Should partners who try to procreate attend mandatory courses how to raise children?

[noname223]

Yeah my this post is one of the: "Look at these insane people in these suicide forums with their crazy ideas. They are fully insane with their nuts ideas." Yeah sorry to fulfill that stereotype.
I personally once posted we might are too harsh towards people who have procreated in this forum. You can search for it I think it was kind of good/thoughtful post. But I won't repeat my argumentation in this thread though.

I think I had this thought because my family ruined my life completely. I am highly disabled due to past abuse, I hate my life, I probably gonna kill myself in the future, the parental abuse destroyed my soul. Sometimes I feel like a part of me is already dead. Something died when I was beaten up as a child on a daily basis. Maybe my sane self. And now I am only consisting of pain, suffering and horrible OCD which replaced my soul. All my behavior is so pathological I am a complete wreck.

Maybe this was a liitle bit off-topic. But I wanted to demonstrate what parents are able to do. And I think my mom always thought of herself as caring and loving mom. I think she was beaten up as a child too. But I think her abuse must have been worse. Everyday was torture as a child. I cried everyday. It was so horrible. I wil never heal from that.
I mean people need a drivers licence. Driving a car is a huge responsibility and can hurt people. This comparison would also fit to procreating. These mandatory courses could save lives of innocent children. For me it is too late but others could be saved. I will never procreate but this is not the topic of this thread.

I think procreating is quite an existential decision. Some don't think this decision through. I once met a girl in clinic. She barely had control about her own life. No job only one clinic stay after the other. I think she was bored and procreated. She even brought the baby once to the clinic. I have met her some months after the clinic stay. It seemed like she lost the interest in her baby fully. She said the baby spends most time with her ex-partner. Yeah wow you are such a wonderful mother aren't you?

I think the costs of those mandatory courses were not that high concernig money. I rather think it contradicts our notion of freedom in our individualistic societies. "You have no right to teach me how I shall raise my kids. If I want that hey beg in the streets for money I have the right to do so." Once I saw children (like 5 years old) begging in the streets for money. In a country like Germany. Go fuck these people. The parents should go to prison for it. Fuck you monsters.

Yeah maybe these courses were not perfect. But if only like 10% of parents would learn how to raise their kids without traumatizing them this would be wonderful.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

We've been over this elsewhere in the forum. It's just going to be used as an excuse to further gatekeep the lower classes and waste resources jailing any of the stupid teenagers that end up doing it. Also even people who take the courses won't be guaranteed to be good parents lots of shitty parents are still well-educated and actively use that to further abuse their children.

 

[Lost Magic]

I just think people should stop procreating, period. But if they have to I think classes on child rearing would be a good thing. So many people are just not fit to be parents though, but they feel pressured by society because they don't know any better. It's sad all round. I am sorry about your childhood trauma. I suffered it too.

 

[Smart No More]

It's fine as an opt in deal but mandating it is a very slippery slope. It's among the first steps to thought policing because if its mandatory it means the guidance is expected to be followed so what's the next logical step when expectations aren't upheld? Legal repercussions or persuasive restristrictions! Who decideds what's right or wrong and polices this?

Don't get me wrong, I'm appalled by a lot of parenting and humans fucking suck on the whole but enforcing change isn't actually change. It's just the illusion of it and just creates the acceptance and inclination towards deceitful psychology.

 

[Alex6216]

It's just going to be used as an excuse to further gatekeep the lower classes

You're saying as if this is a bad thing. Even if this thing means only the uber rich can reproduce I wouldn't care, not reproducing isn't torture.

 

[Niko66]

I would agree 100%. Basic education would go such a long way. God forbid parents be held to any standards because that's an infringement of their autonomy. Yet the children's right to have a decent life is completely ignored and irrelevant.

 

[settheory]

Yes. It wouldn't remove all child abuse but it will reduce it significantly. It would not contradict actual freedom, only a warped notion of freedom some people have. Children have rights and those rights should be actually guaranteed by action, not just declared. Even in developed countries measures of enforcement of child abuse laws are very rudimentary and unreliable, leave many, maybe even majority, of child abusers left unpunished. And some anti-abuse laws that should exist don't. Many people pretend to care about children't rights and to oppose child abuse, but support child abuse by opposing measures that enforce those laws and rights, except maybe most rudimentary and unreliable ones. Anything that would make child abuse harder to do or geberally less likely. And call those measures violation of their freedom and "parental rights". Or rights to abuse children, if we call them what they are. But without enforcement of a law, there is no practically no law. This proposal might even be too little, but in any case it's better than nothing.

 

[rationaltake]

Yes.

Animal shelters vet prospective adopters and their homes. Why should children have less consideration than animals? People often say it's easier to have a kid than it is to be approved for a rescue animal.

 

[Sibyl Vane]

I don't think there's a course that could teach you how to raise a human being, from childhood to adulthood, taking into consideration all its peculiarities and complexities. And if it did wouldn't have any applicability in the real world. There's no cake recipe when raising a child. Also, Who would be administrating it? The government? It sounds like a dream to a totalitarian regime, to be honest. Having the possibility to exercise control and indoctrinate before they are even born at the hands of their own parents. Regardless, I would not like some stranger who knows anything about my morals and beliefs telling me how I should raise my children (yes, I said it) based on their personal vision of the world. Good parents shouldn't be punished for the actions of the bad ones.

 

[rationaltake]

I don't think there's a course that could teach you how to raise a human being, from childhood to adulthood, taking into consideration all its peculiarities and complexities. And if it did wouldn't have any applicability in the real world. There's no cake recipe when raising a child. Also, Who would be administrating it? The government? It sounds like a dream to a totalitarian regime, to be honest. Having the possibility to exercise control and indoctrinate before they are even born at the hands of their own parents. Regardless, I would not like some stranger who knows anything about my morals and beliefs telling me how I should raise my children (yes, I said it) based on their personal vision of the world. Good parents shouldn't be punished for the actions of the bad ones.

I understand where you're coming from.

This subject is close to home for many of us on this forum because we've been used and abused neglected and maltreated at the hands of parents who should never have been allowed near a child. And that's often the reason we're even on here in the first place.

My own parents weren't capable of looking after a stick insect let alone a human being. A lot of people have children without giving it any thought at all. Some people have no idea what looking after a child really entails.

My life was pure hell from day one and I have severe conditions as a result of my upbringing. It's pretty well documented that DID is a result of severe ongoing trauma from an early age. Society has failed any person who has DID.

Children end up with all sorts of difficulties and conditions as a result of inadequate parenting. Child sexual abuse and violence against children are still common. Children still die at the hands of their parents. By the time social services step in - if they even do - it's too late for many children.

It's not a case of punishing good parents for the actions of bad ones. It's a case of protecting children from those people - sadly a lot of people - who aren't fit to be parents at all.

How do we proceed then? I understand people are outraged by the idea of state control of fertility. They immediately scream about eugenics. However I am talking about ensuring that every child has a safe caring and decent home.

I venture to say that it would be good to rethink things. I admit I take the side of the child because of my own experiences. I think the needs of the child take precedence.

I don't understand the idea that people have a right to have children. Also the idea that people own their children - this seems to be the tacit message.

People have to jump through all sorts of hoops to adopt a child legally. Maybe the process involves too much red tape but it seems strange that anybody who can biologically manage it can have as many kids as they like regardless but those who want to adopt are screened and vetted and provided with support. Why is the safety of adopted children effectively more important than that of biological ones?

Maybe there could be a similar process for biological reproduction as for adoption? And or peer support from other parents?

Globally children suffer. They are sold used as child labour and tortured with FGM breast ironing and scarification.

Anyway just some thoughts. Nobody should experience the literal torture that I did.

There is also the question of why people want children which I think is worth looking into.

 

[Sibyl Vane]

I understand where you're coming from.

This subject is close to home for many of us on this forum because we've been used and abused neglected and maltreated at the hands of parents who should never have been allowed near a child. And that's often the reason we're even on here in the first place.

My own parents weren't capable of looking after a stick insect let alone a human being. A lot of people have children without giving it any thought at all. Some people have no idea what looking after a child really entails.

My life was pure hell from day one and I have severe conditions as a result of my upbringing. It's pretty well documented that DID is a result of severe ongoing trauma from an early age. Society has failed any person who has DID.

Children end up with all sorts of difficulties and conditions as a result of inadequate parenting. Child sexual abuse and violence against children are still common. Children still die at the hands of their parents. By the time social services step in - if they even do - it's too late for many children.

It's not a case of punishing good parents for the actions of bad ones. It's a case of protecting children from those people - sadly a lot of people - who aren't fit to be parents at all.

How do we proceed then? I understand people are outraged by the idea of state control of fertility. They immediately scream about eugenics. However I am talking about ensuring that every child has a safe caring and decent home.

I venture to say that it would be good to rethink things. I admit I take the side of the child because of my own experiences. I think the needs of the child take precedence.

I don't understand the idea that people have a right to have children. Also the idea that people own their children - this seems to be the tacit message.

People have to jump through all sorts of hoops to adopt a child legally. Maybe the process involves too much red tape but it seems strange that anybody who can biologically manage it can have as many kids as they like regardless but those who want to adopt are screened and vetted and provided with support. Why is the safety of adopted children effectively more important than that of biological ones?

Maybe there could be a similar process for biological reproduction as for adoption? And or peer support from other parents?

Globally children suffer. They are sold used as child labour and tortured with FGM breast ironing and scarification.

Anyway just some thoughts. Nobody should experience the literal torture that I did.

There is also the question of why people want children which I think is worth looking into.

Firstly I would like to say how sorry I am for everything you went through in your life. I wish there were something I could say or do to ease some of your sufferings. I have also endured several hardships in my life due to bad parenting, so I understand where you are coming from.

I just believe that a mandatory course teaching people how they should parent has the potential to cause more harm than good due to the possibility of being used by the wrong people to push further their own agendas and could also incapacitate the ability of good parents to raise their children in the way they see as being the most beneficial and aligned with their values.

A better way to tackle this issue would be increasing the investment, training, and putting into constant observation the institutions that should be protecting the children. The teachers and hospital professionals should as well be provided with proper training in how to spot those abuses so we could hopefully detect the signs in an early stage. Severer punishments should be implemented for the ones who hurt children. And a more emphatic campaign; educating people on all the different contraceptive methods, and the negative effects of raising a kid in an unstable environment should be put into place.

Of course, these are only a few examples. There's a lot more that could be done to try to remediate the problem. The end goal is always to ensure the children are being protected. We should just be careful in how and who we trust in doing it. There is great danger in providing that much power and control over your life in the hands of people who are eager to use it for their own benefit.

 

[rationaltake]

Firstly I would like to say how sorry I am for everything you went through in your life. I wish there were something I could say or do to ease some of your sufferings. I have also endured several hardships in my life due to bad parenting, so I understand where you are coming from.

Thank you. I'm sorry you endured hardships too. I just wanted to be honest about where I'm coming from.

I just believe that a mandatory course teaching people how they should parent has the potential to cause more harm than good due to the possibility of being used by the wrong people to push further their own agendas and could also incapacitate the ability of good parents to raise their children in the way they see as being the most beneficial and aligned with their values.

The end goal is always to ensure the children are being protected. We should just be careful in how and who we trust in doing it. There is great danger in providing that much power and control over your life in the hands of people who are eager to use it for their own benefit.

I don't disagree with your views at all and I'm not sure that a mandatory course is practical. The people most in need of the course would be the least likely to attend or participate even if it was mandatory. And those organising the course would definitely have their own agenda.

A better way to tackle this issue would be increasing the investment, training, and putting into constant observation the institutions that should be protecting the children. The teachers and hospital professionals should as well be provided with proper training in how to spot those abuses so we could hopefully detect the signs in an early stage. Severer punishments should be implemented for the ones who hurt children.

Yes this should be implemented immediately. We do need these measures to address the current situation.

And a more emphatic campaign; educating people on all the different contraceptive methods, and the negative effects of raising a kid in an unstable environment should be put into place.

I agree that we ultimately need to tackle the source of the problem. I admit I have a radical take on this.

A lot of people still have kids without any thought at all. And accidents still happen. I think it is a rare person who is suited to being a good parent. In a civilised - or ideal - society fewer people would procreate and having a child would be a serious decision.

I think education rather than coercion is the key. And we should remember that economic circumstances and genetic inheritance play a big part in determining how a life pans out. Who wants to inherit a serious illness or be dirt poor?

Managing procreation and death go hand-in-hand. The right to a good home and upbringing is linked to the right to a good death. The emphasis in both cases is on quality of life rather than life for its own sake.

Pro-lifers opposing terminations of pregnancy argue that the unborn child has a right to life and the parents don't have the right to terminate a life. Antinatalists argue that parents don't have the right to bring a child into the world as they will inevitably suffer and the child does not choose to be born.

A possible middle way would be informed responsible parenting and assisted suicide. This would be a radically different society I know but it's not impossible.

 

[Symbiote]

Even with classes, future parents need to have their shit together both mentally and financially to weather the storm of having children. A lot of parents have fucked up kids because they themselves are fucked up and haven't figured each other out when they didn't have kids. Rather they swept all their problems under a rug and forgot about them. Couples need to sort themselves out first before bringing any other person into the world.

 

[RedHarlequin]

Ok, but how do we stop people from fucking? One of the most basic instincts?

 

[rationaltake]

Ok, but how do we stop people from fucking? One of the most basic instincts?

Ha ha. We don't. Just need to disassociate it from procreation.

 

[Zzzzz]

The idea that procreation should be a privilege and not a right is sane. What's insane is thinking a predatory system of evolution is a good place for children.(Life on earth) Most child abuse is done by parents. The greatest threat to a child is it's own parent(s). As long as people continue to have children, there's going to be child abuse in the world. That's just a fact. Parents should be throughly vetted before raising children. Mandatory classes a very good idea. Philosophically speaking I'm antinatalist and would see nothing morally wrong with enforcing it in some way. If people cared about children,they would agree with much stricter birth policies. People likely won't make any sensible decisions in this regard because they are too selfish. People should be allowed to choose whether they live or die ,but not whether someone else lives or dies.

 

[RedHarlequin]

Ha ha. We don't. Just need to disassociate it from procreation.

Idk, the idea sounds pretty good. Some parents are real bad. However, remembering how difficult it was to get people vaccinated during covid, Im pretty sure every sanction that somehow poses real or imagined threat to freedom will be difficult.
I have a feeling that people will still be having kids one way or the other, and then after someone comes around to sanction them, throw them in trash cans or something. Sort of like China.

Unless we put some contraceptive in the water..

 

[Sibyl Vane]

A lot of people still have kids without any thought at all. And accidents still happen. I think it is a rare person who is suited to being a good parent. In a civilised - or ideal - society fewer people would procreate and having a child would be a serious decision.

I think education rather than coercion is the key

A possible middle way would be informed responsible parenting and assisted suicide. This would be a radically different society I know but it's not impossible.

Everything goes back to education.

I'm definitely too conservative on that, you don't need to agree with me, but I honestly believe we don't focus enough of our attention on teaching those young people how to love and respect themselves. We should be ingraining in their heads that their bodies are sacred and should be reserved for only one or a select few special people they will meet in their lifetime. It shouldn't be shared with everyone. I know is not an easy task. We are living in a very hypersexualized world, and it's hard as a parent to control everything your kids are consuming, especially when they hit their teenage years. But I think that mentality is fundamental in creating a society that sees the importance of family and is thoughtful about its decision of when is the appropriate time to have it or if having it is the right decision at all.

 

[rationaltake]

I think that mentality is fundamental in creating a society that sees the importance of family and is thoughtful about its decision of when is the appropriate time to have it or if having it is the right decision at all.

Yes. If only we'd reached that stage.

The idea that procreation should be a privilege and not a right is sane.

This is it in a nutshell.