weeks after the brain has recovered from a coma. It is caused by the period of hypoxia and is characterized by mental disorders, extrapyramidal system symptoms, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Background
Delayed post-hypoxic leukoencephalopathy (DPHL) is a demyelinating syndrome that occurs days to weeks after the brain has recovered from a coma. It is caused by the period of hypoxia and is characterized by mental disorders, extrapyramidal system symptoms, and motor changes. Common causes include cardiogenic shock, severe anemia, massive blood loss, and poisoning. Poisoning, mostly resulting from intoxication with carbon monoxide and several narcotic drugs, has been reported to be a cause of DPHL. There are only a few reports of DPHL due to nitrite poisoning in literature. We report DPHL in a patient following nitrite poisoning and a review of the literature in this context.
Case Presentation
A 64-year-old man presented with dizziness and nausea without vomiting. He later went into a coma after consuming a spare rib soup. After blood gas analysis, we suspected nitrite poisoning combined with metabolic acidosis, hypoxemia, and electrolyte imbalance. He gradually showed neurologic recovery to premorbid baseline after intravenous administration of methylene blue (40 mg) and symptomatic treatment. Two months later, the patient's cerebral magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) showed signs that are compatible with injury, with the patient in late stages of mental decline.
Conclusion
Nitrite poisoning can cause DPHL. There is a period of intermittent recovery between the time of poisoning and the development of DPHL, but the specific pathogenesis and treatment are still unclear.

 

[👁️👃👁️]

I'm not sure why I still worry about these threads. I'm going to succeed.
Any method can cause brain damage. This method is the one that is least likely to, so I am still wondering what the hype is about. People are still going to take SN. Lol What is the goal here? To educate people? Educate people about what? That ingesting poison and trying to kill yourself can can damage to your body? No shit! Compared to other methods this seems to be the safest. Would you like us to hang our self and potentially end up brain dead and paralyzed? Or would you rather us try to shoot ourselves and potentially fail that? Follow the guide, make sure you are not caught, drink the second glaSS.

 

[Cathy Ames]

Nitrite poisoning can cause DPHL. There is a period of intermittent recovery between the time of poisoning and the development of DPHL, but the specific pathogenesis and treatment are still unclear.

It states, "There are only a few reports of DPHL due to nitrite poisoning in literature." They also said that recovery is possible for the mild cases (takes 1-2 years, though). That's my informal paraphrasing of what they said, not a quote. I think I'm done looking for the ones I mentioned earlier. My google-fu isn't working today.

I'm not sure why I still worry about these threads.

And I really should quit participating because I don't think I'm coming across as I would wish to.

I feel you provide a basically common-sense point of view whenever this comes up. But maybe it would be better for you to not stress yourself trying to convince other people? IDK how to say what I mean to say. This is a day where I can't seem to come up with the right words. Hugs to you.

 

[Idontmatter]

I'm not sure why I still worry about these threads. I'm going to succeed.
Any method can cause brain damage. This method is the one that is least likely to, so I am still wondering what the hype is about. People are still going to take SN. Lol What is the goal here? To educate people? Educate people about what? That ingesting poison and trying to kill yourself can can damage to your body? No shit! Compared to other methods this seems to be the safest. Would you like us to hang our self and potentially end up brain dead and paralyzed? Or would you rather us try to shoot ourselves and potentially fail that? Follow the guide, make sure you are not caught, drink the second glaSS.

I feel like I'm already brain dead

 

[👁️👃👁️]

I feel like I'm already brain dead

I mean.. if it can possibly put me in a situation where I'm unable to function completely then I would be extremely worried. Compared to other methods this seems like one of the safer options but that's just my opinion.

 

[Idontmatter]

T

I mean.. if it can possibly put me in a situation where I'm unable to function completely then I would be extremely worried. Compared to other methods this seems like one of the safer options but that's just my opinion.

This is still the only option I'm brave enough to do. I'm trying to be confident. As long as I have my backup glass I'm good.

 

[Cathy Ames]

The second case:
"A 28-year-old man was brought to our emergency department because of transient loss of consciousness and cyanosis. A blood test revealed a methemoglobin level of 92.5%. Soon after receiving methylene blue, his cyanosis resolved and the methemoglobin level began to decrease. After relocation to the intensive care unit, his consciousness improved and he could recall ingesting approximately 15 g sodium nitrite about 1 hour before he was brought to our hospital. The patient was discharged on day 7 without neurologic impairment."

Okay, so when I referred to there being one or more cases where they where they did find something on the CT, this was one. [Duh.] Here it is: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/criem/2016/9013816/

"Cranial T2-weighted magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) demonstrated bilateral and symmetrical hyperintense lesions in the globus pallidus." and "Cranial T2-weighted MRI findings 3 days after sodium nitrite ingestion were similar to those in carbon monoxide poisoning. It has been reported that the globus pallidus is most susceptible to hypoxia."

"The patient was transferred to the general ward and was subsequently discharged on day 7 without neurologic impairment."

Please refer to what I said above and to what @Nessie said. Please don't @ me, thinking you're rebutting me if you are saying anything similar to this. I will put this thread on ignore pretty soon here so as to prevent myself from going down some kind of rabbit hole. [I have other things I need to do and don't want to do so I will always default to spending time with google. Can't do that today.]

Sounds fairly straightforward to me - you can see damage on CT, but there are no symptoms i.e. the person doesn't act or feel any different. If brain damage is not extensive it can be completely asymptomatic, which means person doesn't feel any different, as in a case of so called "silent strokes" and some smaller brain tumours. Brains are weird.

Any method can cause brain damage.

Yes!!!!

This method is the one that is least likely to, so I am still wondering what the hype is about. People are still going to take SN. Lol What is the goal here? To educate people? Educate people about what? That ingesting poison and trying to kill yourself can can damage to your body? No shit! Compared to other methods this seems to be the safest. Would you like us to hang our self and potentially end up brain dead and paralyzed? Or would you rather us try to shoot ourselves and potentially fail that? Follow the guide, make sure you are not caught, drink the second glaSS.

So... for me, my reason for participating is a form of something like compulsiveness. I would very rarely (possibly never) participate if only people would quit saying that brain damage will NEVER occur. Because using the word "never" makes the statement incorrect, and I hate when people make unrealistic guarantees. I totally agree with your take, which I would boil down to "Any method (including SN) can cause brain damage. No shit!"

Peace out.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do wonder with these cases whether it is because the process was haulted and treatment given to reverse the effects. Do you suppose- if people aren't discovered or- call for help themselves that they would eventually have died? Brain damage on the way to death would make sense I suspect in a lot of methods which deprive the body of oxygen. It's just whether death is likely following that that concerns me.

I guess none of us really know how we'll react during an attempt. My concern I suppose is that the symptoms get so bad/ painful or frightening that you feel compelled to seek help- especially if they go on for hours.

The first one in particular sounds as though the amount of SN taken could have been well bellow the recommended dose. I guess she could have been feeling confused when she wrote the note- so couldn't remember how much she'd taken. Still, I sort of think in fully planned attempts, people are very aware of how much they need to take. 6 hours sounds terrifying. I thought it could kill you in 1. We don't know the purity of the SN in either case and perhaps both took less of it than was required.

 

[Mofreeko]

Is there a single suicide method that doesn't have a chance for brain damage if it fails?

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I do wonder with these cases whether it is because the process was haulted and treatment given to reverse the effects. Do you suppose- if people aren't discovered or- call for help themselves that they would eventually have died? Brain damage on the way to death would make sense I suspect in a lot of methods which deprive the body of oxygen. It's just whether death is likely following that that concerns me.

I don't see any evidence that suggests otherwise. Generally, prolonged hypoxic brain damage of any kind tends to result in death.

6 hours sounds terrifying. I thought it could kill you in 1.

Well, the article only says "for up to six hours", so they either don't want to disclose the time, or the paramedics never knew exactly how much time passed and the note only said something vague like "took SN this morning". For all we know, it could've been 1 hour.

Is there a single suicide method that doesn't have a chance for brain damage if it fails?

No, by the very nature of death there isn't. We die when our brain dies, you cannot die without damaging the brain in the process. If the process of dying is interrupted, there will be some amount of brain damage. It doesn't mean that everyone who has ever been close to death experiences some debilitating brain damage symptoms - because as I mentioned before, brains are weird and sometimes you might not even notice brain damage and it will be completely asymptomatic. If a method has no chance of damaging the brain, it has no chance of killing you either.

 

[Mofreeko]

No, by the very nature of death there isn't. We die when our brain dies, you cannot die without damaging the brain in the process. If the process of dying is interrupted, there will be some amount of brain damage. It doesn't mean that everyone who has ever been close to death experiences some debilitating brain damage symptoms - because as I mentioned before, brains are weird and sometimes you might not even notice brain damage and it will be completely asymptomatic. If a method has no chance of damaging the brain, it has no chance of killing you either.

Exactly. I don't know why people are so hung up on whether or not SN can leave you with brain damage. No one seems to bring up the issue of brain damage with hanging for example, so why is it always brought up in regards to SN?

 

[👁️👃👁️]

Exactly. I don't know why people are so hung up on whether or not SN can leave you with brain damage. No one seems to bring up the issue of brain damage with hanging for example, so why is it always brought up in regards to SN?

SN. You talking about the method that produces NO which acts as a neuroprotectant for a certain amount of time right? and by the time that is wears off in most cases your most likely dead by that point?
And or brain dead which means you are DEAD there is no saving you.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

SN. You talking about the method that produces NO which acts as a neuroprotectant for a certain amount of time right? and by the time that is wears off in most cases your most likely dead by that point?
And or brain dead which means you are DEAD there is no saving you.

Huh?
I'd like to know more about this.

 

[👁️👃👁️]

Huh?
I'd like to know more about this.

I honestly don't know I'm just spewing a bunch of nonsense to make myself look like I know something but I don't. Sodium Nitrite does convert into NO I believe and NO is supposedly a neuroprotectant but I could be wrong I just remember reading a threat about it on here.

what I'm about to send doesn't to do with this but it's still an interesting read.

Neuroprotective role of nitric oxide inhalation and nitrite in a Neonatal Rat Model of Hypoxic-Ischemic Injury

Background There is evidence from various models of hypoxic-ischemic injury (HII) that nitric oxide (NO) is protective. We hypothesized that either inhaled NO (iNO) or nitrite would alleviate brain injury in neonatal HII via modulation of mitochondrial function. Methods We tested the effects...

journals.plos.org

 

[GrumpyFrog]

what I'm about to send doesn't to do with this but it's still an interesting read.

It is, and kiiind of has to do with the topic, so thanks for sharing.

I honestly don't know I'm just spewing a bunch of nonsense to make myself look like I know something but I don't. Sodium Nitrite does convert into NO I believe and NO is supposedly a neuroprotectant but I could be wrong I just remember reading a threat about it on here.

Oh boy. I'm not sure if there is sarcasm in there and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to react anymore. Sorry.

Spoiler: My personal stance on the matter if anyone cares

With everything I've read so far, I feel obligated to clarify that I do not see the discussion around SN as some sort of internal political issue and I am not interested in taking sides in the drama surrounding it. I am doing genuine research because I plan to use SN as my method and if nothing changes I intend to do it fairly soon. The process of going through the SN-related threads has been a rollercoaster ride from hell for me lately, frankly at this point I am very frustrated, extremely scared, upset and disappointed, and mildly pissed off at how the issue is handled (I'm not directing this rant personally at @👁️👃👁️ ). I started to make my own posts summing up the key points of everything I've learned so far, trying to help anyone who is also doing the research for personal purposes to make any sense out of everything that is being thrown at them. I am interested in any information, but I am at the point where I've got to really understand the intentions of the poster as well just to tell how seriously I need to take what they are saying, because holy shit guys. Just...Holy shit.

 

[Mofreeko]

It is, and kiiind of has to do with the topic, so thanks for sharing.

Oh boy. I'm not sure if there is sarcasm in there and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to react anymore. Sorry.

Spoiler: My personal stance on the matter if anyone cares

With everything I've read so far, I feel obligated to clarify that I do not see the discussion around SN as some sort of internal political issue and I am not interested in taking sides in the drama surrounding it. I am doing genuine research because I plan to use SN as my method and if nothing changes I intend to do it fairly soon. The process of going through the SN-related threads has been a rollercoaster ride from hell for me lately, frankly at this point I am very frustrated, extremely scared, upset and disappointed, and mildly pissed off at how the issue is handled (I'm not directing this rant personally at @👁️👃👁️ ). I started to make my own posts summing up the key points of everything I've learned so far, trying to help anyone who is also doing the research for personal purposes to make any sense out of everything that is being thrown at them. I am interested in any information, but I am at the point where I've got to really understand the intentions of the poster as well just to tell how seriously I need to take what they are saying, because holy shit guys. Just...Holy shit.

Honestly I think a lot of people's distrust of SN comes from the fact that it's not N. N is the holy grail on the website and while it was (sort of) available people felt comfortable shitting all over SN and weren't really open to seeing it as a viable option.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Important info:

The person in the first case already suffered cardiac arrest, therefore they were unconscious and eventually died.
The person in the second case was released from hospital after 7 days without(!) neurologic impairment.

I still haven't seen a case in which ingesting SN turns you into a vegetable and SN doesn't have a higher chance of brain damage than most other methods. I think that's important to point out. Methods that involve suggesting a lethal substance ususally impact oxygen flow to your brain, that's ususally the methodology of your death but if you're found in time and if people manage to save you, this can lead to permanent consequences. That's why people don't want to be found if they want to die. Even if you have N you need to make sure you give your method a few hours to work without any disturbances. That's why I will take N during the night so I have at least 6-8 hours to die and nobody can interefere with my attempt.