Discussion Red Flag Laws

[GIGN.Officiel]

What do you think about red flag laws? Does the taking away of one suicide method really fix someone's suicidal urges?

Personally, I think the claim that taking away a gun from someone suicidal prevents them from attempting other ways is bogus. So instead of asking a controlled group, let me ask a forum full of actually suicidal people :

If someone took away your method, would you cease to be suicidal, or would you try again some other way? Would you be honest about it, or would you lie to prevent your other rights and methods from being taken away? Is it truly an impulsive decision for you that can dissipate the second you don't have easy access to your method?

And how angry are you that people really believe these laws work?

In addition, my boyfriend pointed out this after I posted: For those in the US, these laws restrict the rights of those who aren't suicidal or in a bad place. All it takes is a couple people insisting you are, and suddenly you have to prove you're mentally stable to keep your second amendment rights. We suddenly do away with innocent until proven guilty, and that's not okay.

 

[Topaz111]

Another way normies treat suicidal people like children and use their suicidality to trample their freedom.
I would not stop being suicidal if my method was taken away. In fact it would increase the risk of me attempting in a more rushed, less planned out way with an alternate method and cause a higher risk of permanent injury instead of death.
It's one of the many laws that makes normies feel like they are "good people" even though it does nothing to make people less suicidal and in fact makes them less likely to admit of having suicidal thoughts and seeking support.
Every time there is a law that restricts the freedom of a suicidal person, whether by hospitalisation, forced treatment, seizing the means etc., it makes people less likely to speak up about their feelings. This is especially important since, open discussion about suicidal thoughts early on is the best way to prevent impulsive death (though not all suicides are impulsive of course)

 

[PanaxMan]

It's pretty damn bs. I mean the 2nd amendment exists for a reason.

 

[LaetumCat]

I will be speaking as someone outside of the USA, meaning, it's very hard to actually get a gun over here in Europe. Unsurprisingly, my method of choice is not a gun.
But even so, I think even if you take someone's method of choice away, they will still be suicidal. they'll just find another way to CTB. Or another way to obtain a gun.

It's like when you were a child, and you were refused something, then you wanted it more.
Remember when you learnt about the Prohibition era in the USA in history class? Yeah.
Taking away a method doesn't quite do anything.

 

[Rogue_Gendarme]

What do you think about red flag laws? Does the taking away of one suicide method really fix someone's suicidal urges?

See, wanting to die is a simple a desire as, say, wanting to eat or wanting to live. That's to say, even if things improved a little, people would still want to die for a menagerie of reasons. So when you take away one person's preferred food they will eat another, and so on.

This is why prohibition on low-level addiction drugs is fucking horseshit and doesn't take the desire away from people nor address WHY they would get high. So you'll see a ban on marijuana and people would then want to get on more dangerous shit cuz' the low-level harm drug has been banned. Getting into opioids then into more and more harmful stuff. Take away fentanyl and you have a drug race for nitazenes now.

Apply this logic to suicide also. Take away the gun and you'd get the person jumping to death. Take THAT away and you'd get hanging, etc. etc.
This is also applicable to consensual underage sex. The root problem is not addressed (teens wanting to experiment with themselves) and campaigns stopping those shenanigans MUST focus on addressing the root cause, provide alternatives, and at the very least provide safe sex material (condoms, lubes, etc.).


It's fucking stupid. People should have the right to die, the right to get high, etc.

 

[Aflame5926]

What do you think about red flag laws? Does the taking away of one suicide method really fix someone's suicidal urges?

no it will get to extrememer methods. here is the thing. most of us try to go peacefull. do you really want to distrub the train connection for Xth of time of the month because somebody jumped infront of it. or so many people jumped from a building.
the methods will get extremer.

If someone took away your method, would you cease to be suicidal, or would you try again some other way? Would you be honest about it, or would you lie to prevent your other rights and methods from being taken away? Is it truly an impulsive decision for you that can dissipate the second you don't have easy access to your method?

also i would lie to any mental health care. society already shown that honesty is not the way anymore. so why would be honest about it?
i had the thought years and my head. maybe a lot of us have set up conditions boundery of the minimum acceptable life would be. and life just crossed that boundery.
just like how the law works right? be within this parameters or else you get puninished

And how angry are you that people really believe these laws work?

very. the problem is everybody class of suicidal is being group up into one.
that is also makes the treatment being 1 standard which make inhuman experiences.

If think its time to make changes in the law to make it easier. quality of mental health falicities are dropping.
make it count for those that can work for them. but let the ones that already made up their mind go in peace.

its a F joke. optimistic people makes laws about pessimistic people.

 

[Fadenself00_]

very. the problem is everybody class of suicidal is being group up into one.

People who are suicidal because of a chronic illness - like me - are tortured so much by this fact.

Even in cases like mine, suicidality is treated as a totally separate "illness". Almost as if I say I cought a dangerous and highly contagious disease or something.. People group things into broad labels, so unempathetically, like stupid morons.

Instead, people like us would need empathy and understanding, without other people wanting to regain control of the situation by labeling you as ill/dysfunctional/out of your mind, etc..

 

[TAW122]

All the posters on here have excellent answers and here is mine.

I'm a US citizen and I am very much against red flag laws and fortunately, I don't live in a state that has implemented such laws (yet) and hopefully never. I think red flag laws are really just a poor attempt to appear to be helpful, but hide behind a fig leaf/cover for paternalistic interventions and infringment of civil rights under the guise of protection and wellbeing.

Nobody has mentioned this example yet, but suppose for the general populace (normies and non-suicidal people, similar like minded people), if there was certain laws hampering speech or what they could do because of "morals, or any other arbitrary thing (we don't like xyz speech or action)" and laws were made to curtail, limit, or impose restrictions and even enforced (moral, ethics police force), the populace would be taking to the streets and demanding their rights, and general unrest would follow! So yeah red flag laws are nothing more than an pretext and excuse wrapped under the wrapper of benevolence while paternalistically dictating what 'suicidal' people can/cannot do and treating them less than a human being.

Also, I am not a lawyer nor legal expert, but I know that things in the US constitution is considered the Bill of Rights and "shall not be infringed" is a part that I still stand by. This includes the 2nd amendment, the right to bear arms. I believe that any red flag laws are unconstitutional because they violate 'due process' (then again, a lot of people just look past due process and pretend it doesn't exist, even for suspected or accused subjects). Again, not a legal expert or lawyer, but that's my take on it.

As for whether I would continue to be suicidal, yes absolutely, because the conditions that cause my suicidality do NOT cease the moment an option to exit/find peace (through CTB'ing) is taken away. I would resort to other means if I didn't have a reliable method to check out. I definitely will say what I need to say to not have my rights infringed, even telling them what they want to hear ("No I am not suicidal, I'm doing okay, I'm fine, etc.") and be even more protective of what I do (which I've always been and I could never be too careful with my intentions). I don't consider my actions to be impulsive, especially if I made up my mind, continued to and sustained an unwavering wish to die, even if it was drawn out throughout years. I've been suicidal for about all of my adult life and that is not changing anytime soon, barring some exceptionally thing that solved ALL my problems that led to it (nearly zero chance for that in reality..). If I didn't have my reliable method, I would choose other methods and take the next more reliable means, and that is something that I don't want to do for obvious reasons (collateral damage, more brutal end, less reliability, etc.), so I'm protective of what I have.

I would say that I'm quite angry, but also really frustrated at the ignorance, hostility, and even aggressiveness that these people have towards believing that red flag laws work, they don't truly work and only serve to make themselves feel better about themselves and feeling that they 'saved someone', 'prevented suicide' (but only temporary - because the ones who really made up their mind will either try until they succeed, resorting to more desperate (and likely brutal) methods which may even involve unwilling participants, like other people, cops, and more), even though it only pushes the problem underground, did not solve the underlying problem. I suppose 'out of sight, out of mind', virtue signaling (I'm so great I prevented CTB said the forced-lifer, preventionist), etc.

Good discussion thread nevertheless.