Situational or Metaphysical suicide:

[DJ2000]

The Philosopher and Psychoanalyst Slavoj Zizek once said that whenever someone kills themselves, they should have a psychologist or philosopher come in and try to determine whether it was a situational suicide (like a breakup or something like that) or a truly metaphysical suicide.

I think this is a very good question we should ask and believe that it's determined by this question of reincarnation. If you could kill yourself then come back as someone completely different, would you do it? Are there any circumstances at all wherein you would see life as worth living?

A situational suicide, as Schopenhauer points out, amounts to an ultimate affirmation of life, since you are not rejecting life as such but only your particular circumstances, what gets in the way of you living the life you want. Whereas a metaphysical suicide amounts to a rejection of life as such, and doesn't fall under Schopenhauer's Pessimistic Criticism of suicide.

I'm trying to figure out which kind I would fall under, to better make my decision, and would like to see what you think.

 

[InTheAirTonight]

Situational which has slowly morphed into metaphysical over many years

 

[Jean Améry]

Interesting topic. I lean more towards the metaphysical but then again I'm no longer actively suicidal. Philosophically speaking I'm a pessimist so that means I consider life on the whole not worth living. Still that does not imply it's always better to end it as there are more factors involved than just the philosophical.

In my opinion metaphysical/philosophical suicide is probably quite rare and perhaps not even feasible in its pure form. Whoever dies solely for an idea? The hopelessness and suffering of the world is still an idea: imo a pretty good approximation of reality but still only an idea.

I would really like to read or hear what Zizek (whom I don't really know) had to say about suicide. Could you point me to the source of that quote? I'd be much obliged.

 

[MaybeSoon]

Definitely situational. I don't reject life, life is brilliant and there's so many things I admire and love about it. I'm just too fucked up to fit in and enjoy it.

 

[Walilamdzi]

I'm not sure to be honest, mine is kind of due to the anticipation of things getting worse.

 

[DJ2000]

Interesting topic. I lean more towards the metaphysical but then again I'm no longer actively suicidal. Philosophically speaking I'm a pessimist so that means I consider life on the whole not worth living. Still that does not imply it's always better to end it as there are more factors involved than just the philosophical.

In my opinion metaphysical/philosophical suicide is probably quite rare and perhaps not even feasible in its pure form. Whoever dies solely for an idea? The hopelessness and suffering of the world is still an idea: imo a pretty good approximation of reality but still only an idea.

I would really like to read or hear what Zizek (whom I don't really know) had to say about suicide. Could you point me to the source of that quote? I'd be much obliged.

A teenager who smoked salvia years before killed himself for philosophical reasons and they used it to ban salvia because it was "responsible for so and so's death" or whatever. But in any case philosophy is not just purely imaginary scenarios, if it's good it should describe real life.

 

[Walilamdzi]

I'm not sure what I think of Zizek these days.

 

[Jean Améry]

A teenager who smoked salvia years before killed himself for philosophical reasons and they used it to ban salvia because it was "responsible for so and so's death" or whatever. But in any case philosophy is not just purely imaginary scenarios, if it's good it should describe real life.

Thanks. Any philosophical position on existence isn't just a description but always entails a value judgement. Which is by its very nature subjective. Still my position remains that I find it hard to see how one could reasonably pronounce existence to be 'very good' (as the Jewish and Christian god is rumoured to have done after his supposed creation of the world) seeing it contains so much pointless and unjust suffering.

 

[DJ2000]

I'm not sure what I think of Zizek these days.

he was always pretty far out.

Thanks. Any philosophical position on existence isn't just a description but always entails a value judgement. Which is by its very nature subjective. Still my position remains that I find it hard to see how one could reasonably pronounce existence to be 'very good' (as the Jewish and Christian god is rumoured to have done after his supposed creation of the world) seeing it contains so much pointless and unjust suffering.

Yss, I mean Schopenhauer's argument that life is intrinsically pointless and unhappy, because it's an endless swinging between boredom and misery. Nietzsche criticized this from the radical subjective point of view, arguing that because we are subject to it, we cannot make any "objective" judgements about it, while "the dead can't do it for a different reason."

Everyone is describing it as a situational suicidality that has turned into a metaphysical one, the judgement that things are only going to get worse, which, strictly speaking, can never be proved a priori ( according to David "just because the sun rose today, yesterday, and every day since who knows how long doesn't necessarily mean it will rise tomorrow" Hume) , but to kill yourself you must accept it or an a priori Pessimistic argument of Schopenhauer's.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@DJ2000 did you post a video earlier today on the Pessimistic view of suicide?

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I doubt that the latter exists.*



but to kill yourself you must accept it

Why would we need absolute certainty that our lives will only get worse form now on to end it? has the decision to kill yourself a special status among decisions which necessitates absolute certainty?

Furthermore, we can accept Kants view of causality and determinism and still recognize that calculating the future is practically impossible. Would you call someone rational who stayed alive in an utterly hopeless situation based on his epistemological skepticism of causality?

things are only going to get worse, which, strictly speaking, can never be proved a priori

Of course not; and I don't see how Schopenhauer makes an 'a priori' argument for pessimism either.

The majority of people report that they enjoy their life, and that the good in their life outweighs the bad; they could accept Schopenhauers psychological account of pleasure as negative and still, empirically, experience their lives as overwhelmingly positive – or at least report them as such.

A situational suicide, as Schopenhauer points out,

I don't remember him ever making this distinction.

*
The christian metaphysical rejection and the ascetic rejection of worldly existence is obviously still an affirmation of yourself – your soul – and a striving towars something; a higher form of existence, either spiritually, in this life, or in an afterlife.

 

[DJ2000]

meta-situational

I doubt that the latter exists.*



but to kill yourself you must accept it

Why would we need absolute certainty that our lives will only get worse form now on to end it? has the decision to kill yourself a special status among decisions which necessitates absolute certainty?

Furthermore, we can accept Kants view of causality and determinism and still recognize that calculating the future is practically impossible. Would you call someone rational who stayed alive in an utterly hopeless situation based on his epistemological skepticism of causality?

things are only going to get worse, which, strictly speaking, can never be proved a priori

Of course not; and I don't see how Schopenhauer makes an 'a priori' argument for pessimism either.

The majority of people report that they enjoy their life, and that the good in their life outweighs the bad; they could accept Schopenhauers psychological account of pleasure as negative and still, empirically, experience their lives as overwhelmingly positive – or at least report them as such.

A situational suicide, as Schopenhauer points out,

I don't remember him ever making this distinction.

*
The christian metaphysical rejection and the ascetic rejection of worldly existence is obviously still an affirmation of yourself – your soul – and a striving towars something; a higher form of existence, either spiritually, in this life, or in an afterlife.

Killing yourself is permanent unless you fail, which means I want to be certain of anything before I do it, and I was trying to argue that you can never be certain with situational reasons to kill yourself.

Hume may push it out as far as to say that there is no a priori reason why the sun must rise tomorrow, but scientifically one of these days it wont, so this is really more of a matter of probability.

 

[Jean Améry]

I don't remember him ever making this distinction.

To my knowledge he did not refer to it as such no but he did make the distinction between the two opposing motives for suicide.

I believe the OP refers to Schopenhauer's assertion that most people who kill themselves do so not because they find life in general to be unprofitable/unpleasant (abstract judgement) but just their particular lot in life. They affirm life itself and only deny their particular circumstances. If their circumstances had been better they would gladly stay alive. In other words: they believe that life generally is good and worth living, they just had bad luck in their own life. Or so they think.

Metaphysically I believe this nonsense: while it is true that the total amount of misery in one's life varies and it certainly varies between individuals on the whole human existence is such that pain or lack of something is the baseline: if we had no needs and wants or nothing unpleasant needed to be removed we would not experience any 'joy' or 'pleasure' and we would not undertake activities, i.e. live.

Even the higher pleasures of art and music imo are negative in nature as they offer a reprieve from one's frustrating circumstances and stave off boredom. Sadly we seem to be happiest when we are the least aware of ourselves: totally engaged in a demanding activity or contemplating something that fills our mind. It's probably also the reason why we enjoy being around others: it takes us away from ourselves. Although I generally find most people rather annoying. Still to spend time with a friend who has genuine, relatively original thoughts is indeed pleasant. Especially when the conversation is mixed with good wine and whiskey and interspersed with fine music. Even as a pessimist it's no use making life even more unpleasant than it already is.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

@DJ2000 Killing yourself is permanent unless you fail, which means I want to be certain of anything before I do it,

Do you mean certainty that you won't come to enjoy/ affirm your life in the future?

Hume may push it out as far as to say that there is no a priori reason why the sun must rise tomorrow, but scientifically one of these days it wont, so this is really more of a matter of probability.

Well, I don't buy his argument. I think we can not know whether the sun will rise tomorrow – but we do know that, were it not to rise, there would be a cause for it. That's what his argument is aiming at, the knowledge of the necessity of cause and effect.

 

[Jean Améry]

Killing yourself is permanent unless you fail, which means I want to be certain of anything before I do it, and I was trying to argue that you can never be certain with situational reasons to kill yourself.

Hume may push it out as far as to say that there is no a priori reason why the sun must rise tomorrow, but scientifically one of these days it wont, so this is really more of a matter of probability.

That is quite understandable and rational. Far too many people blindly rush into death without much thought.

I do believe certain circumstances like having a terminal or painful incurable illness do offer relative certainty (in theory you could still recover from stage 4 lungcancer but the chances are quite remote) but I take it that's not the case here.

In this life almost nothing is certain but death and taxes. If you're unsure whether your life is worth living it'd make sense to test it as much as you can: what might improve your quality of life? Once you determined that you could try to achieve it. If you tried everything you could think of and you might realistically achieve (becoming the next Einstein is probably not realistic nor is becoming a billionaire although both are not totally beyond the realm of possibility) then you'll have certainty. Or at least as much certainty as you will likely find in this highly uncertain existence.

It's clear you're a thoughtful individual: since there are far too few of those in the world imo it would be preferable if you did find a modus vivendi so to speak.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

@Jean Améry They affirm life itself and only deny their particular circumstances

Now I understand.

[Wouldn't someone rejecting life in general have to make the claim that life is not worth living for everyone though? even if there are people who think their life is worth living?

How can they make this objective claim when it is obvious that, were they to have a different biology and be in a different situation with different experience, one exactly matching those of a person who enjoys and affirms life, they would enjoy and affirm their lives as well?]

edit2: To answer my own question here: no, the claim that life is not worth living for everyone is not necessary to reject life as such (on the basis of subjective value judgements like fairness for example). Only an objective claim is impossible. I conflated these two.
.
In this life almost nothing is certain but death and taxes

Well he brought up David Hume in this context; if he believes his argument, and claims he wants absolute certainty to make the decision to end his life, he will never have sufficient reason to do so – because he might as well be the exception to the rule and never die.

Edit: even if we grant that causality is known a priori and thus apodictically; that does not imply that he will necessarily die one day, would it? nor that he won't wake up tomorrow one feet taller, looking like a supermodel and with ten million dollars in his bank account.

He is left with empirical knowledge, which never suffices for apodictic judgements.

 

[Living sucks]

100% situational .. if I did not get sick (the way I did, how and what it's done to me) I would not even have considered ctb.

 

[Weems]

Billionaire just killed himself

Russian billionaire Dmitry Bosov found dead in apparent suicide

Russian billionaire Dmitry Bosov, whose core asset was a major coal company, was found dead Wednesday in an apparent suicide near his home in the Moscow region, local officials say. He was 52 years old. A spokeswoman for Russia’s Investigative Committee told the Interfax news agency that...

bnonews.com

 

[Euthanza]

I'm situational turned philosophical. My situations made me re-think a lot about my own view on life and I wish to stay philosophical until my time comes.

 

[melancholymallory03]

Metaphysical ,
Although I cant bear the weight of the world.
Too many unknown and unanswered questions , I hope everything doesn't fade to black. Sometimes the truth seems so close, death seems so easy to access, yet so far away.

The Philosopher and Psychoanalyst Slavoj Zizek once said that whenever someone kills themselves, they should have a psychologist or philosopher come in and try to determine whether it was a situational suicide (like a breakup or something like that) or a truly metaphysical suicide.

I think this is a very good question we should ask and believe that it's determined by this question of reincarnation. If you could kill yourself then come back as someone completely different, would you do it? Are there any circumstances at all wherein you would see life as worth living?

A situational suicide, as Schopenhauer points out, amounts to an ultimate affirmation of life, since you are not rejecting life as such but only your particular circumstances, what gets in the way of you living the life you want. Whereas a metaphysical suicide amounts to a rejection of life as such, and doesn't fall under Schopenhauer's Pessimistic Criticism of suicide.

I'm trying to figure out which kind I would fall under, to better make my decision, and would like to see what you think.

Situational which has slowly morphed into metaphysical over many years

ah —ozz topic but I rly like you're username and profile ~_~

 

[MyTimeIsUp]

ah —ozz topic but I rly like you're username and profile ~_~

Are you aware this post is 4 years old? You bumped it up lol, I wondered why it was appearing after all this time. I didn't realise how old it was, until I look at the date

 

[melancholymallory03]

Are you aware this post is 4 years old? You bumped it up lol, I wondered why it was appearing after all this time. I didn't realise how old it was, until I look at the date

Oh shit …. lol

Guess it's meant to be

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd say I'm both. Sure- I have situational reasons I don't want to live out this particular life but, I'm not convinced I'd prefer a different life either and I definitely wouldn't want to be reincarnated to try again.

Life itself- literally all life encompasses elements I don't think I'll ever enjoy: We have bodies that slowly degrade and feel painful as they do, we are born into a complete crapshoot of circumstances- we have no choice over who our parents are, what kind of genes they bless or curse us with, whether they are emotionally capable of being good parents, whether they can adequately afford children and, where they are located. We could easily come back in a third world country and starve to death. We will very likely be born into a capitalist/consumerist culture where we have little choice but to conform to wage slavery. We will 100% experience death. Most likely, we'll get to mourn our grandparents and parents first and then, we'll go through it ourselves.

So yeah- my life kind of sucks but I think there's a huge risk that most lives will suck! Life is situational. I don't think it can be anything else. We don't experience life passively or as some abstract concept and we don't get the ability to choose our lives or circumstances. So, I don't really get the whole metaphysical side really.