SA lead to 28 year old woman's death in Netherlands

[NeverGoBack94]

De 28-jarige Marjolein had spijt van de Laatste Wil-pil. Justitie doet nu onderzoek naar de zaak

De 28-jarige Marjolein nam Middel X in, het dodelijke poeder dat de Coöperatie Laatste Wil aanbeveelt aan mensen die over hun eigen dood willen beschikken. Maar Marjolein, die in haar leven er alles aan deed om van haar suïcidale gedachten af te komen, kreeg al snel spijt en belde 112. Volgens...

www.volkskrant.nl

The 28-year-old Marjolein regretted the Last Will pill. Justice is now investigating the case
Maud Effting and Anneke Stoffelen
22–29 minute tia

The 28-year-old Marjolein ingested Middel X, the deadly powder that the Last Will Cooperative recommends to people who want to control their own death. But Marjolein, who did everything in her life to get rid of her suicidal thoughts, soon regretted it and called 911. According to her relatives, she acted on a whim. Now the judiciary is conducting a criminal investigation into the providers of Middel X.
July 3, 2021, 05:00

Marjolein takes two white pills, that September day in 2020. It must have happened at a quarter to three, on Saturday afternoon. While her peers try on dresses in Zara just down the busy shopping street, she is alone in her apartment in the city center of The Hague.

The pills contain Medium X.

Agent X is a preservative, a white powder. It was 'discovered' in 2017 by the Last Will Cooperative, an organization that has been fighting for years to give people the opportunity to end their lives in a dignified way, without the intervention of a doctor. The drug is cheap, it is deadly.

And it only takes a few grams.

Marjolein is 28. She is described by friends and family as energetic, sociable, intelligent, enterprising and impulsive. As someone with humor and self-mockery. She stands out in every company: people often look at her just a little longer. But she is also someone who struggles with life. She is often very unhappy. Most people don't know that. They only get to see the outside.

That afternoon she takes the two white pills as it says on an instruction sheet next to her: with painkillers, anti-emetic and an antacid. Step by step it is described how she should take her own life.

But Marjolein regrets it. Very, very soon.
Suicide powder

Marjolein's mother Yvonne, her boyfriend Nigel and her two best friends tell de Volkskrant what happened to her that day. They want to warn about the working methods of the Last Will Cooperative, the organization that revealed the possibilities of the 'suicide powder'.

They think one thing is that a network of volunteers is spreading a deadly drug for elderly people who are done with life. The fact that the same drug is also given to unstable young people with psychological problems is unacceptable and criminal, according to them. Her mother and her best friend filed a complaint against the cooperative.

Assisted suicide is punishable by law in the Netherlands: giving information is allowed, but anyone who provides a lethal drug to someone who commits suicide with it can be punished with a prison sentence of three years or a fine. The pills are therefore distributed underground, in a network reminiscent of a resistance movement.

The Last Will Cooperative says emphatically not to distribute the drug itself. 'We provide information', says chairman Jos van Wijk. 'We comply with the law.' If it turns out that members do distribute the drug among themselves, Van Wijk is 'very much against it'. According to him, it is fine if members inform each other about where the powder can be ordered.

Figures from the National Poisons Information Center (NVIC), where aid workers report questions about poisonings, show that the ingestion of 'suicide powder' suddenly emerged after Coöperatie Laatste Wil had sought publicity with their 'discovery' in 2017. The reported cases do not only concern elderly people who take control at the end of life, says toxicologist Antoinette van Riel of the NVIC. "There are many cases of people who seem to have taken the stuff on a whim. Certainly not just people over 60, but also people in their thirties, twenties and even some teenagers.'

Justice is now conducting a criminal investigation into Marjolein's case. According to her family, the police have told them that her file is linked to a number of other reports against the Last Will Cooperative, in which suicide powder was also allegedly provided to relatively young people. A spokesperson for the Public Prosecution Service says that it cannot make any announcements about this, "in the interest of the investigation and the relatives".

Chairman Van Wijk is not aware of any criminal investigation. Last Will doesn't feel responsible either, he says. "We do not provide this drug."
arguing for nothing

The night before things go wrong, Marjolein argued with her best friend Levi. It was about something trivial: their vacation to Mallorca. Levi – not his real name; he doesn't want to be recognizable because of his position – he already knew exactly how it would go. They would get furious with each other, block each other on WhatsApp. And then they would make it up again.

As always.

On Saturday morning she already sends him a text message. "We argued over nothing," he reads. "I don't want to argue anymore." He smiles. Marjolein is the fiercest girlfriend he has. She's also one of the cutest. The funniest. Their bond is unbreakable. They see each other every day.

A few hours later, he gets another message. "If you want to say goodbye, do it now," it reads.

I know this, he thinks. She does that often. He is not responding.

It's 2:48 PM when he gets another text message. "Sorry, I love you," it reads. "I love you too," he types back. "And I always will." Great, he thinks.

At the same time, her friend Nigel also receives a text message from Marjolein. "I'm sorry," it reads, "I love you." He looks at his phone in surprise. Regret? Of which? "Is everything okay?" he asks. A while later he sends another text message: "Marjo?" Nothing. He calls her.

The phone was not answered.
Screaming sirens

It is 2:45 pm when the panic strikes. Marjolein calls the GP from her apartment. And immediately after that 112. She says that she has taken Middel X. Ambulances, police cars and the fire brigade drive to her address with sirens screaming. A fire department specialized in chemical substances is also called in.

She stays on the line with 112 for thirteen minutes and forty seconds, but when the emergency services arrive, she is already so weak that she can no longer open the door. The fire brigade smashes in the door.

Marjolein is taken from her apartment on a stretcher. On the table is a folder with a form from the Cooperative Last Will. It seems hastily filled in: the date is only half written down. The box with her membership number is empty.

The folder also contains a pre-printed statement that has not been completed at all. On the A4 page, the user can indicate that he has decided of his own free will, in full sense, without help and on his own initiative to end life with Drug X. The form is intended to protect next of kin or the providers of the deadly drug. But the paper has no signature, no date.



E: Rest I cant post since my system is causing me to do stupid things as condition.

 

[NeverGoBack94]

SA has no antidote unlike SN.
The Volkskrant artcle goes further than this.

The main draw is that SA is deadlier than SN,

 

[Capsicum_Corral]

Continued:

The half-empty forms and the 112 call raise questions. How impulsive was Marjolein's action? Who provided her with those forms? And those pills?

Agent X and the Cooperative Last Will

The 'discovery' of Middel X in 2017 led to an enormous increase in members at the Coöperatie Laatste Wil. There are now around 26 thousand. The CLW arose in 2013 from the Dutch Association for a Voluntary End of Life. While this organization is mainly concerned with the practice of euthanasia, the CLW focuses on making possible a means with which the end of life can be humanely and independently, outside the medical circuit. People who are tired of life should not have to jump in front of a train or from a flat, according to CLW.

In the image of 'completed life', it often concerns elderly people who have already had a whole life behind them and want to be ahead of the decline. In principle, however, the CLW is open to anyone over the age of 18, because in the view of the cooperative it is not up to anyone else to determine at what age someone is done with life. Age says nothing about whether the suffering is bad enough or not, says CLW chairman Van Wijk. According to him, 2 percent of the members are under 40.

Marjolein's case and the figures from the NVIC show that young adults with psychological problems also find their way to the CLW. Critics, such as aid organization 113 Online, fear that the cooperative will lower the threshold for suicide for young people.

On the member forum of the Last Will, 40-somethings discuss their death wish. 'The elderly are indeed in the majority at CLW, but in my living room conversations I regularly meet a young person. Their story is heard just as well as that of people over 80', one Marja reassures the young forum visitors.

'I do not wanna die'

When the ambulance drives at high speed to the Westeinde Hospital in The Hague, Marjolein shakes violently. She's freezing. But she is conscious. "When she arrived, she panicked and asked the nurse, 'Am I going to die? I don't want to die."', says her mother Yvonne.

The emergency room doctors tell her that her condition is serious and that they want to warn her family. But things are going so bad that they can't wait for her mother to arrive. "We're going to put you to sleep," the doctors say. Marjolein gets a breathing tube down her throat.

Half an hour later her mother Yvonne sees a paper from the intensive care doctor who is waiting for her: the instructions for use that Marjolein has taken with her in the ambulance. 'He said, 'She took this. poison."'

Moments later, Yvonne is standing in a room full of beeping devices. She stares at her ashen child, crammed with snakes and threads. Takes her hand. Wipes the sweat from her forehead.

Yvonne: 'Her whole body was fighting. They said they put her to sleep. But she was constantly sobbing. It looked like she was in pain. This remedy is said to be painless and humane. It didn't look like that at all.'

The action of Agent X is irreversible. There is no known antidote to it. The substance stops the energy and oxygen supply in the body cells almost immediately. Anyone who takes in enough will almost certainly die.

The doctors say little about her survival. They do say that Marjolein tried to vomit, so she may not have received the full dose. Her mother fervently hopes that her daughter will recover and that this will be a hard lesson for her. "That it would finally become clear to her that death wasn't an option for her after all."

That night Marjolein's condition is critical. Yet her mother, stepfather and boyfriend are not allowed to stay with her, because of the corona rules.

Not a well-considered decision

"This was an impulse," her mother says. "This was not a well-considered decision."

Marjolein struggled with life, she says. "She often said she wanted to die. It was a compulsive thought that she had been battling for years. One day she said she wanted to die, the next it was: dude, shall we go to Mallorca? Or make plans for a party. She just wasn't stable.'

Marjolein has suffered from insomnia since her early childhood. She has nightmares, panic attacks and depression. She gets all kinds of labels, but no one can quite put her finger on it.

Marjolein tries everything to combat her suicidal thoughts: she goes to clinics, follows the advice of her psychologist. She also talks intensively with some friends. They do what they can. "When she told me the first time that she didn't want to live anymore, I reacted very strongly," says her friend Judith. 'The second time too, just like the third, fourth and fifth time. But on the sixth time, I became silent. Then I didn't know anymore. I felt powerless.' Her friend Nigel: 'All we could do was always be there for her.'

Her mother seeks help from the organization 113 in vain. She also asks the mental health care services for advice and follows a course to deal with her daughter's psychological problems.

Her mother lives in fear, but she is occasionally reassured because Marjolein never finds a good method. "She always said: I want to die, but I don't want to jump in front of the train, I don't want to jump off the apartment and I don't want to slit my wrists," Levi says. 'She only wanted it if it could be done properly. Others were not allowed to suffer trauma.' Marjolein asks for euthanasia at the End of Life Clinic, but they reject her: she is not finished treatment.

And there is always that other, extremely cheerful side. She goes to parties, travels to Curacao, New York, France, Guadeloupe – sometimes on her own. She makes friends everywhere.

'You should not give these deadly drugs to such young people,' says Yvonne. People in their twenties with psychological and psychiatric problems cannot deal with this in a well-considered manner. That Marjolein said she wanted to die – that was a cry for help.'

She wonders what moved the provider of the pills.

Jump out of a burning building

Marjolein's family and friends are not alone in their concerns about the drug. Psychotherapist Ad Kerkhof, emeritus professor of suicide prevention, knows as a therapist four cases of young women, between 26 and 32, who ended their lives with substance X.

He calls the way CLW distributes information 'incompetent' and 'malicious'. "The organization denies the nature of suicidal thoughts, and it does so consciously. Last Will presents suicide as an autonomous, free choice. While we know that most suicidal people don't want to die. But they are so haunted by anxiety, obsessions, and feelings of depression that not committing suicide is even worse. It's not a free choice, it's an act of desperation.'

To explain this, Kerkhof draws a comparison with the people trapped in the burning World Trade Center in New York on September 11, 2001. Some threw themselves from the tower. 'Did those people want to die? New. But the fear they felt of the fire coming at them from above and below was even worse. They wanted to put an end to that.'

According to Kerkhof, the ambivalence described by Marjolein's acquaintances – booking a holiday in the morning, saying you want to die in the evening – is characteristic of people with suicidal thoughts. That is precisely why he finds a low-threshold means of suicide such as the Last Will advocated dangerous. 'If there is a bottle of such a drug on your bedside table, it will be more difficult to resist the urge to use it during a crisis. Suicidal thoughts are usually compulsive and the lure of such a drug can create new obsessions.'

That is also the criticism of the parents of 19-year-old Ximena Knol, who took her own life in 2018. Although she herself ordered a suicide powder on the internet, and it was a slightly different preservative than the substance promoted by the CLW, relatives accuse the cooperative of having inspired Ximena to commit suicide with their publicity.

The idea that people who want to die will find a way anyway, even if there is no suicide powder available, is not consistent with scientific research, according to Kerkhof. 'Usually suicidal people have one method in mind, and if that route is cut off, they don't quickly turn to something else. Research even shows that when suicide is being fought on a certain bridge, people don't drive to the bridge ten kilometers away to jump off it. In countries where the purchase of large amounts of paracetamol has been restricted, you see that suicide attempts with paracetamol are declining and that other methods are generally not used.'

For that reason, the government has tried to cut off access to Middel X. After Last Will generated a lot of publicity with the suicide powder, the minister concluded a covenant with the chemical industry. He promised not to supply the deadly preservative to private individuals anymore.

In addition, the judicial authorities started a criminal investigation in 2018 and threatened to classify CLW as a criminal organization. Last Will then stopped the plans to distribute Middel X itself. The cooperative says it will now stick to providing information - although legally - and organizes living room meetings.

It is obvious that individual members do supply the suicide powder. In 2016, a CLW survey showed that 10 percent of members already had a last-will drug at home, often in much larger quantities than needed for 'personal use'. More than half of these owners said they were willing to share the drug, even if it poses a risk of criminal prosecution.

CLW chairman Van Wijk says that volunteers are urged not to 'trade and deal'. 'We say: if you want to help people, do it outside the cooperative.'

no more hope

Nobody sleeps that night when Marjolein is in the Westeinde hospital. Levi searches the internet for hours to find out how Middel X works. Have people survived this? Mother Yvonne is sitting on the couch in the dark and looking straight ahead. She wonders how lonely her daughter must have been.

That they were sent home has given her vague hopes. But when they return to intensive care on Sunday morning, all chances seem lost. The doctors are busy with her. Her blood pressure drops, her temperature drops.

Yvonne sees it first. To her eyes. "She's gone," she says. It is half past eleven on Sunday morning when Marjolein dies.

Volunteer of Last Will

In the week after her death, Marjolein's friends call off the contact list from her telephone to inform everyone of her death.

Then they see a name, P., which does not seem familiar to them. Friend Judith decides to call. In the conversation she explains that she is a friend of Marjolein and asks P. where she knows Marjolein from.

"Who are you?" the woman asks defensively. 'What do you want?'

When Judith tells that Marjolein has died, the tone changes. "She said she was kind of a counselor," Judith recalls. "She said she'd been in touch with her about the best way to end her life humanely. She said she had given advice on that. The woman asked how Marjolein had done it. When I said that she had taken a poisonous pill, she asked: was it humane?'

"It was a very strange conversation," Judith says.

After she hangs up, she is confused. Only later do the puzzle pieces fall into place. This was presumably a volunteer of the Last Will Cooperative.

Friend Levi suddenly remembers that six months before her death, Marjolein told him that she had found a group of fellow sufferers of people with a death wish. "She was a little vague about it," Levi says now. 'She said that mainly the elderly came, and that they were surprised that she had those thoughts around at such a young age.' Afterwards, Levi thinks that Marjolein was talking about the living room meetings of the CLW. Members there talk about the end of life and about ways to get Resource X.

A week and a half before her death, Marjolein told Judith that she had a deadly drug in the house, but that she did not know when she would start using it. "She was able to tell me exactly how it worked," Judith says. "She said it was blocking the oxygen. That it would go fast. She was glad she had it.'

Judith was shocked. 'I said: what the fuck, how did you get that? Who did you get that from? She said she couldn't tell because she didn't want to get people into trouble.' After the conversation, Judith wasn't sure what to do. This wasn't the first time she'd heard such a thing. Marjolein had said before that she had the 'right cocktail' on hand.

Judith had no idea of the existence of the CLW at the time.

assisted suicide

The phone call with the mysterious P. changes everything. It is only now that the relatives realize that this drug was probably given to Marjolein by someone else. And that this is assisted suicide. A few weeks after her death, Yvonne makes a report.

She disputes the idea that her daughter would have done this otherwise. Besides the fact that Marjolein called 911 herself, there are other indications that she was unsure of her plan. For example, she ordered an expensive mattress two days before taking the pills and increased her sports subscription the day before so that she could go more often. A day after her death, she would go on holiday to Mallorca.

Cooperative Last Will is partly to blame for her daughter's suicide, says mother Yvonne. "They took her life. They have helped someone into the other world who still had so many dreams. She wanted to travel, have children. She was a support to others. If you call yourself a rescuer, you can't talk someone to death. Then you have to offer real help.'

She calls on the CLW to stop providing Middel X to young people (or have it provided). She also hopes that politicians and the judiciary will intervene. 'Do something with this. Performs.'

'I hope that others will also dare to report the crime,' she says. 'This organization talks about self-determination, but with this they also dispose of our lives. No parent should have to go through this. Better to kill one person too few than one person too many.'

-------------------

RESPONSE COOPERATION LAST WILL

'How awful,' says Jos van Wijk, chairman of the Last Wil Cooperative, about Marjolein's case. 'I don't know this situation. If it's an impulse, it's dramatic that it happened this way. But many suicides that seem impulsive are actually not. I know many stories that show that people have been doing this for a long time. We do not provide the remedy. People really have to put in a lot of effort to get their hands on it. We consciously keep it that way.'

The fact that a young person may take it on a whim is no reason for Van Wijk to be reticent in providing information about a last will. 'I'm talking about millions of Dutch people who would like this arrangement. It is a pity that there are a few who act on impulse.'

Van Wijk does not feel comfortable with a higher age limit (now anyone over the age of 18 can become a member). 'Then you force people to live and you don't give them the chance to decide their own life and death.'

 

[NeverGoBack94]

Netherlands is truly paradise, they have legal euthanasia and they have SA.

SA is in pills unlike SN which means it can be ingested easier and with less preparation.

It also has no antidote, if you ingest it, you will die for sure, you can call ambulance just to ease your death.

I have SNand I have had suicidal impulses but mixing it is a chore. If I had SA I could just eat it outright when I become suicidal.

 

[Foresight]

What is SA? Sounds nice.

 

[VoidDesirer22]

De 28-jarige Marjolein had spijt van de Laatste Wil-pil. Justitie doet nu onderzoek naar de zaak

De 28-jarige Marjolein nam Middel X in, het dodelijke poeder dat de Coöperatie Laatste Wil aanbeveelt aan mensen die over hun eigen dood willen beschikken. Maar Marjolein, die in haar leven er alles aan deed om van haar suïcidale gedachten af te komen, kreeg al snel spijt en belde 112. Volgens...

www.volkskrant.nl

The 28-year-old Marjolein regretted the Last Will pill. Justice is now investigating the case
Maud Effting and Anneke Stoffelen
22–29 minute tia

The 28-year-old Marjolein ingested Middel X, the deadly powder that the Last Will Cooperative recommends to people who want to control their own death. But Marjolein, who did everything in her life to get rid of her suicidal thoughts, soon regretted it and called 911. According to her relatives, she acted on a whim. Now the judiciary is conducting a criminal investigation into the providers of Middel X.
July 3, 2021, 05:00

Marjolein takes two white pills, that September day in 2020. It must have happened at a quarter to three, on Saturday afternoon. While her peers try on dresses in Zara just down the busy shopping street, she is alone in her apartment in the city center of The Hague.

The pills contain Medium X.

Agent X is a preservative, a white powder. It was 'discovered' in 2017 by the Last Will Cooperative, an organization that has been fighting for years to give people the opportunity to end their lives in a dignified way, without the intervention of a doctor. The drug is cheap, it is deadly.

And it only takes a few grams.

Marjolein is 28. She is described by friends and family as energetic, sociable, intelligent, enterprising and impulsive. As someone with humor and self-mockery. She stands out in every company: people often look at her just a little longer. But she is also someone who struggles with life. She is often very unhappy. Most people don't know that. They only get to see the outside.

That afternoon she takes the two white pills as it says on an instruction sheet next to her: with painkillers, anti-emetic and an antacid. Step by step it is described how she should take her own life.

But Marjolein regrets it. Very, very soon.
Suicide powder

Marjolein's mother Yvonne, her boyfriend Nigel and her two best friends tell de Volkskrant what happened to her that day. They want to warn about the working methods of the Last Will Cooperative, the organization that revealed the possibilities of the 'suicide powder'.

They think one thing is that a network of volunteers is spreading a deadly drug for elderly people who are done with life. The fact that the same drug is also given to unstable young people with psychological problems is unacceptable and criminal, according to them. Her mother and her best friend filed a complaint against the cooperative.

Assisted suicide is punishable by law in the Netherlands: giving information is allowed, but anyone who provides a lethal drug to someone who commits suicide with it can be punished with a prison sentence of three years or a fine. The pills are therefore distributed underground, in a network reminiscent of a resistance movement.

The Last Will Cooperative says emphatically not to distribute the drug itself. 'We provide information', says chairman Jos van Wijk. 'We comply with the law.' If it turns out that members do distribute the drug among themselves, Van Wijk is 'very much against it'. According to him, it is fine if members inform each other about where the powder can be ordered.

Figures from the National Poisons Information Center (NVIC), where aid workers report questions about poisonings, show that the ingestion of 'suicide powder' suddenly emerged after Coöperatie Laatste Wil had sought publicity with their 'discovery' in 2017. The reported cases do not only concern elderly people who take control at the end of life, says toxicologist Antoinette van Riel of the NVIC. "There are many cases of people who seem to have taken the stuff on a whim. Certainly not just people over 60, but also people in their thirties, twenties and even some teenagers.'

Justice is now conducting a criminal investigation into Marjolein's case. According to her family, the police have told them that her file is linked to a number of other reports against the Last Will Cooperative, in which suicide powder was also allegedly provided to relatively young people. A spokesperson for the Public Prosecution Service says that it cannot make any announcements about this, "in the interest of the investigation and the relatives".

Chairman Van Wijk is not aware of any criminal investigation. Last Will doesn't feel responsible either, he says. "We do not provide this drug."
arguing for nothing

The night before things go wrong, Marjolein argued with her best friend Levi. It was about something trivial: their vacation to Mallorca. Levi – not his real name; he doesn't want to be recognizable because of his position – he already knew exactly how it would go. They would get furious with each other, block each other on WhatsApp. And then they would make it up again.

As always.

On Saturday morning she already sends him a text message. "We argued over nothing," he reads. "I don't want to argue anymore." He smiles. Marjolein is the fiercest girlfriend he has. She's also one of the cutest. The funniest. Their bond is unbreakable. They see each other every day.

A few hours later, he gets another message. "If you want to say goodbye, do it now," it reads.

I know this, he thinks. She does that often. He is not responding.

It's 2:48 PM when he gets another text message. "Sorry, I love you," it reads. "I love you too," he types back. "And I always will." Great, he thinks.

At the same time, her friend Nigel also receives a text message from Marjolein. "I'm sorry," it reads, "I love you." He looks at his phone in surprise. Regret? Of which? "Is everything okay?" he asks. A while later he sends another text message: "Marjo?" Nothing. He calls her.

The phone was not answered.
Screaming sirens

It is 2:45 pm when the panic strikes. Marjolein calls the GP from her apartment. And immediately after that 112. She says that she has taken Middel X. Ambulances, police cars and the fire brigade drive to her address with sirens screaming. A fire department specialized in chemical substances is also called in.

She stays on the line with 112 for thirteen minutes and forty seconds, but when the emergency services arrive, she is already so weak that she can no longer open the door. The fire brigade smashes in the door.

Marjolein is taken from her apartment on a stretcher. On the table is a folder with a form from the Cooperative Last Will. It seems hastily filled in: the date is only half written down. The box with her membership number is empty.

The folder also contains a pre-printed statement that has not been completed at all. On the A4 page, the user can indicate that he has decided of his own free will, in full sense, without help and on his own initiative to end life with Drug X. The form is intended to protect next of kin or the providers of the deadly drug. But the paper has no signature, no date.



E: Rest I cant post since my system is causing me to do stupid things as condition.

Lol I'm not reading all that. Wtf is SA and why do I not have it ?

 

[NeverGoBack94]

What is SA? Sounds nice.

Sodium Azide and CLW members in Netherlands were distributing it.

CLW president and member selling SA was arrested, It was quite effective in causing death.

 

[veryhappyhuman]

SA is an extremely unstable chemical. It can react violently on contact with a lot of common things. There are YT videos on it. If someone without knowledge tries to dispose of the rest after the deed, they could seriously injure themselves and/or cause damage to the property. Even vomit from the person committing suicide can be deadly to others if it gets to metal pipes etc. Not a pro-lifer trying to scare others but this is just the fact.

 

[NeverGoBack94]

SA is an extremely unstable chemical. It can react violently on contact with a lot of common things. There are YT videos on it. If someone without knowledge tries to dispose of the rest after the deed, they could seriously injure themselves and/or cause damage to the property. Even vomit from the person committing suicide can be deadly to others if it gets to metal pipes etc. Not a pro-lifer trying to scare others but this is just the fact.

The SA was in pills wich were in packages so there was less of danger.


__________________________________
Marjolein was f-king rich and was loved by all her family members.

I personally don't understand why she even committed suicide or even chose SA as method of suicide.

 

[veryhappyhuman]

The SA was in pills wich were in packages so there was less of danger.

Yes fair, but even given that, as a potential CTBer I'd be wary of how people would be affected by my bodily wastes like vomit etc (which would contain some raw SA) after I do it. Obviously someone would have to clean up the mess, and it is less likely that they know of the dangers of SA and disposal methods.

 

[Foresight]

To speak on her regret, think fully about this. Think of what in life actually makes you grateful, think of what you love, think of what you are in fact leaving behind. Finding out that you might have had a little bit left in you is not something you want to analyze after ingesting a lethal poison.

I get a little frustrated by this survival instinct alone talk sometimes. I've seen people smoothly blast their brains out. I've seen some clean suicides. I've been low enough and in hopeless enough circumstances that my fear did amount to nearly just SI. Of course we're worried about the method, but is that all? A lot of people are not there. You might be lying to yourself if you think SI alone is your reason for hesitating. You really have to spend some time thinking about that and at least process the grief. It makes for a smoother exit. Suicide is a valid option but do all you can to hopefully have a decent exit.

 

[NeverGoBack94]

CLW even has a website:

Coöperatie Laatste wil

Vanuit de coöperatie Laatste Wil informeren we je graag over de manieren om eigen regie te voeren over het levenseinde.

laatstewil.nu

 

[DisillusionedDragon]

I'm always concerned about blaming someone's suicide on somebody else. In the end it all comes down to the question if somebody was "sound of mind", "mentally stable", "not mentally ill" or however you want to put it. But who is to decide that? How? Where do we draw the line? And why even?

In my opinion there are no satisfying answers to those questions. So I feel like maybe we shouldn't really try to draw a line. We should offer help and resources but I think in the end the only person to "blame" for someone's suicide should be that person themselves.

 

[NeverGoBack94]

I'm always concerned about blaming someone's suicide on somebody else. In the end it all comes down to the question if somebody was "sound of mind", "mentally stable", "not mentally ill" or however you want to put it. But who is to decide that? How? Where do we draw the line? And why even?

In my opinion there are no satisfying answers to those questions. So I feel like maybe we shouldn't really try to draw a line. We should offer help and resources but I think in the end the only person to "blame" for someone's suicide should be that person themselves.

I m classified mentally ill by system (depression of varying intensities, OCD, autism) I know that addctions are not mental illnesses but I have them too.

Even then I could live good life if I didn't have substance abuse problems but those are not mental health problems so how could "mental healthcare" prevent me from killing myself?

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

Is SA painful? I've read about it on here before but I can't remember what they said

 

[demuic]

To speak on her regret, think fully about this. Think of what in life actually makes you grateful, think of what you love, think of what you are in fact leaving behind. Finding out that you might have had a little bit left in you is not something you want to analyze after ingesting a lethal poison.

I get a little frustrated by this survival instinct alone talk sometimes. I've seen people smoothly blast their brains out. I've seen some clean suicides. I've been low enough and in hopeless enough circumstances that my fear did amount to nearly just SI. Of course we're worried about the method, but is that all? A lot of people are not there. You might be lying to yourself if you think SI alone is your reason for hesitating. You really have to spend some time thinking about that and at least process the grief. It makes for a smoother exit. Suicide is a valid option but do all you can to hopefully have a decent exit.

I completely agree. People think they can push themselves toward death when they are not ready and they have not accepted their lives as being over or accepted death and things like this are the result.

'You should not give these deadly drugs to such young people,' says Yvonne. People in their twenties with psychological and psychiatric problems cannot deal with this in a well-considered manner. That Marjolein said she wanted to die – that was a cry for help.'

This is so insulting and condescending to me. That may be the case for some people, but it's not the case for everyone. There is no age limit on suffering. It is backwards how "psychological and psychiatric problems" are used against people in our society, as if that automatically makes you out of touch with reality.

 

[Depressed Cat]

Middel X is indeed sodium azide, NaN3. It was used in car airbags because of its explosive nature, but has now been replaced by other chemicals for that purpose.

It is extremely toxic with no known antidote. It's also quite an unstable compound and can cause explosions when it comes into contact with metals. It hydrolyses in water and acids to form toxic hydrazoic acid, HN3, which can put others at risk.

The Peaceful Pill Handbook recommends SN over SA because of the dangers associated with SA.

However, I didn't know that there was a thriving underground market supplying SA in pill form in Netherlands. That should reduce the dangers associated with mixing SA for a final drink.

CLW is doing good work by helping the elderly who want a peaceful & dignified exit to CTB. It's not their fault if some younger adults CTB using Middel X. I hope CLW have done enough legal homework to avoid prosecution.

Even though her SI kicked in and Marjolein didn't quite have a peaceful exit, I hope she is free of her sufferings and finds eternal peace.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

I completely agree. People think they can push themselves toward death when they are not ready and they have not accepted their lives as being over or accepted death and things like this are the result.


This is so insulting and condescending to me. That may be the case for some people, but it's not the case for everyone. There is no age limit on suffering. It is backwards how "psychological and psychiatric problems" are used against people in our society, as if that automatically makes you out of touch with reality.

The media would make it out to be like there aren't some octogenarian perverts like Sheldon adelson was before his ass was sent to hell .you know MFers like that were salivating over plotting their next war crimes right up until their death

Meanwhile there are legions of unhappy young people in our American/Zionist run world and the media basically just throws up their hands and says "this is wrong because they have tighter skin"

 

[NeverGoBack94]

Is SA painful? I've read about it on here before but I can't remember what they said

I don't know myself since SA is not popular on this forum.

But I know it has no antidote so if you take it (LD) and call ambulance, you will die regardless.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

I don't know myself since SA is not popular on this forum.

But I know it has no antidote so if you take it (LD) and call ambulance, you will die regardless.

That sounds really Gucci to me , very psychologically thrilling to think there is no way out

 

[NeverGoBack94]

Middel X is indeed sodium azide, NaN3. It was used in car airbags because of its explosive nature, but has now been replaced by other chemicals for that purpose.

It is extremely toxic with no known antidote. It's also quite an unstable compound and can cause explosions when it comes into contact with metals. It hydrolyses in water and acids to form toxic hydrazoic acid, HN3, which can put others at risk.

The Peaceful Pill Handbook recommends SN over SA because of the dangers associated with SA.

However, I didn't know that there was a thriving underground market supplying SA in pill form in Netherlands. That should reduce the dangers associated with mixing SA for a final drink.

CLW is doing good work by helping the elderly who want a peaceful & dignified exit to CTB. It's not their fault if some younger adults CTB using Middel X. I hope CLW have done enough legal homework to avoid prosecution.

Even though her SI kicked in and Marjolein didn't quite have a peaceful exit, I hope she is free of her sufferings and finds eternal peace.

SA that she ingested was in pill form. No unwrapping and mixing with water required like with SN.


There is no danger with explosion we SA is in pill form and packaged well.

 

[CiproKilledMe]

Perhaps a stupid question, but if SA explodes when it comes into contact with metal, wouldn't an explosion occur during the autopsy when they're hacking your body apart with various metal instruments? Or is the SA too diluted by that point to be explosive?

 

[NeverGoBack94]

Perhaps a stupid question, but if SA explodes when it comes into contact with metal, wouldn't an explosion occur during the autopsy when they're hacking your body apart with various metal instruments? Or is the SA too diluted by that point to be explosive?

If they know you died of SA why would this even be a problem?

They know how bodies metabolize poisons and will not do any such mistakes.

 

[bad luck]

I envy that country

 

[NeverGoBack94]

Chairman van Wijk is born in 1948.I admire how long he has lived with no incident.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

'How awful,' says Jos van Wijk, chairman of the Last Wil Cooperative, about Marjolein's case. 'I don't know this situation. If it's an impulse, it's dramatic that it happened this way. But many suicides that seem impulsive are actually not. I know many stories that show that people have been doing this for a long time.

This guy seems very level headed, rational, and impartial. Of course, it's always a tragedy when someone realizes its too late to go back, and the grim reality sinks in that they have ended their life mistakenly in an act of passion.

However, the chairman has a point here, that looks can be very deceiving. The woman in the article had been suicidal for many years and had gone so far as to apply for euthanasia. One doesn't seek to traverse the beurocratic labryinth of medically assisted dying unless they've given the decision considerable thought. She likely did experience small bursts of remission, but they were quickly followed by intense urges to ctb.

The mother's comment that she couldn't have been serious because she bought a new bed sort of eclipses this mentality that you have to look or act a certain way to be serious about suicide- not everyone ends up self-saboutaging. I keep a method at hand and have gotten quite close to dying, but that doesn't mean that I stop doing my uni coursework, or buying a new lamp for my room if I need it. I know better than to put myself in a desolate position where I'm forced to die before I feel ready to.

This is something that is often ignored. It may have looked like she had the picture perfect life on the surface. Close friends, traveling, money, etc, but this poor woman suffered for many years with no relief, and no one can make the judgement that it was impulsive or not except the person who carried out the act themselves.

Not to mention, this method seems incredibly painful, for there is no antidote. Without being in the person's shoes, it's impossible to speculate how much pain they could've been in and how this influenced their mindset in those final moments. It's one thing to say you're committed to dying, but you have no idea how your body will react when it's no longer an idea but a tangible reality. All the more important that we always think our decisions through very carefully.

 

[orange]

I envy that country

fr what I'm getting from this is that I want SA