Reclarification of why therapy/counseling isn't for me.

[TAW122]

So a while back and even fairly recently, I have made a topic about this, but I just want to explain more clearly of what I meant.

Here is the older thread in regards to the topic.

So therapy is useless because it doesn't help me solve the problems I have, nor does it provide me with anything that I couldn't already figure our or find on my own. I am better off just finding my own solutions or looking elsewhere. Furthermore, paying money and wasting my time with such a pointless endeavor only frustrates me. It is also very dismissive and ignorant when others suggest getting help or seeking therapy. I get that there are some people who benefit from it so it's not ALL useless in the grand scheme of things, it's just that I wished people would stop throwing it around as some golden advice or the solution to every damn problem.

'But it helps you see a new perspective that you otherwise wouldn't!'
I've done lots of meditation on the problems I have and I still arrive at the same conclusion. I am not wasting my time and money to go through the pointless drivel session after session and lining the pockets of these fools. Furthermore, how does that solve problems that I am facing both in the present day and future?

Spoiler

It doesn't.

'But it gives you coping strategies to deal with your issues!'
Ha, I already have multiple ways of coping, and these so called suggestions are a joke. If I wanted to vent, I'd at least go somewhere where no one can hear me and just shout at the top of my lungs until I'm exhausted. Again, when I'm just coping, how does it solve my problems?

Spoiler

Again, it doesn't.

'You just didn't find the right therapist! Try a different one! Keep looking!'
This is a very faulty assumption based on a false and poor premise. The premise is assuming that there exists a therapist person that would help me and that said person will be successful at treating me. Ok, so for the sake of argument, let's say there is. Now, to begin with, most people (including myself) don't have all the time and wealth to throw around to try countless (like dozens or hundreds) therapists and mental health professionals to find that "unique" one. Even if let's say I do happen to find one, there is no guarantee that said person would make a difference and I may just have gone through all the trouble for nothing except lost time and a much smaller wallet. No thanks.

Spoiler

In reality, that is just not possible, let alone worth the effort.

This is the kind of "help" that people keep pushing and insisting in society. If they saw what really happens and goes on, I'm sure they wouldn't be so quick and pigheaded towards this kind of advice (unless they are braindead, delusional, or just beyond ignorant). What a joke. To be fair, yes it does help some people but to assume that it helps everyone and to ignore someone's circumstances is not only ignorant but also very arrogant and rude.

 

[3cookies]

Saying that therapy helps everyone is pretty much the same as saying one cancer treatment will cure everyone.

BTW I love your use of spoilers!

 

[Armadillo]

Wasting money on therapy is bullshit.
It's slightly more effective than placebo (so as far as something can be from being a miracle solution), no one in their right mind would spend hundreds of €/$ a month for a sugar pill or just talking to someone, why doing it with a therapist?

I've seen more than 1 therapist and of course it's been a waste of time, every time. Talking won't fix my life, talking won't fix my brain. No one ever gave me any insight on where my problems may come from or how to manage them, let alone solve.

I'm not AGAINST therapy, it can be a good cope, expecially if you need human contacts or understanding, but that's what it is: a cope.
And when a cope gets too expensive it becomes a bad cope.

Of course you'll find people who claim that therapy changed their lives but the same is true for books, motivational videos on YT, songs, exercise, meditation... everything.
The effectivness of this kind of treatment is, statistically speaking, extremely disappointing... the cost/effectivness ratio is usually just too high.
If you want to try some sort of therapy for free download something like WoeBot.
It's almost as effective and it's totally FREE, even if it doesn't work at least you didn't waste any money.

 

[TAW122]

Yes, for some people, therapy could be a good (albeit expensive) cope, and if they want to throw their money at them, then more power to them. Meanwhile, I'm just going to go with my current copes, which cost far LESS than therapists and what not. I just get really frustrated at how society and the people around me IRL recommend therapy like it's some absolute best solution and if I object to it, then I'm suddenly regarded as negative or combative. I just disregard their advice nowadays or ignore them if they continue to insist or push that idea on me.

Also, In regards to WoeBot, does it collect information or report suicidal ideation, plans, or threats of suicide to authorities? I've never heard of it before, so I'm just curious.

 

[VoloFataliDoce]

I've been to therapy for quite a while and with several different therapists. It's all nonsense. It probably does work for some people, but I rarely leave the therapist's office having been satisfied with the visit. There comes a time when all the coping skills in the world do not work and yet the therapists will be arrogant enough to claim that they do. Mine actually told me "These skills work for everyone in any circumstance you can imagine!" Obviously, he was ignorant to reality. Some people are just wired differently. Therapy isn't a catch-all solution, and people shouldn't pretend that it is.

 

[Armadillo]

Also, In regards to WoeBot, does it collect information or report suicidal ideation, plans, or threats of suicide to authorities? I've never heard of it before, so I'm just curious.

AFAIK it's completely anonymous, it has no "I'm feeling suicidal" button or any way to recognise CTB related words and phrases.
It teaches you about CBT so you can apply it on your thoughts in everyday life.
It teaches you the method, you do the work.

 

[DoNotLet2]

About looking for different therapists. Normal, regular people don't have tons of money and can't drive far away from their town/city. Imagine a situation in which there is a town with a hospital but there is no surgeon capable of performing any surgery. The closes one is 200 kilometers away. What would you say to a person needing a surgery? "Go 200 kilometers to that closest surgeon or even further if they can't have your for various reasons" or "your town is dumb and completely unprepared for any health crisis even a minor one". The second option right? So why are people telling the first option which is less logical?!

I mean there is a second problem, some patients might be unwilling to participate in a therapy but if you are really willing to participate then a therapist should be able to help you. And if therapist can't help you THEY should notice that the therapy isn't working NOT YOU. They are the professionals and if they are lacking knowledge to heal your specific case then they should see it and send you somewhere else. If they find everything fine and you're the one breaking the therapy then something is wrong with the therapist.

 

[TAW122]

I think for why they didn't say that for the 2nd option is that they are afraid of "offending" the patient/person and don't want to come off as rude, so they rather be ignorant, bliss, and polite than knowledgeable, cruel, and rude.

I mean there is a second problem, some patients might be unwilling to participate in a therapy but if you are really willing to participate then a therapist should be able to help you. And if therapist can't help you THEY should notice that the therapy isn't working NOT YOU.

Well said, especially the 2nd sentence. In the mental health professions and fields, they (almost) NEVER admit that their own system is flawed because it would show their incompetence or maybe drive hopelessness in the patient. They would rather (lie and) be dishonest to instill (false) hope in the patient, make money off the patient and put the patient in a therapy, medication cycle that doesn't end until the patient is broke (or dead later on). Sometimes there simply is just no help and people who (falsely) believe that there is a solution for everything or everyone, let alone "reasonable" and attainable ones are really naive in their thinking.

I too, just wished people would admit that the system is flawed and that if a patient questions them or the system, the patient is NOT ill, but rather introspective and perhaps even wise. But no, instead they want to paint the patient negatively by throwing more labels and diagnoses as well as fishing out information to use against the patient (e.g. getting the patient to admit to being a danger or harm to oneself or others) so they can lock them up. I consider therapy to be nothing more than just a fucking interrogation for the most part, say the wrong thing and it can be used against you, plus they aren't interested in listening, understanding (and acknowledging), and working towards a solution other than gaslighting, dismissing, guilt & shame, and then redirecting to inane platitudes and other bluepill (idealistic, unrealistic) bullshit.

Oh and I also wrote really good thread (on Reddit's TTG before it got quarantined) about how talking to MHP's are akin to talking to detectives and law enforcement, the only difference is that it is the mental health system rather than the legal, criminal justice system. Hell, even suspects get treated a bit (not by much but still) better than mental health patients and clients.

 

[DoNotLet2]

I mean what's cruel in saying that a town is badly prepared? XD That's why I said that not everything that is neurotypical is good. Being polite is sometimes a bad choice. Actually I find the first option way more rude because it's basically blaming the victim. "IT'S YOU WHO CAN'T FIND A GOOD THERAPIST, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT", you feel me.

You make lots of threads :P I thought I was the talkative one XD

Honestly I wish you were wrong about therapy... There are some good therapists but there are too few of them. Way too few. Therapy works mostly for simple disorders.
You know what? I think the political correctness is nothing but a censorship but an interesting one. It's not the government who censors you. It's the people! That's why people don't rebel about it too loud. People don't distinguish political correctness and being nice to each other. You're not politically correct, you're a rude ableist, racist and whatever. And that's why I have little hope.

 

[TAW122]

I mean, there are good therapists out there, but like you said, they are the rare minority of them in the sea of many bad or incompetent ones. However, I don't think it is economical nor feasible for an average person to just keep trying until they find that "right" one. We both agree on that point. Also, even if there was that one, whether one is willing to go through all that trouble and toil just to find one, and hope that it will change them is another huge issue to. This is because not everyone's problem can be solved nor do all problems have a (reasonable) solution, so people decide that they don't want to try to fix things anymore and give up.

Anyways, interesting point about the people censoring the unpopular opinions, yes, to a degree that is true and it isn't so much the government, but the majority (of sheeple) who are indoctrinated NPCs and don't really think for themselves simply follow the status quo. Then anything that challenges or disrupts the status quo, gets shot down or quashed before it can flourish. Hence, it is very difficult for even pro-choice movements like ours to get any traction IRL.

 

[DoNotLet2]

I just don't want to insult people who have been really trying, working educating themselves to become a good specialists.
There is another misconception about therapists/psychologists. They say it's just humanities it's good if you can't think clearly and logically enough to pass basic mathematics, because you won't have to think a lot, you will have to memorize a lot. And I say "WAIT, HELL NAH". You can't memorize every disorder out there unless you have supernatural memory which you don't. You have to understand. So if thinking logically hurts you it's not a good idea for you to become a therapist/psychologist. Do something else.
Have you noticed what I noticed? That people with very simple disorders (it can vary so I don't want to say what disorders I mean because what is easy for someone isn't easy for someone else) tend to claim that they have succeed in finding good specialists. While people like us with way more complicated stuff going on tend to say "I can't find any good therapist".
I don't study psychology but from what I'm aware simple conditions are described pretty well while more complicated ones aren't and you have to find links between information about specific disorders. So there is no automatic answer to the question "How do I cure a person with this disorder".
And I think this is the reason why we find it hard to get help. We are simply too hard. But of course it's my opinion things can be way different from what I'm saying.


Yeah they are greatly manipulated. I am amazed by this manipulation. People are dumb. They see they can't control they bodies fully - you can't climb a plain wall, jump 300 feet up or fly. But they don't see the limitation of their minds. Can you learn 5 languages in a month, have always 100% from hardest subjects at school and memorize anything? No, you can't control your mind to that extent. We have little control over our minds but it's not much. Who knows maybe both of us you Throw a way and me DoNotLet2 are manipulated?
I mean people interested in history should be fascinated. It was always like an emperor censoring inconvenient truth and nowadays it's not the emperors. It's dumb fuckin haters who will go after you if you say something inconvenient. Yes status quo must stay even if the status quo is harmful and poses a threat of destruction to the society. This is a disadvantage of democracy and I know nothing about fixing it.

 

[BabyYoda]

I've never been to therapy before, but from my personal experience I can see that in a way the mental health industry is flawed. It's so easy for people to post feel-good inspirational quotes, self care charts, and even fucking suicide hotlines on social media and yet when you try to talk to someone about your personal issues they dismiss you for being "too much". It's rarely talked about that there are more extreme cases than just mild depression and anxiety. And when people encounter those cases, they shy away immediately.

I think one way to soothe this issue (it doesn't eradicate the problem completely, but it will sure help) is to teach people in general the depths of the human mind and the reality of it, not just what they want to hear. This would encourage people not to feel forced to go to therapy and spend a million bucks on it because their support system is already enough for them. Personally I would go to a professional as a last resort when things can't be controlled anymore. But still I would prefer strong relationships and friendships over drugs and people acting like robots.

I'm still hurt with what Person B said to me before. Well it might be my fault partly that I didn't want to help myself because I felt that I wasn't ready yet. He was mad at me because his method of helping me didn't work. I assumed that it was my fault.

The "real" solution for me wasn't journaling, being "grateful" for stuff, or just getting over myself. I wanted someone to listen to me without judgement. Side note: Person B didn't greet me on my birthday. I don't want to be interrogated and shit. I don't want to be accused of self pity when it was THAT HARD to recover. I don't want to be left when I become harder to handle. I don't want to feel that I should be alone unless I change for others. I don't want to feel like a burden.

 

[TAW122]

The "real" solution for me wasn't journaling, being "grateful" for stuff, or just getting over myself. I wanted someone to listen to me without judgement. Side note: Person B didn't greet me on my birthday. I don't want to be interrogated and shit. I don't want to be accused of self pity when it was THAT HARD to recover. I don't want to be left when I become harder to handle. I don't want to feel that I should be alone unless I change for others. I don't want to feel like a burden.

I understand you, I'm like that in many ways too, but in addition to what you said, also, others to respect my decision (it doesn't mean they have to approve or agree to it, but respect it). Sadly, I cannot achieve that IRL and it's too risky to open up, with more risk and danger to me than the other parties.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Oh yeah why therapies are similar? Why can't they adjust the therapy to the patient? Not everybody is so open that will spit it out in 5 minutes. Why is this just one way to do therapy divided into small sections that simply focus on talking in different ways but it's still talking? Maybe another type of therapy would suit you if existed @thrw_a_way1221221

 

[TAW122]

Oh yeah why therapies are similar? Why can't they adjust the therapy to the patient? Not everybody is so open that will spit it out in 5 minutes. Why is this just one way to do therapy divided into small sections that simply focus on talking in different ways but it's still talking? Maybe another type of therapy would suit you if existed @thrw_a_way1221221

Again, I don't want to be rude, but I've already stated multiple times that I don't want "help". I mainly made the thread to clarify why therapy is not helpful for me and gave my reasoning for it. It seems like you are trying to encourage me to get help, which is something that I don't want to nor look for. So ok, I'll bite and just say that suppose there is some therapy xyz that hasn't been discovered or was new and groundbreaking. I still wouldn't for many reasons (not just limited to time, cost, side-effects, and risks) including my own personal choice of such. It just simply doesn't solve the problems that I have and it's very presumptuous to assume there is always a therapy that helps everyone and that all problems can be solved (both of which are far, far from the truth).

Finally, I don't wish to argue about this further as I've already made my points and rest my case.

Edit: Oh ok, now that you have restated your question, I understand more clearly of what you were trying ask. I do apologize for sounding a bit harsh earlier as I mistook it for trying to advocate for therapy.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Ahh you clearly didn't understand. I said why is there just one therapy? Why isn't another kind of therapy that could suit more people? Why don't they just make another thing?
ok ok don't get help idc I apologize.

 

[TAW122]

Ahh you clearly didn't understand. I said why is there just one therapy? Why isn't another kind of therapy that could suit more people? Why don't they just make another thing?
ok ok don't get help idc I apologize.

To answer your question, well, there isn't just one therapy, but most therapy out there is at least talk therapy, just talking to the client/patient about their issues and stuff, which I find is not helpful to the people who already made up their mind and/or are looking for concrete solutions to them. Most of us here are pretty much here because we want to find community and (actual) support as well as being able to discuss taboo subjects like death and suicide, right to die, etc. without censorship and quite a few (including myself) found that therapy isn't useful or has had negative experiences with them while this community will be more willing to lend an ear without the risk and fear of incarceration or persecution.

I'm sure there are other therapies out there and may/not suit other people, however, the successes there are varied. Keep in mind that just because one hears about one or two success stories does not mean that there aren't many other unsuccessful stories out there (you just don't hear about the failures but there is likely to be many more failures than there are of successes). People can easily fall for some sort of positivity bias, meaning that they see all the success stories and examples so they ignore (and overlook) the ones that didn't succeed or not even consider them.

For example, if there was a product review presented to you based with only 10 reviews out of 100 users and only 10 users liked the product while the other 90 hated it, and said company deleted all the negative reviews while only kept the positive reviews, then you would never a chance in hell know about the other 90 users hated said product or didn't find it helpful for them (unless you did some digging or went on your own investigation). For all you know, all 100 users are satisfied with the product, which is far from the truth.

Now back from the tangent. As for why they don't make other therapies, well they do and sometimes they have success (with a fair amount of placebo effect, people believing that things gotten better even though they haven't necessarily gotten better) while other times they didn't.

 

[DoNotLet2]

I mean if you don't understand what I mean then it's better for us to end this discussion right now.

 

[somedude123]

This. Anecdotally speaking (I have little information regarding the competency of therapists/psychologists in general) I find most therapists to be utterly incompetent. Just speaking from experience alone, I've come across therapists that do little to nothing and take ages to start getting to the root of the problem and helping. Just recently I got transferred to a new therapist that in my opinion, has to be the most incompetent of them all (despite being a doctorate in psychology.)

What makes me say this is the fact that I "leave" every session (doing teletherapy because of the covid-19 situation) in a worse mood than when I started. "What does he say that puts you in such a bad mood?" one might ask. Well for starters he already had all the information on me from my previous therapist (they know each other) yet wastes time interrogating me about things he should already know.

But that's just the first session, one session later and we already are arguing over pretty trivial things, but I'm not the one instigating these arguments. He already knows I'm pretty anti-social (that and the fact that I told him myself) yet insists that I should get a job at fast food or somewhere like that, explaining that if I'm more productive it'll increase my mood. After I tell him that will NOT work because being around people generally decreases my mood and that I'd rather find a job where I don't have to interact with hardly anyone, he has the audacity to double down on his initial assertion, saying that it's his expert opinion and insinuating that it supercedes what I know for a fact based on well, "science."

I try and ask for sources for his claims but he immediately dismisses me and continually talks over me and interrupts me spouting that he knows what he's talking about. After this we get into another argument where again he tries to assert things about me that aren't true and basically say that everything he says supercedes any conception I have about myself. The topic this time is love and how I can't feel it. He says I can and his argument for this is based on a really weird and shallow definition of love where basically if anyone ELSE cares about me, that means that I love them. (???)

Now if you're a therapist and you leave your patient in a worse mood than when they enter not only are you not doing your job but you are doing the exact opposite, you have to be a special level of incompetent for something like this to occur, but this isn't even the end. This week (3rd session) we start off pretty weak, as he triples down on his assertion of me getting a job. I tell him if he can recommend a job where I'm around few people I'll be a okay. He doesn't give me any recommendation and instead tries to shift the subject onto what I've been doing/feeling. After I tell him this he starts asking why i feel worthless, after i tell him, he suggests volunteering to do something like pick up litter. I start telling him that I dont think that'll make me feel better about myself bc I'm still just doing a menial task that anyone else can do and that still makes me worthless and easily replaceable, he then starts talking over me again, and not only that but contradicts his previous statements by telling me my feelings don't matter to him, and that I don't want to be helped if I don't just (blindly and without question) follow his suggestions. After that we get into an argument about logic where he fails miserably by insinuating that I can't know the value of something without first doing that thing, which doesn't make sense because a value is just a judgement made subjectively by an individual, and that judgement doesn't require any foresight or knowledge on the subject that the person values/doesn't value. One can intuitively assess the value of something without having to engage with it.


Sometime during this point, I was taking a sarcastic tone with him (sarcasm is how I cope with people's bs) and he has the audacity to be offended and call out my behavior for being rude while talking over me and telling me my feelings didn't matter to him in the same conversation. I'm having a face-to-face session with him next week, however if it pans out like the past few weeks I'll probably give up on therapy altogether. I've already endured years of therapists who mess around, get off topic and waste time, now I'm dealing with something even worse than that.

TL;DR Therapist incompetent, me mad, life sad.

 

[TAW122]

@DoNotLet2 Ok, maybe it's better to just not discuss it further, but I only replied because I misread and mistook your questions. Anyways, yes sure, we agree to disagree then. I'm sorry that I misunderstood you initially and anyways, I hope you accept my apology for my misunderstanding to begin with.

@somedude123 Ugh, reading your story reminds me of the many incompetent mental health professionals out there, including a few that I had, that did what yours did albeit not the same but similar tactics. From what I've read it seems like he did the usual three steps, 1) dismiss and invalidate (which shows in how he approached you and your complaints, claims), 2) gaslighting and guilt & shame (when he starts to double down and accuse you, then when you tried to question his assertions he deflects it and starts to gaslight on you even more), and finally 3) redirecting and then ignoring the actual issue (when he changes subject and starts to go off on different tangents as well as red herrings and strawmans), etc.

I'm really sorry to hear about what a shitty experience you had with him. Though just one word of caution, if you go in to be sarcastic with him, just keep in mind that all mental health professionals are mandated reporters so if you (for any reason or cause) give him any hint of CTB or danger, he may break confidentiality and ring up the authorities (police and what not), so that's just something to keep in mind when you interact with people like him. It seems like he wouldn't hesitate to do that to you and the last thing you ever need is some stupid incompetent mental health professional to make matters worse for you (socially, civilly, and financially). If you decide to quit therapy and never ever come to it again, then I understand and makes sense.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@somedude123, I loved your TL;DR.

You don't have to keep having sessions with this jerk. He's already consistently proven what he's like. He's not going to change. If you find any value in therapy, you can own it and find another therapist. If this is someone assigned to you through an organization like community mental health, Catholic Social Services, or a group practice, you have the right to tell him and/or his supervisor that he is not a fit for you and that you want a different therapist.