Method Replicating the Stickstoff Method. ( Scuba mask method.) Help needed!

[Raum]

Hello friends.
After short discussion with @Greenberg and my own analysis i decided that the best exit option for me would be the scuba method.

I find the nitrogen exit bag option back is overall fickle and it leaves the door open for a lot of user error, while with the scuba method, it us more expensive and harder to prepare but it eliminates most user errors afterwards its set up properly. Valve open, mask on, and were set.


That being said ive been trying to replicate it using the guide let to us behind by a german user on @Greenberg "s blog, but i ran into some issues, that im hoping anyone with knowledge would help me solve, while also serving as another clear method and guide for people to safely replicate ( besides that one, which is in germany, and uses german sources and data. Im in the uk.)

I have found that almost all over the internet, including this blog, the information on SCUBA cbt is SEVERELY lacking. The only real true piece of information being posted on the nitrogen exit blog.
Once and if my issues are solved, this should and could be used as another alternative add on information guide , adding on the previous one, and expanding sources/clearing up questions that haven't been adressed.

So.



I have done my due diligence, and with the help of google lens, i pinpointed and bought the materials necessary as closely matching to the ones being described in the Stickstoff Method.

The mask is the same, albeit from another vendor, pegasus.
I didn't find the exact one from the same vendors, but this seems identical and i can verify its quality, air sealing tightness, and that it fits airtight with the second stage mouthpiece of the regulator.
I had doubts that it won't flush out exhaling if it gets too shallow, but i have tested it and it worked just fine.


The adapter for the cylinder was very hard to find, and i did actually need to buy it from a german site. The 200 bar to 200 bar nitrogen converter. 1 week later it arrived.

Where im facing difficulties currently is the tank- 1st stage regulator connection.

In the Stickstoff method left by scrooge, there was no mention of what kind of valve exit should the tank have, only the pressure ( 200 bar) , purity, sizes, and a chart explaining how it would work.

So i went ahead and bought a tank with those configurations, and low and behold, its a different valve.
The seller told be its a "screwing valve"
As shown in the pictures ill attach, its a female valve, so the adapter has no way of connecting to it.

Another discrepancy i found with the guide is that its stated you need to buy a "200 bar DIN first stage valve".

The problem is.. after lots of googling and digging on scuba forums, the 200 din type regulators are almost extinct.

You couldn't find one even if you wanted, and it's standard for any regulators nowadays to have 300 bar din valves.

After further reading, i didn't bat that much of an eye, because on the forums people said it should be well able to connect to a 200 bar tank, with a 300 bar regulator.

The whole idea being it wont work if you wanted to connect a 200 bar regulator to a 300 bar tank for example.

(But an important note here, is that even that theres the same connection ( DIN) a din 200 connection had 5 metalic threads, and a ( DIN) 300 one, the one i have, has 7-8 threads i think. It is the same type, but longer.)


So thats fine, but back to the tank-1st stage connection.
Because there were no further instructions, i purchased a tank like that, and now im seeing i cant connect it using the adapter.

Is it because of regional differences? If you bought this from germany it would've come with the correct valve being pictured in the guide? Perhaps, but i cant know.

Im from the uk, so i bought what was available.

Apparently, im still able to connect the first stage to the tank without any adapter though. It screws right in.

The problem is.. it doesn't screw all the way in. As you can see, 2 threads are being left out, and i screwed it as far as i could with my bare hand.

Upon the opening of the tank, a very loud hiss is heard, and i can feel the gas escaping around my hands.

I closed it back up, and pressed the purge button on the second stage of the regulator, it pushed out some gas.
Therefore gas flows into the regulator and the hose, but a LOT of it just flows outwards.

I also couldn't test it too much because... Its extremely loud. Pressurised air kind of loud, and i live in shared accomodation.
I sincerely hope it won't make this loud noise once i get the correct fit, because this might throw off my attempt, and a lot of other peoples attempts indefinitely.
Leave this running as is and it would definitely alert people in your house/next room. Hopefully its just so loud because the connection isn't proper.


Could my problem be solved if i buyed a wrench and hard screwed it all the way through?
Would that solve it or break the threads?

Do i need to buy a different adapter/regulator?

What exactly am i missing and what is needed to complete my build?

Any help and knowledge is vastly appreciated, as im doing this first and foremost for myself, and i have no other exit strategy ready if this one falls for some reason.


For now, the pictures of the equipment will be sent on request via private messaging.

 

[AQUA]

You might want to delete the pictures like ASAP they all still have the metadata attached to them!

 

[sunny/omori]

Not to mention you posted your hand...

You already say it. It is leaking out. Just wrench it firm but with no strength. It is enough when you feel it is hard to rotate the wrench. I dont know anything about scuba but @frongermany developed a method with all the equipment needed.That guy got deactivated though.

 

[Raum]

Not to mention you posted your hand...

You already say it. It is leaking out. Just wrench it firm but with no strength. It is enough when you feel it is hard to rotate the wrench. I dont know anything about scuba but @frongermany developed a method with all the equipment needed.That guy got deactivated though.

Well yeah but i needed to know if i could wrench it or if wrenching it would shatter it or not.
I just don't know if they are compatible to begin with.

Its a DIN 300 bar to a screw valve bs 5/8 i think.

You might want to delete the pictures like ASAP they all still have the metadata attached to them!

I will repost them once i get them done properly then.

 

[Shadow777]

I have oxygen bottles for welding and if the threading is anything like that then insulation tape on the male thread should help with leaking. Though I am taking a shot in the dark as I have no idea what these things look like that you mentioned.

 

[Raum]

For now, the pictures of the equipment will be sent on request via private messaging

Heres the pictures. Any thoughts friends?

 

[BeBraveBrother]

Hello friends.
After short discussion with @Greenberg and my own analysis i decided that the best exit option for me would be the scuba method.

I find the nitrogen exit bag option back is overall fickle and it leaves the door open for a lot of user error, while with the scuba method, it us more expensive and harder to prepare but it eliminates most user errors afterwards its set up properly. Valve open, mask on, and were set.


That being said ive been trying to replicate it using the guide let to us behind by a german user on @Greenberg "s blog, but i ran into some issues, that im hoping anyone with knowledge would help me solve, while also serving as another clear method and guide for people to safely replicate ( besides that one, which is in germany, and uses german sources and data. Im in the uk.)

I have found that almost all over the internet, including this blog, the information on SCUBA cbt is SEVERELY lacking. The only real true piece of information being posted on the nitrogen exit blog.
Once and if my issues are solved, this should and could be used as another alternative add on information guide , adding on the previous one, and expanding sources/clearing up questions that haven't been adressed.

So.



I have done my due diligence, and with the help of google lens, i pinpointed and bought the materials necessary as closely matching to the ones being described in the Stickstoff Method.

The mask is the same, albeit from another vendor, pegasus.
I didn't find the exact one from the same vendors, but this seems identical and i can verify its quality, air sealing tightness, and that it fits airtight with the second stage mouthpiece of the regulator.
I had doubts that it won't flush out exhaling if it gets too shallow, but i have tested it and it worked just fine.


The adapter for the cylinder was very hard to find, and i did actually need to buy it from a german site. The 200 bar to 200 bar nitrogen converter. 1 week later it arrived.

Where im facing difficulties currently is the tank- 1st stage regulator connection.

In the Stickstoff method left by scrooge, there was no mention of what kind of valve exit should the tank have, only the pressure ( 200 bar) , purity, sizes, and a chart explaining how it would work.

So i went ahead and bought a tank with those configurations, and low and behold, its a different valve.
The seller told be its a "screwing valve"
As shown in the pictures ill attach, its a female valve, so the adapter has no way of connecting to it.

Another discrepancy i found with the guide is that its stated you need to buy a "200 bar DIN first stage valve".

The problem is.. after lots of googling and digging on scuba forums, the 200 din type regulators are almost extinct.

You couldn't find one even if you wanted, and it's standard for any regulators nowadays to have 300 bar din valves.

After further reading, i didn't bat that much of an eye, because on the forums people said it should be well able to connect to a 200 bar tank, with a 300 bar regulator.

The whole idea being it wont work if you wanted to connect a 200 bar regulator to a 300 bar tank for example.

(But an important note here, is that even that theres the same connection ( DIN) a din 200 connection had 5 metalic threads, and a ( DIN) 300 one, the one i have, has 7-8 threads i think. It is the same type, but longer.)


So thats fine, but back to the tank-1st stage connection.
Because there were no further instructions, i purchased a tank like that, and now im seeing i cant connect it using the adapter.

Is it because of regional differences? If you bought this from germany it would've come with the correct valve being pictured in the guide? Perhaps, but i cant know.

Im from the uk, so i bought what was available.

Apparently, im still able to connect the first stage to the tank without any adapter though. It screws right in.

The problem is.. it doesn't screw all the way in. As you can see, 2 threads are being left out, and i screwed it as far as i could with my bare hand.

Upon the opening of the tank, a very loud hiss is heard, and i can feel the gas escaping around my hands.

I closed it back up, and pressed the purge button on the second stage of the regulator, it pushed out some gas.
Therefore gas flows into the regulator and the hose, but a LOT of it just flows outwards.

I also couldn't test it too much because... Its extremely loud. Pressurised air kind of loud, and i live in shared accomodation.
I sincerely hope it won't make this loud noise once i get the correct fit, because this might throw off my attempt, and a lot of other peoples attempts indefinitely.
Leave this running as is and it would definitely alert people in your house/next room. Hopefully its just so loud because the connection isn't proper.


Could my problem be solved if i buyed a wrench and hard screwed it all the way through?
Would that solve it or break the threads?

Do i need to buy a different adapter/regulator?

What exactly am i missing and what is needed to complete my build?

Any help and knowledge is vastly appreciated, as im doing this first and foremost for myself, and i have no other exit strategy ready if this one falls for some reason.


For now, the pictures of the equipment will be sent on request via private messaging.

May I ask why you think that using the diver mask instead of bag- method is a bit more secure?
One of the main differences is of course that one needs to actively breathe in in order to suck in the nitrogen whereas with the bag the nitrogen is flowing constantly, if enough nitrogen is in the bottle and the items are correctly attached.
Someone once said, that he might find it hard to secure the constant breathing in after consciousness collapsing. The mask bears the risk to let oxygen in if not correctly sealed. The tension to/on the skin may vary during the process which may make the mask not fully attached to the face anymore during the process (I forgot why, but he explained it). All in all it seemed to be more a method for people who are familiar with the breathing and sealing process if they already did some scuba diving...

I don't know if that's right what I am saying, but it totally convinced me and is one of the reasons why I will be using the bag.

If you like you could point out your main concers about the exit bag, it would totally help to clear out for myself where I might maybe need to spend more attention to.

 

[Raum]

May I ask why you think that using the diver mask instead of bag- method is a bit more secure?
One of the main differences is of course that one needs to actively breathe in in order to suck in the nitrogen whereas with the bag the nitrogen is flowing constantly, if enough nitrogen is in the bottle and the items are correctly attached.
Someone once said, that he might find it hard to secure the constant breathing in after consciousness collapsing. The mask bears the risk to let oxygen in if not correctly sealed. The tension to/on the skin may vary during the process which may make the mask not fully attached to the face anymore during the process (I forgot why, but he explained it). All in all it seemed to be more a method for people who are familiar with the breathing and sealing process if they already did some scuba diving...

I don't know if that's right what I am saying, but it totally convinced me and is one of the reasons why I will be using the bag.

If you like you could point out your main concers about the exit bag, it would totally help to clear out for myself where I might maybe need to spend more attention to.

Breathing with the mask is done via a demand valve.
The mask is designed to be air sealed, and if you wanna aid on the side of caution, just overtighten it to account for relaxing of face muscles after death.

With the exit bag you need to struggle with the "whole" practice runs and trying to defeat your SI.

You need to hyperventilate, you cant be laying down, you need to wait until the bag fills, then you need to pull it down and find the perfect "looseness" of two fingers, some people might let it more lose by others by design because its not a fixed thing and were all different.

Then again the god knows how easily the bag could be pierced by anything random around you, be displaced by whatever reason, and overall is a much more frail thing rather than a diving mask strapped to your face.

Compare that to the mask where you literally lie in bed, open the valve, and peace to you.

Death on demand.

I just think theres far less possibilities of things going south with the scuba method once you account for everything. Less room for user error so to speak.

But alas i was unable to make it and i posted my exit bag setup myself, it is what it is.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Isn't there still an issue with being able to rip the mask off just like with the bag method? Maybe that's not the reason for going with a scuba mask over a bag, but the SI is still an issue, is it not?

And don't you just need a pipe nipple to connect the female threads of the tank to the female threads of the mask regular, or whatever it's called?

 

[Raum]

Isn't there still an issue with being able to rip the mask off just like with the bag method? Maybe that's not the reason for going with a scuba mask over a bag, but the SI is still an issue, is it not?

And don't you just need a pipe nipple to connect the female threads of the tank to the female threads of the mask regular, or whatever it's called?

A mask designed for diving and water pressure and a metal/rubber diving regulator vs a plastic oven bag ( that hangs loosely around your head) and a plastic tube.

Go figure which one will be ripped off easier.

Though as i mentioned in my most recent post where ive shown my exit bag setup, i haven't found any sources that state that arm flailing and convulsions are so prevalent and dangerous to warrant arm restraint, but if you find any i would want to know as to adjust my plans accordingly.

Im over this method as nobody was able to help me / i didn't find the right fittings on the UK market, so im going with the classic as well. ( Unfortunately)

 

[locked*n*loaded]

A mask designed for diving and water pressure and a metal/rubber diving regulator vs a plastic oven bag ( that hangs loosely around your head) and a plastic tube.

Go figure which one will be ripped off easier.

Though as i mentioned in my most recent post where ive shown my exit bag setup, i haven't found any sources that state that arm flailing and convulsions are so prevalent and dangerous to warrant arm restraint, but if you find any i would want to know as to adjust my plans accordingly.

Im over this method as nobody was able to help me / i didn't find the right fittings on the UK market, so im going with the classic as well. ( Unfortunately)

Can't you just go to a welding shop and inquire of them? They're the experts.

 

[justamortal]

it seems so complicated

 

[BeBraveBrother]

Breathing with the mask is done via a demand valve.
The mask is designed to be air sealed, and if you wanna aid on the side of caution, just overtighten it to account for relaxing of face muscles after death.

With the exit bag you need to struggle with the "whole" practice runs and trying to defeat your SI.

You need to hyperventilate, you cant be laying down, you need to wait until the bag fills, then you need to pull it down and find the perfect "looseness" of two fingers, some people might let it more lose by others by design because its not a fixed thing and were all different.

Then again the god knows how easily the bag could be pierced by anything random around you, be displaced by whatever reason, and overall is a much more frail thing rather than a diving mask strapped to your face.

Compare that to the mask where you literally lie in bed, open the valve, and peace to you.

Death on demand.

I just think theres far less possibilities of things going south with the scuba method once you account for everything. Less room for user error so to speak.

But alas i was unable to make it and i posted my exit bag setup myself, it is what it is.

Thanks a lot of your explanation.
The mask being "air sealed" make sense under water, but I think someone once said that it is a difference to wear a divers mask under water (pressure of the surrounding water)... but my knowledge is too poor around that.

I am somehow reconsidering if I should use the mask instead of the bag, but unsure now. I just want it to happen fast and without any agony.

I am trying to research on what is happening during the approximatly 15-20 minutes until brain death. Within the first minutes one is loosing awarness. Some say "loose conciousness" but it may be that there is a remaining time with consiousness in a dream-like state...

Normally all brain cells should starve because of the lack of consiousness, but they don't die all at once. That means that different parts of the brain seem to die one after another.
Depeneding on which part dies at what stage, it will be different things one after another that will happen until the whole brain is dead.

What I was wondering about is that in a medical report about the death of a guy who used the scuba method, it is described that his brain has swollen.
In a medical report about a woman who used the exit bag it is being however said that no traces of how she died are detectable in her body. It was only the scene with the exit bag, gas and right-to-die literature around her, that gave it away.

The swollen brain however could indicate that there was still some oxygen involved during the process(?) (not sealed enough?) ...

The different medical reports puzzle me.

 

[GasMonkey]

Heres the pictures. Any thoughts friends?

You just need a DIN 477 No. 10 (W 24.32 x 1/14" RH) cylinder and your setup is finished. It is the German/European standard, used in most EU countries (except the ones that have their own standard).

Both Scrooge and SlovakGuy used DIN 477 No. 10 cylinders (a natural thing coz both were germans).

Scrooge was a total pioneer of the advanced N2 setup, his guide was published on 09/03/2010, 12 years ago!

 

[befree]

The type of equipment (adapter, regulator) depends on where you buy the inert gas cylinder and what gas you want to use.

"was still some oxygen involved during the process(?)" ....If the scuba mask fits tightly there is no oxygen. Also rebreathing of exhault air (which partly contains oxygen) is impossible.

"I am trying to research on what is happening during the approximatly 15-20 minutes until brain death." ...You will be unconscious after a few breaths and dead after 5-10 minutes.

 

[GasMonkey]

not sealed enough?

SCBA and SCUBA masks have a 100% perfect seal (otherwise they would be useless), this is possible due to the demand valve maintaining a possitive pressure inside the mask at all times, so it's physically impossible for the external air to enter the mask.

Think about firefighters that enter fires wearing the SCBA, while doing heavy physical labour at the same time, and the seal never breaks. They are surrounded by extremely toxic fumes for 20mins and they never breath them (only the gas inside the cylinder).

Even if you insert your pinky (lol) inside an SCBA mask you won't break the seal, the demand valve will just increase the pressure accordingly to maintain a pressure some millibars over the ambient pressure (this would increase the gas usage tho).

 

[Howdiditcometothis?]

Bump
Would ptfe tape not help secure that leak.?

I'm looking to do the same very soon. My. Multiple Sclerosis just fucked my throat up big time making it harder to swallow and choking on my saliva now.


It must be possible there was a guy from Scotland on reddit who had got all the equipment. He never posted his method thought.

 

[GasMonkey]

Would ptfe tape not help secure that leak.?

An SCBA has a perfect seal at all times (otherwise firefighters would die), so using tape would be completely unnecessary, but you can use it if it gives you more peace of mind and higher confidence in the setup, which is nice.

 

[Howdiditcometothis?]

Not on the mask. On the valve thread so that it seals the I'll fitting regulator.

 

[GasMonkey]

Not on the mask. On the valve thread so that it seals the I'll fitting regulator.

Assuming you are from The States, you would be using a CGA-580 connection, which isn't designed to be used with PTFE tape.

SCBA and SCUBA masks have a 100% perfect seal (otherwise they would be useless), this is possible due to the demand valve maintaining a possitive pressure inside the mask at all times, so it's physically impossible for the external air to enter the mask.

Important note about this post from July. Later I discovered that a lot of SCUBA demand valves work on non-PP (non positive pressure), but there are PP (Positive Pressure) demand valves too. So for CTB purposes with SCUBA gear, one should check that the demand valve works on PP, which is better/safer than non-PP (that's why it's used by firefighters). I have used a lot of SCBA (which always works on PP) but never SCUBA so I didn't know that at that time.

 

[anasac2002]

Hello friends.
After short discussion with @Greenberg and my own analysis i decided that the best exit option for me would be the scuba method.

I find the nitrogen exit bag option back is overall fickle and it leaves the door open for a lot of user error, while with the scuba method, it us more expensive and harder to prepare but it eliminates most user errors afterwards its set up properly. Valve open, mask on, and were set.


That being said ive been trying to replicate it using the guide let to us behind by a german user on @Greenberg "s blog, but i ran into some issues, that im hoping anyone with knowledge would help me solve, while also serving as another clear method and guide for people to safely replicate ( besides that one, which is in germany, and uses german sources and data. Im in the uk.)

I have found that almost all over the internet, including this blog, the information on SCUBA cbt is SEVERELY lacking. The only real true piece of information being posted on the nitrogen exit blog.
Once and if my issues are solved, this should and could be used as another alternative add on information guide , adding on the previous one, and expanding sources/clearing up questions that haven't been adressed.

So.



I have done my due diligence, and with the help of google lens, i pinpointed and bought the materials necessary as closely matching to the ones being described in the Stickstoff Method.

The mask is the same, albeit from another vendor, pegasus.
I didn't find the exact one from the same vendors, but this seems identical and i can verify its quality, air sealing tightness, and that it fits airtight with the second stage mouthpiece of the regulator.
I had doubts that it won't flush out exhaling if it gets too shallow, but i have tested it and it worked just fine.


The adapter for the cylinder was very hard to find, and i did actually need to buy it from a german site. The 200 bar to 200 bar nitrogen converter. 1 week later it arrived.

Where im facing difficulties currently is the tank- 1st stage regulator connection.

In the Stickstoff method left by scrooge, there was no mention of what kind of valve exit should the tank have, only the pressure ( 200 bar) , purity, sizes, and a chart explaining how it would work.

So i went ahead and bought a tank with those configurations, and low and behold, its a different valve.
The seller told be its a "screwing valve"
As shown in the pictures ill attach, its a female valve, so the adapter has no way of connecting to it.

Another discrepancy i found with the guide is that its stated you need to buy a "200 bar DIN first stage valve".

The problem is.. after lots of googling and digging on scuba forums, the 200 din type regulators are almost extinct.

You couldn't find one even if you wanted, and it's standard for any regulators nowadays to have 300 bar din valves.

After further reading, i didn't bat that much of an eye, because on the forums people said it should be well able to connect to a 200 bar tank, with a 300 bar regulator.

The whole idea being it wont work if you wanted to connect a 200 bar regulator to a 300 bar tank for example.

(But an important note here, is that even that theres the same connection ( DIN) a din 200 connection had 5 metalic threads, and a ( DIN) 300 one, the one i have, has 7-8 threads i think. It is the same type, but longer.)


So thats fine, but back to the tank-1st stage connection.
Because there were no further instructions, i purchased a tank like that, and now im seeing i cant connect it using the adapter.

Is it because of regional differences? If you bought this from germany it would've come with the correct valve being pictured in the guide? Perhaps, but i cant know.

Im from the uk, so i bought what was available.

Apparently, im still able to connect the first stage to the tank without any adapter though. It screws right in.

The problem is.. it doesn't screw all the way in. As you can see, 2 threads are being left out, and i screwed it as far as i could with my bare hand.

Upon the opening of the tank, a very loud hiss is heard, and i can feel the gas escaping around my hands.

I closed it back up, and pressed the purge button on the second stage of the regulator, it pushed out some gas.
Therefore gas flows into the regulator and the hose, but a LOT of it just flows outwards.

I also couldn't test it too much because... Its extremely loud. Pressurised air kind of loud, and i live in shared accomodation.
I sincerely hope it won't make this loud noise once i get the correct fit, because this might throw off my attempt, and a lot of other peoples attempts indefinitely.
Leave this running as is and it would definitely alert people in your house/next room. Hopefully its just so loud because the connection isn't proper.


Could my problem be solved if i buyed a wrench and hard screwed it all the way through?
Would that solve it or break the threads?

Do i need to buy a different adapter/regulator?

What exactly am i missing and what is needed to complete my build?

Any help and knowledge is vastly appreciated, as im doing this first and foremost for myself, and i have no other exit strategy ready if this one falls for some reason.


For now, the pictures of the equipment will be sent on request via private messaging.

May you outline the sticks toffee method. I too am trying to use the scuba method