I did a site search for "meto" with Stan as the user, and I was surprised there were only about 30 comments.
I learned some interesting things. I hope others find them interesting, too. This is a long post, but it's all relevant. I highly recommend others do their own research and not just rely on what someone says because others do.
I noticed Stan was a member for just under four months, I thought it was much longer. His first meto comment was on the SN Megathread, which started in April 2018; he joined in August 2019.
Apparently there was an SN regimen before he wrote the guide. As I've read through some of the threads, I'm making the educated assumption that it came from the PPH. He made this comment on the SN thread only two weeks after he'd joined:
The regime is there to help you to have a higher success rate by not throwing up and lowering stomach acid, its the SN that kills you.
On September 29, he was in a conversation on the megathread discussing someone taking 30g and he was concerned about how much water they'd need for that, just like so many of us who think 20g to 50ml is a whole lot of SN, we don't yet realize that it's very soluble. He was already researching grams to bodyweight rations. They were also discussing at that point in the thread how Nitschke (PN) had gone up on the recommended dose from 30g to 35g! (During those four months, it changed to 20-25g).
I'd love to have a 5 minute chat with PN and ask him about the incremental rises we have seen.
October 22, replying on the SN megathread to someone who couldn't get meto prescribed. It seems at this point he'd already done a lot of research on meto and on the method and was giving advice:
Realistically it is a nice to have. If you can't get it, don't stress. SN will still work
Same day:
The stat dose of meto is the most important. Only need to do the 8 hour fast and in my opinion that is a bit overkill
On October 28 he posted a venting thread about the SN Megathread. The OP pretty much sums up his thoughts on the method being short and sweet, and that
a document such as the guide he authored should be updated if needed. I'm also including this for the humor.
This is a proper vent.
One of the the important things of this site is to share information for people to understand how to cbt painlessly and safely. I'm a big fan of the SN method so I will focus on that one and perhaps people with a focus on the others can say whether it is the same elsewhere. The SN megathread has had over a 1/4 million views! If you were a Youtuber and got that, you would be making some serious money. Why do people view it? Mainly to understand what it is, what you need and how its done. Every pm I get is because people cannot work out fact from fiction regarding the method. All the information you need about SN can fit onto one side of a piece of letter sized paper, 2 if you want the full explanation. Nobody looks at the relevant PPH pages in the resources section. There are over 160 pages on the subject as well as multiple threads appearing daily which adds even more confusion with some of the replies that are more speculation than fact.
The best way to distribute information is to have one single point of truth which can be updated if necessary. If this was a commercial website, they would have paid people called 'content managers' who would make sure that the single point of truth is protected by managing the content through deletions of inaccurate information. This is not a commercial website.
What we have done is become lazy. Instead of searching for information we just make a post or even worse, a new thread. Then a variation of an answer appears and even more confusion comes along.
Personally I would burn down the SN megathread and start it again as it's obvious that for a lot of people it's providing more questions than answers, which means it is doing exactly the opposite of what it is supposed to do.
Rant over
Same thread, more ranting, made me giggle:
Some of the questions beggar belief to me. It as if they are looking for a personal consult from a doctor and I will give some examples to illustrate:
1. Will I be sick?
I don't know! Everyone is different. Taking antiemetics really improve the chance that you won't but even then it is not a guarantee that you won't. Even a doctor with a gold plated stethoscope and every diploma that could be gained can't tell by examining you in person never mind throwing out that question on an anonymous forum!
2. Will I have a seizure?
See answer in principle of question 1
3. Will I go blue?
*eye roll*
4. What if I don't like the taste?
*double eye roll*
5. Will it kill me?
SERIOUSLY?????
6. Will I make noises?
FFS!
7. Will it hurt?
There could be some discomfort during the process, it's not a tickling contest. When it comes to physical pain, headaches (low level ones and not splitting migraines), a bit of a stomach ache perhaps. Fast heart rate which is not painful but I can appreciate it could increase anxiety. Laboured breathing as the body works to try and get more oxygen in, again not painful but could increase anxiety. But you may get no symptoms at all. If you have an underlying physical health condition, then nobody knows how you will react. people can't ask other people for a personal prognosis on how they react to SN. I absolutely understand people want to know. Just need to understand what could happen to you as the worse case scenario and then hope for the best. Again, the worse case scenario with SN is far less then many other methods that are as easy as this to do.
8. Where can I get the regimen drugs?
Countless times this has been answered on this forum.
9. Where can I get SN?
Has there been a worldwide ban on search engines or looking at a few world famous internet marketplaces?
I also see a bunch of threads about certain drugs and overdoses. You could type the same question into google and get an answer from a real medical resource in seconds.
Last few giggles from the rant thread, including an intelligent(ly written) question from a former popular member, I'm sure some folks will appreciate her appearance here.
But I can't deny now that when I see a stupid question or statement that I will respond in kind. I am sure a few complaints will be seen
@Stan, while I have you. I don't have Meto and I'm worried about throwing up. So I'm planning to drink the SN whilst hopping on one leg, dressed as Elvis, singing the national anthem of Estonia. Is that a good substitute?
Normally I wouldn't answer, but as it is you I will. It's not meto - it's Metro, the underground transportation system in Paris. So you have to be on one of those trains as not to throw up. If you have an artificial leg, I suggest labelling the real leg as to make sure you don't make a mistake when choosing which leg to hop on. Singing is not a good idea as you will be drinking - i would suggest using the medium of dance instead to relay Estonian national pride. You can't go wrong with Elvis
Here's an interesting comment he made on someone's thread getting feedback on their regimen. I find it interesting because, in the screenshot of the PPeH I posted in the OP, PN says that fasting and Tagamet are potentiators for rapid gut absorption. Stan's first sentence seems to disagree, but he's talking about the stomach, and at the end it seems that it potentiates passing the SN into the small intestine, where it can be absorbed. I'm not sure who's off here, PN, Stan, both or neither. Anyhow, it seems to me that, like fasting, particular types of antacid are a good idea, and may be more helpful than meto in that they assist the method in working, while meto tries to stop something from happening but may or may not, depending on the person. (Further below, in the most important quotes, meto is also shown to help empty gastric contents, which is minor since the stomach should already be empty from fasting, except for the water taken with supplmental meds.)
The purpose of antacid has nothing to do with quicker absorption of SN. In your stomach there is something called gastric juices, one of the components of this juice is hydrochloric acid (HCL). When SN mixes with HCL, it converts to regular salt. There isn't enough HCL in your stomach to convert all of a 15/20/25gm dose, but it will reduce it. Therefore less SN gets passed to the small intestine where the process of actually transferring it into bloodstream starts. The stomach only prepares the food for digestion, it does not absorb it into the bloodstream. So the purpose of antacid is to help reduce that conversion so more SN moves into the small intestine. Can you be successful without antacid - yes. But seeing that it is the most simplest of the medications to get otc I don't see why you should not. If you can only get a simple solution from your pharmacy, then something is better than nothing.
This next one is particularly interesting. On Nov. 2 Stan posted a comprehensive guide to SN. He'd previously posted a working document, this one was meant to be the final version, but due to comments, he made some adjustments.
Here's why it's interesting and
relevant to the guide needing to be updated for accuracy (which was not an original consideration of this thread).
Stan only lists in the guide five symptoms to be expected after ingesting SN. We know now there are many more (in fact I made a list on the SN successes and failures thread of symptoms reported in success, with percentages, and there were closer to fifteen symptoms). In the second post of this thread, Stan gives his rationale for the symptoms he listed. (
An alternative but potentially dissatisfying solution to altering the guide would be to create a pinned document that lists symptoms and percentages of experience, since these are anecdotal reports and therefore not verifiable.)
Question: People are talking about symptoms that you have not listed, why?
Answer: Those people may be fear mongering, the list above can been seen by searching Hypoxia on the internet.
The next two posts are the most relevant in this comment. Unless I find something to contradict them, I won't be quoting anymore. The first one is very long and
I recommend reading all of it, though I've put certain parts in bold. Stan explains why he wrote the guide, how he came up with the information, and how meto works for the method, which is not significant.
In the second quote, he explains why he never committed to meto as being a necessary part of the regimen -- whether he was correct or in error, I believe this provides sufficient information to clear up the conflicting text in the guide. I'll work on an edit and submit it in this thread for review.
So thanks to those who have said nice things regarding the original post, means a lot. Thanks to those who help to make the next version clearer and more understandable, over the next few days I will make a new updated first post with those inclusions/changes in there and ask the mods to delete this one eventually as not to confuse people with two versions in flight at the same time.
So let me explain how I came to the op. The PPH (specifically in the SN method to me is seemingly designed for those with physical ailments and are not on a cocktail of drugs to assist with their MH issues. A lot of posts here show quite rightly individuals looking at the regimen and highlight concerns with regard to adverse effects with their ongoing treatment. Especially in the areas of meto and acid regulators. In the past I came up with a crazy idea or two on how to get the SN into your system, and then my further research discounted them. So this is the approach I took to how the oral intake of SN could be done specifically for that profile of person.
I got a clean piece of paper and started to track (with 100% help from the internet) the journey of SN from the mouth to the point SN entered the blood stream and all the metabolic processes that the body employs to remove toxins. Also the effect that SN has on our physiology to see if anything can enhance the process in either speed or efficiency. Doing that, I then cross referenced the PPH suggested regimen to understand what component works for what part of the digestive process. Hopefully some people would have noticed that through my research I said that SN is not a practical solution for those that suffer ulcers anywhere in their digestive tract based on this research. That is not in the PPH!
So I am going to go through the 'Sesame Street' version of human digestion so you get closer to why I suggested the above. So you drink the SN, it hits your mouth, nothing there to be seen or done for digestion. Goes down the gullet, meets a sphincter that controls both the entry of food into the stomach and stops gastric juices coming up which will give pain if allowed to do so. Then it hits the stomach. The stomach itself does nothing to send nutrients into the bloodstream. Its a big grinding machine that infuses the 'food' with enzymes and acid to help break down the food into a mush before the sphincter at the bottom end of your stomach allows passage into the small intestine.
Ok - so what is this gastric juices? Well there are a lot of enzymes and this thing called Hydrochloric Acid. A chemical! Interesting! What does that mean? Chemical formula for SN meeting your gastric juices would be 3NaNO2 + 2HCl → 2NaCl + NaNO3 + 2NO + H2O. Still lost me! Can you speak English please? So basically, when SN hits your stomach, the acid there works to convert it into other things such as regular table salt, Nitric oxide, Sodium Nitrate and water. None of those are really what you want. So reducing the HCL prevents SN being converted to something else? Yes, correct. Well how do we minimise this? It needs something to neutralise the HCL acid. More commonly you want to create a chemical reaction like this, Mg(OH)2(s) + 2HCl(aq) → 2H2O(l) + MgCl2(aq). You are at it again Stan! Speak English damn you! OK
- what you need is an antacid with magnesium hydroxide in it. Why do you recommend that one over others? Well there are a number of other alkali that neutralise stomach acid, but this is the most benign on the list and has minimal to no conflict with other medications. It is generally known as Milk of Magnesia. Where do you find that? Any regular pharmacy without prescription. Can I use other non prescription antacid? Yes you can, I just stated Milk of Magnesia as it was the easiest when looking at some other drug interactions. But most are simple and cause no adverse effects.
So the SN is in our stomach, but you said that's not the place where the SN moves into the bloodstream. That's correct! Two main sphincters in the stomach, the one at the top already addressed and the one at the bottom which controls the movement into the small intestine where the nutrients (or SN in this case) transfers (and I am over simplifying this) into the bloodstream.
Ah! So using meto is vital because it moves things faster into the small intestine? No! If you think that the reason Meto exists is for people who have conditions such as Gastroparesis where they cannot pass food very well. The key word here is food. What we are doing if we have followed the fasting process is give the stomach water. Yes, the SN is suspended in water but the stomach isn't a complex lab where it tests everything before it passes it through. But it does recognises two things. One that it is water and the body craves hydration so it will give that substance a priority pass to move to the small intestine. Secondly, the stomach does not need to mash it up to make it easier for the small intestine to cope with.
So what does that mean in conclusion? This is up for your debate and I take no offence in challenges, rebukes or proof that it is wrong. After all, this is a resource to help everyone pass peacefully with minimum stress and discomfort. Remember
my premise for investigating this was that people understood that some of the regimen drugs recommended where in conflict with their existing prescription. Plus my personal opinion that the PPH has over-baked the regimen to reach the end goal (preparing yourself physically to ingest the SN).
| Regimen Drug | Objective of Drug | Alternative view |
| Metoclopramide | antiemetic
Moves food quicker into small intestine | If you have followed the fast. The natural human digestive process will move the liquid quickly into the small intestine to help the body hydrate.
With this fact out of the way, you could then look for an antiemetic that does not conflict with your existing meds (as long as it it the right type) |
| Ranitidine | Reduce stomach acid over a period of time | A drug that will reduce stomach acid but may also have serious interactions with other meds. The goal is to reduce the HCL in the stomach and the same goal can be reached by taking a stat dose of Milk of magnesia. |
[...]Question 3. Nausea for me regarding SN is such a voodoo subject because there are obvious causes for it such as taste and stomach saying "no thanks". But then that does not tally up with medical reports on people passing through accidental exposure. I personally believe the power of the mind is understated when we talk about this. I wish I had a hard, solid scientific answer as I know it is the biggest concern for people, but I don't. people who have taken Meto report vomiting so it is not a guarantee
^
I note that Stan died about three weeks before I joined the forum, and I'd forgotten that for at least my first couple months here, people commonly commented that vomiting may be due to the power of the mind. I always had an internal knee-jerk reaction to that. It felt to me, right or wrong, like a doctor saying something is in a patient's mind, that is, psychosomatic, when there is in fact a physical cause. I've noticed that the popular narrative then changed to meto targeting certain receptors that diphenhydramine (Benadryl) would not, and I'm not sure with what member(s) that originated, I only recall those who seemed to be the most informed about it, and I believe it's addressed in
@Quarky00's pinned SN Resource thread. After Stan, Quarky00 did his own research became the forum SN expert. Now the popular narrative on the forum is that meto is a must, and vomiting is a
common cause of method failure (which I said in a comment on this thread I may research anecdotes to either prove it or debunk it).
Summary/enhanced perspectives:
I think the confusing text in the Guide regarding meto can be edited to clarify Stan's intention. I'll work on that and post here.
Stan's stance was that meto is not necessary. That doesn't mean it's accurate, only that it was his consistent stance.
I believe the SN symptoms listed in the guide should be updated, whether in the guide or a pinned resource for reference. The list of five symptoms came from Stan's Internet research on hypoxia, and I believe we have more accurate information now. I do not believe this list sets up a reasonable expectation. (This wasn't an intention for the thread but came up as I was researching his posts about meto, and vomiting is both a symptom and part of the purpose of this thread.)
Stan's purpose for researching the regimen and tweaking it are explained in the second to last quote. As we know, he wasn't a doctor or a scientist, but someone who was good at researching and digging up information; he called himself a factoid hunter for a reason. He was imperfect, and not all of the information he gathered is conclusive or necessarily accurate. So the guide is exactly that, a guide, not the Bible, any more than the PPH is the Bible.
In comparison, PN is also imperfect but is a doctor; regularly changes doses, alters the protocol, changes ratings, etc.; he doesn't explain his rationale for the elements of the method nor changes; which Stan did; and he doesn't "stand on the shoulders of giants" and list the sources for his rationale, nor did Stan. As a doctor and researcher, PN knows what makes a medical text credible, while I don't know Stan's academic background or career and whether he would have known that references are important for the credibility of both the author and the text. An author's credibility and status can lower or elevate opionions about the text's potential credibility. Stan enjoys a high status of respect on the forum, which I believe has influenced the reception of the guide. PN is a doctor, which influences he reception of the PPH by laypeople and non-academics.
