Shower thoughts on the two sides of SI

[commonloon]

Today I realized that when I'm in therapy, SI means "suicidal ideation." When I'm here, it means "survival instinct." It's funny how the same initials can contain these two seemingly opposite things—one moving towards death, the other towards life; one a psychological/mental process and the other a biological/physical one. But they're not exactly opposites, are they? They're both about having one foot on either side of the border between life and death. And in both contexts (therapy and suicide forums) they're something perceived as negative that should be overcome or mitigated somehow. But what if neither is inherently negative? What if they actually have a common function or root cause?

Does anyone else have thoughts about this connection? Would love to hear your best armchair philosopher hot takes! One of the things that make me want to live is getting to have deep and silly philosophical conversations, so this is my recovery strategy.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Before coming to this site I was used to SI meaning suicidal ideation too. Things read very differently here depending on what you interpret SI as...

I suppose both could be taken to refer to a kind of protective mechanism against something deemed unpleasant at best, excruciating at worst (life in the case of suicidal ideation, death in the case of survival instinct).

 

[trist]

that's funny because i read SI as self-injury at first

 

[commonloon]

that's funny because i read SI as self-injury at first

Oh damn, another one! Guess it's the three sides of SI then… honestly I feel like self-injury is an even better example of a compromise between life and death/self-preservation and self-destruction! At least speaking from my experience…Sometimes self-harm is a way to postpone or temporarily soothe severe depression and/or suicidal thoughts, but in the long run it reinforces the bad thought patterns that it used to "solve" and erodes the instincts that used to keep you from taking it too far.

It preserves your life a little longer by essentially slowing down your suicide. But slow and steady still wins the race, if you sleep on it…

You could even think of self-harm as harm reduction, as silly/oxymoronic as that sounds! It mitigates the harm of actually killing yourself by offering nonlethal (or less lethal) and slower options that will buy you time while searching for other healthier coping mechanisms. Just like how clean needle exchanges mitigate the harms of drug use but don't stop it—and without any other supports could just reinforce and accelerate the harm. But also the fact that it's not a cure but a practice whose terms are set by the user/self-injurer means that it offers agency—the freedom to make "bad" or less healthy decisions is a very humanizing and empowering thing that's not really found elsewhere in intensive psych/addiction treatment. So until (or even after) people DO find other supports, harm reduction may be the best tool for them for a while.

So building off of what @LaVieEnRose said about SI(s) being protective coping mechanisms, which I totally agree with, maybe we could also think of them as tools. I like feeling the philosophical/emotional shift of going from describing a "mechanism" (connotations of something automatic or machine-like that operates upon the person but has no clear operator) to a "tool" (something the person chooses and can learn to use with discipline/skill in order to best achieve a particular goal).

What do you think?

 

[LaVieEnRose]

So building off of what @LaVieEnRose said about SI(s) being protective coping mechanisms, which I totally agree with, maybe we could also think of them as tools. I like feeling the philosophical/emotional shift of going from describing a "mechanism" (connotations of something automatic or machine-like that operates upon the person but has no clear operator) to a "tool" (something the person chooses and can learn to use with discipline/skill in order to best achieve a particular goal).

What do you think?

I guess it depends on how automatic and how deliberate it is.

 

[QiTianDaSheng]

I think SI is seen as a negative here because it can cause you to bungle.

I do not intend to have any "attempts" or "cries for help". I want to just flick the switch and tag out.

SI would be where I try to abort once it's already going. Dialing 911 after SN, etc. Funnily, I tried doing a lot of leverage trading recently, and as soon as you enter it the psychology telling you to exit is wild. Overpowering, really. I can imagine it would be similar.

Likewise with ideation. Your life is 'already going', and this 'thanatos' could cause you to bungle. Playing with the idea of ctb is a crux rather than overcoming your problems.

Personally, I believe ctb becomes an option when the complexity and/or mistakes in your life become insurmountable. In my case, I'm tired, and I don't even know how to begin fixing things and I am haunted by the past. Bigly. And I cannot see a future.

SI > SI
always.
Ask yourself which way around they are for you.

 

[commonloon]

I think SI is seen as a negative here because it can cause you to bungle.

I do not intend to have any "attempts" or "cries for help". I want to just flick the switch and tag out.

SI would be where I try to abort once it's already going. Dialing 911 after SN, etc. Funnily, I tried doing a lot of leverage trading recently, and as soon as you enter it the psychology telling you to exit is wild. Overpowering, really. I can imagine it would be similar.

Likewise with ideation. Your life is 'already going', and this 'thanatos' could cause you to bungle. Playing with the idea of ctb is a crux rather than overcoming your problems.

Personally, I believe ctb becomes an option when the complexity and/or mistakes in your life become insurmountable. In my case, I'm tired, and I don't even know how to begin fixing things and I am haunted by the past. Bigly. And I cannot see a future.

SI > SI
always.
Ask yourself which way around they are for you.

Leverage trading as in stocks? Can you say more about how the experiences are similar? Is the profit/stock "win" equated with suicide for you?

 

[QiTianDaSheng]

I've been trading a couple of years, unleveraged (spot). You can have a sloppy entry because as long as it goes up eventually you're ok. (Famous last words, 2022 sucked).

But with leverage, your wins and losses are multiplied. If price moves 1% on 10x leverage you are up, or down, 10%.

Which means you can be sure X will happen. Break out, rejection etc. But as soon as you enter, the anxiety hamsters naw at your brain.

It's very common to exit trades just before they would go profitable, even at a loss, just from second guessing and psyops on yourself.

I was just suggesting it might be similar. You could be intellectually ok with something, be certain of it, have thought it through. But in the moment the pressure is on, lizard brain comes to the front.

It is why I would never poison with tablets. Seems like a recipe for a panicked change of heart in the moment.

 

[jorheslen428]

Today I realized that when I'm in therapy, SI means "suicidal ideation." When I'm here, it means "survival instinct." It's funny how the same initials can contain these two seemingly opposite things—one moving towards death, the other towards life; one a psychological/mental process and the other a biological/physical one. But they're not exactly opposites, are they? They're both about having one foot on either side of the border between life and death. And in both contexts (therapy and suicide forums) they're something perceived as negative that should be overcome or mitigated somehow. But what if neither is inherently negative? What if they actually have a common function or root cause?

Does anyone else have thoughts about this connection? Would love to hear your best armchair philosopher hot takes! One of the things that make me want to live is getting to have deep and silly philosophical conversations, so this is my recovery strategy.

Lol I was just thinking this and found your post as I was about to make one.

Your post is way deeper and more interesting than mine would've been though.

When you say that both are negative in their respective contexts and must be overcome, what comes to mind to me is the idea of goal setting or wishing for a particular outcome. When a person dedicates or commits to one goal, then a lot of of other concepts start popping up that are negative obstacles.

A way to avoid that is to not be attached to any outcome or goal, either life, death, suicide, sickness, a good life, whatever. So both suicidal ideation and survival instinct become just concepts with no negative or positive value because you have no goals/ values, attachments. Attachment leads to suffering, like the Buddha said (2nd noble truth?) Idk, I got into Buddhism during drug recovery. Highly recommend against sobriety btw, worst experience of my life.

 

[cherrysquick]

ooh very interesting, never noticed this before!! and i agree, they're kinda two sides of the same coin. absolutely love how op described it