Discussion Revisiting the question "if you were omniscient and knew pro-lifers ahead of time, what would you do?"

[TAW122]

In my previous threads, I had discussed about what would one do against pro-lifers if they knew about them (beyond a reasonable doubt) as well as another thread about where I waged war against them. Then another thread about how we are disadvantaged not only in numbers, resources, and just about every foreseeable way.

As usual, I will still put a disclaimer just as a little reminder.
Disclaimer: I don't endorse, condone, nor support illegal actions or violence and this is simply an educational, intellectual discussion.

With that said, here is the scenario. Suppose you are omniscient (having the ability to be all knowing and all seeing - kinda like psychic, mind reading) and know exactly who is pro-life and pro-choice, even before or without interacting with said person(s) or group of people. Then you noticed that there is a pro-life anti-choice rally going on. Would you go there to take a preemptive strike against these pro-life anti choice suicide preventionists (the people who are against suicide, who will not hesitate to 'save' you and interfere with your plans of wanting to CTB)? Not to mention, they are incongruous, disingenuous, intellectually dishonest, and hypocritical.

In other words, would you go and disrupt their rallies and/or create trouble for them? Keep in mind they are the majority, have many more advantages over us and more. Plus, they (collectively) have messed us and are not respectful of our views and want to push pro-life anti choice sentiments onto us.

Why or why wouldn't you do so? I (myself) would do so because (assuming omniscience and knowing all plus ahead of time) I'd rather not allow them to interfere with me (especially if given the chance), their hypocrisy, and more. Also I have penchant for vengeance, especially for my enemies and the people who threaten my bodily autonomy as well as pro-choice community, but that's another topic altogether. If you would or wouldn't take action against them, explain your reasoning as well as I would interested in seeing other's take on this.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Tempting though it may be, I would prefer not to disrupt them because I don't think it will be helpful to achieve a world with assisted suicide. I think that good faith discussions are what bring progress for the most part, and we need to convince them with sound and polite argumentation. Some may never be convinced, but the global attitude does already seem to be shifting as more people learn about the true nature of reality and how everything is luck and most of experience is subjective. I think that now it is only a matter of time, and regrettably too much time, as we are losing people every day to gruesome and undignified suicides. But it seems the only way, in my opinion. There are ethical, financial, and other problems to tackle in pursuit of a pro-eurthanasia world, such as what should be the age limit (if any), who should pay for such a procedure and how much, how should such a system be set up, and so on. In the end though, achieving this societal milestone is, I believe, of fundamental importance.

 

[OnlyBuilt4Linxs]

Yes and I might just kill one of them too

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

I would cause trouble for them only if I could get away with it. I don't think it'd accomplish anything except provide me with temporary cathartic relief because realistically they'd still be doing the same things over and over again(you can't fix stupid). I'm all for handing out karmic justice as a lot of terrible people do terrible things and aren't held accountable for their actions.

Also, lately for some strange reason I've been imagining calling "wellness checks" on pro-life people that do the very same so I can relate to wanting to get back at them.

 

[TAW122]

Tempting though it may be, I would prefer not to disrupt them because I don't think it will be helpful to achieve a world with assisted suicide. I think that good faith discussions are what bring progress for the most part, and we need to convince them with sound and polite argumentation. Some may never be convinced, but the global attitude does already seem to be shifting as more people learn about the true nature of reality and how everything is luck and most of experience is subjective. I think that now it is only a matter of time, and regrettably too much time, as we are losing people every day to gruesome and undignified suicides. But it seems the only way, in my opinion. There are ethical, financial, and other problems to tackle in pursuit of a pro-eurthanasia world, such as what should be the age limit (if any), who should pay for such a procedure and how much, how should such a system be set up, and so on. In the end though, achieving this societal milestone is, I believe, of fundamental importance.

Indeed, there will be many things to consider if pro-choice voluntary euthanasia is a thing. I do believe that safeguards and screenings would have to be in place to prevent abuse, misuse, ensure the person is really making a decision by their own volition, and of course, to give them an opportunity to change their mind before their final moment (a waiting period). Sadly, there are still many people who are oblivious to the reasons for CTB'ing and still focus more on CTB prevention rather than the reasons that lead up to it.

Note: I don't want to discount the mother in this news story for her loss. Her loss is definitely immense and she has every right to mourn for the loss of her child.

Girl, 15, kills herself 'due to pressure of stay-at-home orders'

The mother of Jo'Vianni Smith, a 15-year-old girl from Stockton, California, said her daughter killed herself due to the pressure of self-isolation amid the COVID-19 pandemic

www.dailymail.co.uk

Yes, while the article addressed that the pandemic (Covid-19) as well as the loss of socialization and getting together with others are major factors for the person taking her own life, they still peddle the obligatory hotline.

Yes and I might just kill one of them too

I don't condone this action for legal reasons, but if in the case of self-defense, then that's a different case.

I would cause trouble for them only if I could get away with it. I don't think it'd accomplish anything except provide me with temporary cathartic relief because realistically they'd still be doing the same things over and over again(you can't fix stupid). I'm all for handing out karmic justice as a lot of terrible people do terrible things and aren't held accountable for their actions.

Also, lately for some strange reason I've been imagining calling "wellness checks" on pro-life people that do the very same so I can relate to wanting to get back at them.

Yeah true, and I will admit, I do fantasize about doing something back to them if I could "legally" get away with it. The latter part, calling wellness checks on pro-life people, I believe that if one brings out too many unsubstantiated and unfounded calls, at the very least, you may lose credibility with authorities so that your future reports might be more likely to be dismissed or disregarded. Then the other potential consequence is if the pro-lifers found out you've been calling lots of frivolous wellness checks on them, it's possible for them to take legal action against you for harassment. I suppose the other way around is true too now that it comes to mind... if pro-lifers utilize wellness checks against us to harry us, we could also consider that as harassment on their part. IANAL so there may be other factors at play too.

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

Yeah true, and I will admit, I do fantasize about doing something back to them if I could "legally" get away with it. The latter part, calling wellness checks on pro-life people, I believe that if one brings out too many unsubstantiated and unfounded calls, at the very least, you may lose credibility with authorities so that your future reports might be more likely to be dismissed or disregarded. Then the other potential consequence is if the pro-lifers found out you've been calling lots of frivolous wellness checks on them, it's possible for them to take legal action against you for harassment. I suppose the other way around is true too now that it comes to mind... if pro-lifers utilize wellness checks against us to harry us, we could also consider that as harassment on their part. IANAL so there may be other factors at play too.

Are you required to use your name to "report" someone or can it be anonymous? If it can be anonymous I'd certainly use it to my advantage to avoid any legal repercussions.

 

[TAW122]

Are you required to use your name to "report" someone or can it be anonymous? If it can be anonymous I'd certainly use it to my advantage to avoid any legal repercussions.

I don't know since I never reported anyone for mental health reasons nor done any wellness check reports to law enforcement.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'm not into vengeance or violence. I prefer dialogue, though they may not be open to dialogue.

If they were having a rally, then I would honor their right to assemble, just as I would want mine honored and want to be safe assembling, because there are many who would consider the pro-choice stance to be dangerous and evil.

In order to do something active, I would either get people together or, if I had to, stand alone outside of their assembly, and quietly hold up signs about choice and calls to have a dialogue. In that way I would use my voice against oppression. Silence encourages the oppressor. I get that many who have lost a loved one to suicide feel oppressed by suicide. I would want to talk to them about that.

I'd like to say, I have been in institutional psychiatric environments when I voluntarily sought help. I have been abused in them. I don't share the stories, but to say it was awful is not a sufficient description, and it was in multiple environments, both public and privately run. It is indeed wrong to force people to go to them for help. I've also been in such environments and was not abused, but nor was I comforted or given practical solutions. Whether benign or abusive, all had the same underlying functions and goals: get on meds, go to cbt and other groups, do some art/light occupational therapy, then go to mental health services in the community to maintain the meds and get therapy. I've worked in and been a recipient of community mental health services, which are dictated to by funding agencies like Medicaid and Medicare and are not geared toward the individual but toward checklists, evidence based practices, and fitting individuals into institutionalized cookie cutter modalities. In one, I was not allowed to see a therapist unless I also saw a psychiatrist and took meds, even though my condition is trauma based, not psychiatric. I was also kicked out of a voluntary stay at a major university hospital because I refused to take meds for the same reason. In short, these systems that are ostensibly meant to help are coercive and inhumane. I would absolutely protest anyone who gathered in support of that as a solution.

However, having been subjected to serious abuse in some of those environments, where I had no power and my autonomy was overridden, I still don't see getting vengeful or violent as a practical solution. They did not take away my self, they did not take away my rationality, and they did not take away my civility. I agree with Seneca that, for me, it is far more wretched to harm than to be harmed. If someone harms me, it is on their conscience; if I harm someone, it is on mine. I'd much prefer to be a Martin Luther King than a bandit queen. I also respect that there are some who would prefer to be a bandit queen (I acknowledge there's hyperbole in the comparison), so I'm not going to climb up on a high platform and point down at her, at them, or the OP, but I'm not going to join them, either. Vengeance and violence turn my stomach. I've been on the receiving end of both, and I never got anything valuable from them. I never learned a lesson if that was intended. This is how I am. I'm good with it. I respect myself. I won't respect myself if I in turn, and in any way, either become like them or become lower in reaction or response to them. I don't seek to be a martyr, but if that makes me one, then I get martyred with my head held high, still in possession of my dignity. If others feel dignity in overt or covert retaliatory aggressions, that's cool, I'm not in charge of their morality, only my own.

 

[TAW122]

@GoodPersonEffed Wow, that's a very thoughtful response and I'm sorry to hear about your mistreatment at psychiatric institutions and what not. I do admire your magnanimous approach towards your oppressors and your willingness to be similar to that of MLK. I think I differ with you on that point, and I take no offense. In fact, I respect your view and decision. The reason that I'm not always willing to always forgive is that (from my life experiences) it puts me in an even more vulnerable position and logically, I do believe that sometimes dirty tactics are needed should playing fair and nice fail to achieve the means (I suppose I could share traits of Malcolm X but that's another story). I do believe that our civility in society and legal system stems from the fact that we give up our primal urges for vengeance and violence and allow the legal system to take care of our disputes and injustices. However, if such a system fails and there is no arbiter nor third party to help us achieve our goals, solve disputes, and find justice, then we must find our own (kind of how ancient humans did before society and a legal system existed) otherwise we just become prey like that of the animals in the food chain of the animal kingdom, but I digress. Once again, I admire your traits and that you would rather get martyred with your head held high rather while having your dignity intact.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@GoodPersonEffed Wow, that's a very thoughtful response and I'm sorry to hear about your mistreatment at psychiatric institutions and what not. I do admire your magnanimous approach towards your oppressors and your willingness to be similar to that of MLK. I think I differ with you on that point, and I take no offense. In fact, I respect your view and decision. The reason that I'm not always willing to always forgive is that (from my life experiences) it puts me in an even more vulnerable position and logically, I do believe that sometimes dirty tactics are needed should playing fair and nice fail to achieve the means (I suppose I could share traits of Malcolm X but that's another story). I do believe that our civility in society and legal system stems from the fact that we give up our primal urges for vengeance and violence and allow the legal system to take care of our disputes and injustices. However, if such a system fails and there is no arbiter nor third party to help us achieve our goals, solve disputes, and find justice, then we must find our own (kind of how ancient humans did before society and a legal system existed) otherwise we just become prey like that of the animals in the food chain of the animal kingdom, but I digress. Once again, I admire your traits and that you would rather get martyred with your head held high rather while having your dignity intact.

Thank you. (Small words felt deeply.)

I just want to clarify, I have not forgiven.

I hadn't thought of this, but MLK held the oppressors accountable. I would do the same. And he had love for the oppressors at the level of shared humanity, and he would not have denied them heaven but wanted to share it, safely and equally; in that way I am the same. To me, violence begets more violence, negativity begets more negativity. Thinking, "I have power and I want power" leads to acts of violence and oppression, and so I would become like those who oppressed and were violent toward me. I fought to become rational, I won't allow them to take it from me with gaslighting and torture. There is always a point that I could be pushed to hit back in anger, I hate those moments, but to methodically plan vengeance is not my way. I'd rather methodically plan strategies for getting out of and for ending violence and oppression.

Anyhow, one definition of forgiveness means no longer holding someone responsible, and I definitely hold them responsible. Another definition is still holding or being held by what someone did. In that sense, I have released some of it, and it doesn't cling to me as much as it did, maybe because I'd already achieved some empowerment and some foundation of self before that happened. I'm not as victimized as I would have been years earlier. But I am still angry and offended, and horrified. However it hasn't pushed me off my foundation that I earned, nor taken the foundation.

I hear your stance. I respect what you're saying.

In thinking about how forgiveness can make you vulnerable, I hear that. There is forgiveness, and then there is reconciliation. Forgiveness is done on one side, reconciliation is a process done on both sides and requires effort. Until one is ready to do the work of reconciliation with me, such as my parents, I may forgive them, but a safe distance must be maintained because they will revert to the same harmful behaviors.

I hear what you're saying about the dirty tactics. If one is going to play with a known cheater, then it would be stupid not to cheat. I'm not good at that, and worse, I'm at a disadvantage because I'm in someone else's arena, in someone else's game, and everything shifts according to their whims, I am not privy to anything. So I step out of the game. I remain my authentic self and approach others as my authentic self no matter the setting. I don't belong in those settings, but I belong in myself. The justice I seek is that boundaries are acknowledged, respected, and honored. It's not going to happen in my lifetime, but I do my best to live what I seek, and sometimes people witness it and the message gets through. I don't think I can do any more than that. I've tried everything else, and this seems to be the only thing that's ever made noticeable difference: I speak out, then I walk my talk, and some hate me, but both some who like me and some who hate me eventually notice that my walk is on a straight and beneficial path and I earn their respect, sometimes even emulation, so that what I want in the world goes further into the world. Some will still think I'm that bitch (or other demeaning names) and/or want me dead and/or want me gone and/or want me to suffer, but what they don't get is to have me at their level or lower. If I could do more to effect change and to protect myself, I would. I took from Gautama that beings have their actions as their refuge and shelter, I find it to be true for me.

I didn't become magnanimous because I'm saintly. It's just what works best. Similarly to you, I am rational, and how I've come to operate has proven to me to be more rational than emotionally beatific. It's grounded and mundane.

Sending a hug. I'm enjoying this dialogue and our mutual respect. Again, thank you for all you said. It meant a lot.

 

[HadEnough1974]

I'm not into vengeance or violence. I prefer dialogue, though they may not be open to dialogue.

If they were having a rally, then I would honor their right to assemble, just as I would want mine honored and want to be safe assembling, because there are many who would consider the pro-choice stance to be dangerous and evil.

In order to do something active, I would either get people together or, if I had to, stand alone outside of their assembly, and quietly hold up signs about choice and calls to have a dialogue. In that way I would use my voice against oppression. Silence encourages the oppressor. I get that many who have lost a loved one to suicide feel oppressed by suicide. I would want to talk to them about that.

I'd like to say, I have been in institutional psychiatric environments when I voluntarily sought help. I have been abused in them. I don't share the stories, but to say it was awful is not a sufficient description, and it was in multiple environments, both public and privately run. It is indeed wrong to force people to go to them for help. I've also been in such environments and was not abused, but nor was I comforted or given practical solutions. Whether benign or abusive, all had the same underlying functions and goals: get on meds, go to cbt and other groups, do some art/light occupational therapy, then go to mental health services in the community to maintain the meds and get therapy. I've worked in and been a recipient of community mental health services, which are dictated to by funding agencies like Medicaid and Medicare and are not geared toward the individual but toward checklists, evidence based practices, and fitting individuals into institutionalized cookie cutter modalities. In one, I was not allowed to see a therapist unless I also saw a psychiatrist and took meds, even though my condition is trauma based, not psychiatric. I was also kicked out of a voluntary stay at a major university hospital because I refused to take meds for the same reason. In short, these systems that are ostensibly meant to help are coercive and inhumane. I would absolutely protest anyone who gathered in support of that as a solution.

However, having been subjected to serious abuse in some of those environments, where I had no power and my autonomy was overridden, I still don't see getting vengeful or violent as a practical solution. They did not take away my self, they did not take away my rationality, and they did not take away my civility. I agree with Seneca that, for me, it is far more wretched to harm than to be harmed. If someone harms me, it is on their conscience; if I harm someone, it is on mine. I'd much prefer to be a Martin Luther King than a bandit queen. I also respect that there are some who would prefer to be a bandit queen (I acknowledge there's hyperbole in the comparison), so I'm not going to climb up on a high platform and point down at her, at them, or the OP, but I'm not going to join them, either. Vengeance and violence turn my stomach. I've been on the receiving end of both, and I never got anything valuable from them. I never learned a lesson if that was intended. This is how I am. I'm good with it. I respect myself. I won't respect myself if I in turn, and in any way, either become like them or become lower in reaction or response to them. I don't seek to be a martyr, but if that makes me one, then I get martyred with my head held high, still in possession of my dignity. If others feel dignity in overt or covert retaliatory aggressions, that's cool, I'm not in charge of their morality, only my own.

In a previous life @GoodPersonEffed you must have been a lawyer. Oh, also a comedian. I often hesitate to respond to a post thinking you would do a better job and you did. Thank you.